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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 12:08:58 GMT 1
Back when the 500 was split between First and Keighley Buses it ran to Hebden Bridge Station and then to Todmorden 3 times a day on the days it ran. On Saturdays there was a trip each way just to/from Hebden Brdge. Since it became hourly and just run by Keighley it hasn't. It's amazing how services that were pretty much infrequent have mostly been upscaled to 1 bus an hour. Services 502, 900/1 and B3 have all been successful with buses being very busy. Maybe Halifax to Oldham could be given a go with the right motivation and advertising to attract people. The 562 was already hourly when they previously tried it (with even an hourly Sunday service at one point) but that didn't stop it's decline. 502,900/1 & B3 also had commercial routes cut/merged into them to help their success what isn't there for a revived 562.
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Post by Bradford Traveller on Feb 2, 2024 13:03:48 GMT 1
Back when the 500 was split between First and Keighley Buses it ran to Hebden Bridge Station and then to Todmorden 3 times a day on the days it ran. On Saturdays, there was a trip each way just to/from Hebden Brdge. Since it became hourly and just run by Keighley, it hasn't. It's amazing how services that were pretty much infrequent have mostly been upscaled to 1 bus an hour. Services 502, 900/1, and B3 have all been successful, with buses being very busy. Maybe Halifax to Oldham could be given a go with the right motivation and advertising to attract people The 502 patronage has additionally been "helped" between Denholme and Keighley by the reduction of the 67 service to hourly. Originally, the 500 ran through to Todmorden as most of the buses were based there, so the registration has remained. It became a tourist bus with the Todmorden leg dropped (as there's a regular bus there), and it was diverted via Haworth Station and Oxenhope station rather than the direct route. To facilitate a more frequent service and reduce costs, it was decided to extend the daytime Keighley – Oxenhope service through to Hebden Bridge instead.
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Post by deerfold on Feb 2, 2024 13:56:29 GMT 1
It's amazing how services that were pretty much infrequent have mostly been upscaled to 1 bus an hour. Services 502, 900/1, and B3 have all been successful, with buses being very busy. Maybe Halifax to Oldham could be given a go with the right motivation and advertising to attract people The 502 patronage has additionally been "helped" between Denholme and Keighley by the reduction of the 67 service to hourly. Originally, the 500 ran through to Todmorden as most of the buses were based there, so the registration has remained. It became a tourist bus with the Todmorden leg dropped (as there's a regular bus there), and it was diverted via Haworth Station and Oxenhope station rather than the direct route. To facilitate a more frequent service and reduce costs, it was decided to extend the daytime Keighley – Oxenhope service through to Hebden Bridge instead. For most people it wasn't anything other than a tourist bus. It only ran daily in summer. Metro wanted an hourly service on the 500. Transdev bid to extend the 663 which was cheaper than anyone running a whole route. I don't remember it ever omitting Haworth station.
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Post by deerfold on Feb 2, 2024 14:01:28 GMT 1
Back when the 500 was split between First and Keighley Buses it ran to Hebden Bridge Station and then to Todmorden 3 times a day on the days it ran. On Saturdays there was a trip each way just to/from Hebden Brdge. Since it became hourly and just run by Keighley it hasn't. It's amazing how services that were pretty much infrequent have mostly been upscaled to 1 bus an hour. Services 502, 900/1 and B3 have all been successful with buses being very busy. Maybe Halifax to Oldham could be given a go with the right motivation and advertising to attract people. I wish the 900/1 were hourly. When they were, there was an easy transfer every hour at Hebden Bridge to/from the B3. Now it's every 70 mins for most of the day the connections are dreadful most hours. Immediately before First withdrew the 502 on weekdays, it ran every hour from 0500 to after 2300 with peak extras. I suspect they thought Metro would immediately pay for a replacement which they were in a good place to win.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 14:42:10 GMT 1
It's amazing how services that were pretty much infrequent have mostly been upscaled to 1 bus an hour. Services 502, 900/1 and B3 have all been successful with buses being very busy. Maybe Halifax to Oldham could be given a go with the right motivation and advertising to attract people. I wish the 900/1 were hourly. When they were, there was an easy transfer every hour at Hebden Bridge to/from the B3. Now it's every 70 mins for most of the day the connections are dreadful most hours. Immediately before First withdrew the 502 on weekdays, it ran every hour from 0500 to after 2300 with peak extras. I suspect they thought Metro would immediately pay for a replacement which they were in a good place to win. I Agree over an hourly 900/1 as it would restore a flat half hourly service between Huddersfield & Stainland. Only issue is how to do it now with the extra running time, it would a require an extra bus & without any interworking it would sit out of use around 25mins each hour. First was correct about Metro paying for a replacement (the 504), but I can see why Metro wouldn't pay to cover the Denholme to Keighley section what had the Half Hourly 696/7 at the time. I'm guessing alongside the 67 reduction/reroute & Denholmes expansion, the 10ph+ TJ Walsh buses lost from the Ovenden corridor would of helped 502s passenger numbers as well. Of course if it's such a 'success' then maybe it needs to be questioned why it's still a funded route rather than being commercial.
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Post by Bradford Traveller on Feb 2, 2024 16:19:05 GMT 1
For most people, it wasn't anything other than a tourist bus. It only ran daily in summer. Metro wanted an hourly service on the 500. Transdev bid to extend the 663, which was cheaper than anyone running a whole route. I don't remember it ever omitting Haworth station. Sorry. I meant MANY YEARS AGO when it became the 500. It was more widely advertised at tourist locations and went through more of Haworth. MANY YEARS AGO ago, most Haworth buses 12 & 56 turned at the biscuit shop at the bottomofthe cobbled hill, and the Keighley – Oxenhope bus 17 & 19 ran directly along the bottom A6033 main road, omitting Haworth, with infrequent buses via Sun Street and Marsh (and infrequent Stanbury buses) before the revision of Haworth buses to regular services on each route.
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Post by deerfold on Feb 2, 2024 17:12:56 GMT 1
For most people, it wasn't anything other than a tourist bus. It only ran daily in summer. Metro wanted an hourly service on the 500. Transdev bid to extend the 663, which was cheaper than anyone running a whole route. I don't remember it ever omitting Haworth station. Sorry. I meant when it became the 500, it was more widely advertised at tourist locations and went through more of Haworth. Years ago, most Haworth buses turned at the biscuit shop at the bottomofthe cobbled hill, and the Keighley – Oxenhope bus ran directly along the bottom A6033 main road, omitting Haworth, with infrequent buses via Sun Street and Marsh (and infrequent Stanbury buses) before the revision of Haworth buses to regular services on each route. Are you going back to when it changed from the 17/19 to the 500? If so, that's before I started catching it! I think my earliest use of the 500 was in about 1989.
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SF07
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Post by SF07 on Feb 5, 2024 19:52:34 GMT 1
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Post by joshben on Feb 5, 2024 20:14:18 GMT 1
Presumably be a few vehicles transferring in with an apparent shortage at Keighley? Lots of single decks appearing on 60/A recently, some very full on through journeys, even more so on the trips following the 40 minute gap! 2716 also appearing on Dalesway services recently though this could be due to a branded B9 being involved in an RTC a few months ago
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Post by stephen01 on Feb 5, 2024 20:46:14 GMT 1
Presumably be a few vehicles transferring in with an apparent shortage at Keighley? Lots of single decks appearing on 60/A recently, some very full on through journeys, even more so on the trips following the 40 minute gap! 2716 also appearing on Dalesway services recently though this could be due to a branded B9 being involved in an RTC a few months ago Don't forget Keighley's having to help cover shortages at Idle too.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Feb 5, 2024 21:44:19 GMT 1
Rosso have some deckers that could come over, but they won’t actually be available until the following week
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Feb 5, 2024 23:04:55 GMT 1
I find it mental the previous improvements increased usage by so much considering it left half the route with a worse service than beforehand If the small boost in frequency like on the local routes can deliver improvements on that level imagine the impact of the 501/X1.
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Post by deerfold on Feb 5, 2024 23:20:40 GMT 1
I find it mental the previous improvements increased usage by so much considering it left half the route with a worse service than beforehand If the small boost in frequency like on the local routes can deliver improvements on that level imagine the impact of the 501/X1. It's not clear if that 28% increase is across the route or just between Shipley and Leeds. Even that would be reasonably impressive in this timescale.
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Post by rwilkes on Feb 5, 2024 23:25:34 GMT 1
It is very impressive, and there will be more passenger growth but it requires a lot of money Improving bus priority and charging commercial rates for car parking can push up bus patroage very impressiveyy for less cost
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Post by northerner on Feb 5, 2024 23:52:05 GMT 1
28% increase in 5 months is impressive. The 60 was a good choice to increase given the reduction in frequency in other services along the route, the difficulty in driving/parking in Leeds city centre and the high level of bus priority between Kirkstall and Leeds. Let's hope once the BSIP money runs out the route can maintain a 20 minute frequency on a commercial basis.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Feb 6, 2024 0:35:32 GMT 1
Not saying it isn’t impressive to see growth, but I bet there is some massaging of the figures
The period since September covers the busy school term, run up to Christmas, rail strikes, possibly rail disruption caused by flooding, and the fact there is no 508 in that area anymore
Depending on what period they are looking at for the ‘before’, it could be the quieter summer period, or a longer period when the 508 still ran
You can make any numbers tell any story you want in my experience
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2024 0:47:16 GMT 1
I know Transdev probably wouldn't release the full numbers but it would be interesting to know the exact numbers, 28% sounds impressive but the sceptical side of me thinks 28% of what? Is it more local journeys or end to end passengers, is it mostly seen in evenings or at peak times, new passengers or existing passengers travelling more often.
I remember going back a few years ago an operator in the West Mids (possibly Diamond) 'saved' a route from the chop then announced usage had increased over 20% within 6 months but when they got asked for further details it turned out it was only about 2-3 passengers per trip. Thinking of that example & knowing Transdevs history of adding their own spin on things makes me wonder.
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Post by mattb7tl on Feb 6, 2024 1:04:07 GMT 1
Good points, I'm always way too trusting in what companies tell us. What would be a better unit of measurement for the increase in patronage or usage?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2024 1:13:31 GMT 1
Good points, I'm always way too trusting in what companies tell us. What would be a better unit of measurement for the increase in patronage or usage? As it would probably be too commercially sensitive for a privatised operator to say the full figures (another reason to introduce franchising) probably saying something like ' x amount of extra journeys per day representing an average x% increase in passenger numbers on Route 60 The K2/3 probably won't be as large increase in reality as they are making out, baring in mind they have always been minibus operated its fair to say they probably averaged 20-25 passengers per trip pre-increase, so a 21% increase would mean an average of 4-5 extra passengers per trip.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Feb 6, 2024 8:51:00 GMT 1
Good points, I'm always way too trusting in what companies tell us. What would be a better unit of measurement for the increase in patronage or usage? As it would probably be too commercially sensitive for a privatised operator to say the full figures (another reason to introduce franchising) probably saying something like ' x amount of extra journeys per day representing an average x% increase in passenger numbers on Route 60 The K2/3 probably won't be as large increase in reality as they are making out, baring in mind they have always been minibus operated its fair to say they probably averaged 20-25 passengers per trip pre-increase, so a 21% increase would mean an average of 4-5 extra passengers per trip. I’m sure if and when franchising does come in, they will be spinning the figures as well. Politicians are masters of spin as we know. You’d hardly get them saying reliability or passenger numbers have gone down, and if they had in a particular case they’d change the methodology some way to create a positive number.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Feb 6, 2024 9:54:45 GMT 1
I know Transdev probably wouldn't release the full numbers but it would be interesting to know the exact numbers, 28% sounds impressive but the sceptical side of me thinks 28% of what? Is it more local journeys or end to end passengers, is it mostly seen in evenings or at peak times, new passengers or existing passengers travelling more often. I remember going back a few years ago an operator in the West Mids (possibly Diamond) 'saved' a route from the chop then announced usage had increased over 20% within 6 months but when they got asked for further details it turned out it was only about 2-3 passengers per trip. Thinking of that example & knowing Transdevs history of adding their own spin on things makes me wonder. There is an amazing amount of cynicism for what is a good news story, 28% growth is a good sign no matter whether there are caveats in reality over what is covered and is good enough for the operator to justify taking the next step in frequency enhancement which I presume would have been the intention when they did the previous improvements. All these comparisons will come with caveats, the growth won't be even across the route, day or week (which will be important on the justification of further enhancement both in extent & detail) and will include both increased usage by existing passengers & new users (& the effect of existing users increasing usage will have different affects on income depending on how they pay & how that changes but broadly has less effect on future development form) which can be difficult to identify without the sort of detailed before & after surveying that few can afford to do (if your existing regulars are using more modern systems or longer term tickets with QR codes you can spot increased usage with a bit of work) but those caveats will be understood by the operator, and where relevant LAs, and any further development will be done with this awareness but this is both 'commercially confidential' and also complicated to communicate to the public clearly without muddying a good news story so rarely will such details become public. The nature of most bus routes is that, except for the busiest or longest routes, average passenger numbers per trip are such that what is a large percentage increase will only be a handful of passengers per trip. In your example from Diamond of 20% 'only' meaning 2-3 passengers per trip, that is doing something like increasing from an average of 15 per trip to 18 per trip which isn't an unusual average per trip on shorter work cycles. It then depends on a number of factors (such as resources, frequency, average fare, journey length etc) as to how significant this may be in terms of contributing to income but if it hasn't required major ongoing financial investment to achieve it is all extra money and even what seems like a small amount may be enough to take a route from a significant loss maker to break even (or even slightly loss making but worth keeping as it has potential to work with) and so be 'saved'.
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Post by astradyne on Feb 6, 2024 11:38:21 GMT 1
As it would probably be too commercially sensitive for a privatised operator to say the full figures (another reason to introduce franchising) probably saying something like ' x amount of extra journeys per day representing an average x% increase in passenger numbers on Route 60 The K2/3 probably won't be as large increase in reality as they are making out, baring in mind they have always been minibus operated its fair to say they probably averaged 20-25 passengers per trip pre-increase, so a 21% increase would mean an average of 4-5 extra passengers per trip. I’m sure if and when franchising does come in, they will be spinning the figures as well. Politicians are masters of spin as we know. You’d hardly get them saying reliability or passenger numbers have gone down, and if they had in a particular case they’d change the methodology some way to create a positive number. If politicians use stats you can FOI for the raw data.
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Post by deerfold on Feb 6, 2024 12:23:35 GMT 1
Good points, I'm always way too trusting in what companies tell us. What would be a better unit of measurement for the increase in patronage or usage? As it would probably be too commercially sensitive for a privatised operator to say the full figures (another reason to introduce franchising) probably saying something like ' x amount of extra journeys per day representing an average x% increase in passenger numbers on Route 60 The K2/3 probably won't be as large increase in reality as they are making out, baring in mind they have always been minibus operated its fair to say they probably averaged 20-25 passengers per trip pre-increase, so a 21% increase would mean an average of 4-5 extra passengers per trip. On the K routes there will be fewer passengers per trip as the increase in passengers is less than the increase in frequency. Hopefully it will continue to increase to match or overtake it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2024 13:36:00 GMT 1
As it would probably be too commercially sensitive for a privatised operator to say the full figures (another reason to introduce franchising) probably saying something like ' x amount of extra journeys per day representing an average x% increase in passenger numbers on Route 60 The K2/3 probably won't be as large increase in reality as they are making out, baring in mind they have always been minibus operated its fair to say they probably averaged 20-25 passengers per trip pre-increase, so a 21% increase would mean an average of 4-5 extra passengers per trip. I’m sure if and when franchising does come in, they will be spinning the figures as well. Politicians are masters of spin as we know. You’d hardly get them saying reliability or passenger numbers have gone down, and if they had in a particular case they’d change the methodology some way to create a positive number. Your correct over politicians & PTEs just being guilty about public spin, but I was meaning the fact that if anyone wanted to it's easier to get factual passenger numbers (increase/decreases) from franchised/nationalised systems via FOI requests compared to privatised companies that can just claim 'commercial sensitivities' to not give them. I know Transdev probably wouldn't release the full numbers but it would be interesting to know the exact numbers, 28% sounds impressive but the sceptical side of me thinks 28% of what? Is it more local journeys or end to end passengers, is it mostly seen in evenings or at peak times, new passengers or existing passengers travelling more often. I remember going back a few years ago an operator in the West Mids (possibly Diamond) 'saved' a route from the chop then announced usage had increased over 20% within 6 months but when they got asked for further details it turned out it was only about 2-3 passengers per trip. Thinking of that example & knowing Transdevs history of adding their own spin on things makes me wonder. There is an amazing amount of cynicism for what is a good news story, 28% growth is a good sign no matter whether there are caveats in reality over what is covered and is good enough for the operator to justify taking the next step in frequency enhancement which I presume would have been the intention when they did the previous improvements. All these comparisons will come with caveats, the growth won't be even across the route, day or week (which will be important on the justification of further enhancement both in extent & detail) and will include both increased usage by existing passengers & new users (& the effect of existing users increasing usage will have different affects on income depending on how they pay & how that changes but broadly has less effect on future development form) which can be difficult to identify without the sort of detailed before & after surveying that few can afford to do (if your existing regulars are using more modern systems or longer term tickets with QR codes you can spot increased usage with a bit of work) but those caveats will be understood by the operator, and where relevant LAs, and any further development will be done with this awareness but this is both 'commercially confidential' and also complicated to communicate to the public clearly without muddying a good news story so rarely will such details become public. The nature of most bus routes is that, except for the busiest or longest routes, average passenger numbers per trip are such that what is a large percentage increase will only be a handful of passengers per trip. In your example from Diamond of 20% 'only' meaning 2-3 passengers per trip, that is doing something like increasing from an average of 15 per trip to 18 per trip which isn't an unusual average per trip on shorter work cycles. It then depends on a number of factors (such as resources, frequency, average fare, journey length etc) as to how significant this may be in terms of contributing to income but if it hasn't required major ongoing financial investment to achieve it is all extra money and even what seems like a small amount may be enough to take a route from a significant loss maker to break even (or even slightly loss making but worth keeping as it has potential to work with) and so be 'saved'. I Admit there might be some cynicism mixed with my scepticism but I never said the increases wasn't good news, more just questioning how good the news really is if you look behind the headline percentages. Thanks for explaining how all the data will be collected, hopefully at some point Transdev might be more willing to put out further figures over the increases as I'm sure there would be ways of doing it without complicating things too much in the communications. Either way it's shaping up to look like West Yorks has done a better job of spending it's BSIP funding compared to alot of other areas.
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Feb 6, 2024 20:00:51 GMT 1
Presumably be a few vehicles transferring in with an apparent shortage at Keighley? Lots of single decks appearing on 60/A recently, some very full on through journeys, even more so on the trips following the 40 minute gap! 2716 also appearing on Dalesway services recently though this could be due to a branded B9 being involved in an RTC a few months ago It will probably be the Gemini 2s from Rochdale coming up
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