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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2023 16:43:48 GMT 1
I would want companies to either go for the Electroliner or the Volvo BZL. I've seen the electroliners and friends have told me they're quite good. I see Stagecoach aren't going ADL anymore, they've gone down the Volvo route, with huge orders for the BZL's both Single and Double deckers. Stagecoach are going for a mix, as they have some of the new Enviro 400EVs on order for Oxford. One of the managers at Transdev did tweet a couple of days ago a hint/teaser over the E400EV for route 36 so i'd guess that's the the current favourite to be ordered.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2023 16:47:00 GMT 1
I would want companies to either go for the Electroliner or the Volvo BZL. I've seen the electroliners and friends have told me they're quite good. I see Stagecoach aren't going ADL anymore, they've gone down the Volvo route, with huge orders for the BZL's both Single and Double deckers. Stagecoach are going for a mix, as they have some of the new Enviro 400EVs on order for Oxford. One of the managers at Transdev did tweet a couple of days ago a hint/teaser over the E400EV for route 36 so i'd guess that's the the current favourite to be ordered. In the past though Stagecoach have always mostly gone for ADL or Scania, just seems strange now, they started buying Volvo all of a sudden. I'm curious of what Arriva will go for, within the electrics.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2023 16:49:31 GMT 1
Stagecoach are going for a mix, as they have some of the new Enviro 400EVs on order for Oxford. One of the managers at Transdev did tweet a couple of days ago a hint/teaser over the E400EV for route 36 so i'd guess that's the the current favourite to be ordered. In the past though Stagecoach have always mostly gone for ADL or Scania, just seems strange now, they started buying Volvo all of a sudden. I'm curious of what Arriva will go for, within the electrics. Probably due to Stagecoach being under new ownership, the last previous owners had shares in ADL so no surprise most of their orders went there.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jun 5, 2023 7:58:50 GMT 1
Stagecoach are going for a mix, as they have some of the new Enviro 400EVs on order for Oxford. One of the managers at Transdev did tweet a couple of days ago a hint/teaser over the E400EV for route 36 so i'd guess that's the the current favourite to be ordered. In the past though Stagecoach have always mostly gone for ADL or Scania, just seems strange now, they started buying Volvo all of a sudden. I'm curious of what Arriva will go for, within the electrics. Arriva outside of London appear to be favouring, where they have carried through with the ZEBRA bids, Wright Electroliners though they have been slower than everyone else in announcing things so that may not become standard preferences. As others have said Brian Soutar, and others, involved at a senior level at Stagecoach had shares in ADL which probably resulted in one or other company getting a good deal out of the standardisation. Both companies have changed hands and are part of seperate overseas owned groups so that link is broken (and the new senior directors at Stagecoach came from outside) and orders will be decided in a different way, possibly Stagecoach will become a little less standardised in their purchasing in the future.
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Post by rwilkes on Jun 5, 2023 11:09:04 GMT 1
The electric bus is a goverenment initiative being pushed onto bus companies It would cut polltion more if the government help went into bus lanes and lower fare using existing buses. This is because if only one motorist switches to bus it halves the pollution and a massive switch would leave to a huge reduction, along with reduced congestion. Buses and trains are particular victims of 'politicians and the treasury know best' mentality, when really most of them haven't a clue and do not want to learn!
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Post by SCH117X on Jun 5, 2023 11:47:41 GMT 1
An ADL Enviro 400EV has a claimed range fully charged of 160 miles so any diversions provided a bus is well charged up will not be a problem - having to operate via Pool is not uncommon, equally Harrogate-Ripon journeys at times have to run via Boroughbridge and with flooding Leeds-Harrogate services have been known to operate via the A64 and A1(M).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2023 13:04:27 GMT 1
The electric bus is a goverenment initiative being pushed onto bus companies It would cut polltion more if the government help went into bus lanes and lower fare using existing buses. This is because if only one motorist switches to bus it halves the pollution and a massive switch would leave to a huge reduction, along with reduced congestion. Buses and trains are particular victims of 'politicians and the treasury know best' mentality, when really most of them haven't a clue and do not want to learn! But they are doing that stuff as well out of the BSIP funding,the ZEBRA funding is a separate pot. When you look at examples like in Newcastle where one of the most polluted streets in the city centre is buses only then you can see why more electric buses are needed. An ADL Enviro 400EV has a claimed range fully charged of 160 miles so any diversions provided a bus is well charged up will not be a problem - having to operate via Pool is not uncommon, equally Harrogate-Ripon journeys at times have to run via Boroughbridge and with flooding Leeds-Harrogate services have been known to operate via the A64 and A1(M). 160 Miles is the quoted range for the BYD/E400EVCity (although it's been said on other forums the real range is more around 130-150),the new Enviro 400EV is quoted at having a range of 260 Miles (so the real range would probably end up somewhere around 200-250). Lucy does have a point over splitting the route with pedestrian access over the bridge (assuming there is turning space at each end) as that is similar to what's happened in Oxford due to the closure of one of the main roads for railway improvements.
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rs
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Post by rs on Jun 5, 2023 17:38:32 GMT 1
What sort of mileage does a conventional diesel bus on the 36 do on an average duty? Would an electric vehicle manage to do the same without needing to come out of service for a recharge?
Whilst I'm not a fan of electric (for any vehicle, whether it be bus, car or van) as a replacement for the internal combustion engine it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out long term.
The current electric Volvos at Harrogate still seem to be doing alright more than four years in, though in the grand scheme of things they've got a pretty easy life pootling around Harrogate with quick charges at the bus station. Intensive long distance routes like the 36 will be the real test.
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Jun 5, 2023 18:00:45 GMT 1
There are 70 journeys on weekdays from Harrogate to Leeds alone, and those will mostly be all returns, plus the journeys to Ripon. They bought 14 of the current fleet in 2016.
It is about 16 miles from Harrogate to Leeds using the route they take. Someone has mentioned a real world range of 130 to 150 miles for an electric bus. Will that be achievable sitting in traffic with lights, heating, WiFi, USB on? Harewood Bank and Almsford Bank are pretty steep, and it's basically all uphill from Leeds to Moortown corner. Will that range be achievable when the buses are 7 years old?
4 return journeys might be the maximum range. Clearly the current buses do more than 4 return journeys each per day.
The manufacturers quote about 3 hours to recharge for the largest battery versions at a 150KW charge rate. Is there enough capacity in the grid to install many of them at Starbeck?
It seems unlikely that the whole 36 fleet will be BEV, probably only a few as a token gesture. The majority will have to remain diesel/hybrid.
And as to the Harewood Bridge closure plan, yes it is possible to turn round at each end.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2023 20:30:15 GMT 1
There are 70 journeys on weekdays from Harrogate to Leeds alone, and those will mostly be all returns, plus the journeys to Ripon. They bought 14 of the current fleet in 2016. It is about 16 miles from Harrogate to Leeds using the route they take. Someone has mentioned a real world range of 130 to 150 miles for an electric bus. Will that be achievable sitting in traffic with lights, heating, WiFi, USB on? Harewood Bank and Almsford Bank are pretty steep, and it's basically all uphill from Leeds to Moortown corner. Will that range be achievable when the buses are 7 years old? 4 return journeys might be the maximum range. Clearly the current buses do more than 4 return journeys each per day. The manufacturers quote about 3 hours to recharge for the largest battery versions at a 150KW charge rate. Is there enough capacity in the grid to install many of them at Starbeck? It seems unlikely that the whole 36 fleet will be BEV, probably only a few as a token gesture. The majority will have to remain diesel/hybrid. And as to the Harewood Bridge closure plan, yes it is possible to turn round at each end. The 130 - 150 Miles quote is for the BYD/ADL E400EV-City what has the lowest range on the market - most other examples are 200+ Miles. Looking at a few different vehicles tracking on bus times.org i'd say the average they cover is around 300-320 miles per day (some more, some less) so buying a model that can do around 250 Miles plus opportunity charging throughout the day & it seems plausible. Also it is the full 36 fleet that will be electric as the funding announcement already confirmed it
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jun 6, 2023 8:14:08 GMT 1
Electric buses are becoming more and more established so Transdev aren't jumping into the unknown, the only difference here is the interurban nature of the 36, but there is plenty of experience for Transdev to tap. The company I work for has 3 electric bus routes, one has very long bus workings for electric buses (250 miles) and the buses (admittedly single-deckers) have easily managed that (though it is tighter in the winter when the heating is on and the batteries are less efficient). One of the things we have found useful is that because electric buses are more reliable (less servicing required and less to go wrong generally) we can use otherwise spare buses to swap on/off routes which reduces the mileage of each bus, though the prime reasoning was actually to aid reliability by allowing the service to reset back onto time through the day. Transdev probably have a number of peak workings that they can utilise to drop on/off the route during the day to improve the delivery and deal with any range anxiety. This project will need planning and management but there is nothing insurmountable in doing this, they may be more conservative in the roll-out (we were, with a contingency to reduce the bus mileage until we were certain of the real world range) than where they end up at the end with final experience.
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Jun 6, 2023 10:03:47 GMT 1
"The 130 - 150 Miles quote is for the BYD/ADL E400EV-City what has the lowest range on the market"
But isn't this the bus that the hints say that they have chosen? And don't forget, the greater the range, the longer the bus takes to re-charge. Look at the difference in charging time that Wright quote for the smaller and larger battery versions.
And we all know that quoted range is utterly unrealistic. It is calculated in perfect conditions with perfect battery temperatures etc. which does not reflect the real world. Tootling round pancake flat London where achieving 20 mph is a rarity is very different from full speed running along the A61, with it's many uphill sections and 2 steep banks, in winter.
In London, the buses are always in basic specification. By the time the Transdev pimping department have added WiFi, USB, fairy lights, shelves for library books, tables, and coach seats with tray tables that must be 4 times as heavy as the basic, thin seats that they use in London, you have a bus that weighs far more than the basic spec. bus that the testing was used by the manufacturer to produce the range figures with.
And fully electric is a pipe dream. I've quoted the journeys per day and the mileage. It isn't possible. And what happens when they close Harewood Bridge for 4 weeks, as they are about to, and suddenly the 32 mile round trip to Leeds become 62 miles because of the diversion via Huby, Pool, Arthington?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2023 11:11:33 GMT 1
"The 130 - 150 Miles quote is for the BYD/ADL E400EV-City what has the lowest range on the market" But isn't this the bus that the hints say that they have chosen? And don't forget, the greater the range, the longer the bus takes to re-charge. Look at the difference in charging time that Wright quote for the smaller and larger battery versions. And we all know that quoted range is utterly unrealistic. It is calculated in perfect conditions with perfect battery temperatures etc. which does not reflect the real world. Tootling round pancake flat London where achieving 20 mph is a rarity is very different from full speed running along the A61, with it's many uphill sections and 2 steep banks, in winter. In London, the buses are always in basic specification. By the time the Transdev pimping department have added WiFi, USB, fairy lights, shelves for library books, tables, and coach seats with tray tables that must be 4 times as heavy as the basic, thin seats that they use in London, you have a bus that weighs far more than the basic spec. bus that the testing was used by the manufacturer to produce the range figures with. And fully electric is a pipe dream. I've quoted the journeys per day and the mileage. It isn't possible. And what happens when they close Harewood Bridge for 4 weeks, as they are about to, and suddenly the 32 mile round trip to Leeds become 62 miles because of the diversion via Huby, Pool, Arthington? The hint is for the new fully ADL Enviro 400EV not the BYD/City model,the new E400EV has a quoted 260 mile range so likely in real world will do somewhere around 200-250,add in opportunity charging & I think you could get into the 300-350mile range. Steep hills are not a problem for electric vehicles and hardly affect the range,as yes they use more power to get up them but use less coming back down. The Harewood closure is during July and August isn't it? With them not fully decided on the interiors yet I would take that to mean the Electric fleet won't be here that early. If another closure does happen again after they've arrived i'm sure they'll look at how to operate it,it could be as easy as setting up temporary charging in Leeds Bus Stn
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Jun 6, 2023 13:10:35 GMT 1
"it could be as easy as setting up temporary charging in Leeds Bus Stn"
Thanks for the laugh!
Wrightbus quote 2.5 or 3 hours to charge their Electroliner, depending on the battery version at 150KW. You're just going to magic a 150KW charger into Leeds bus station and sit the bus there for 2.5 to 3 hours?
"Easy" as you say.
The buses are grant buses or subsidised aren't they? Take the free or subsidised buses. They don't work on the route, as you suspected. Do you have to hand back these by then second-hand buses, or are you allowed to move them to other routes where they might be suitable?
Or are they a useful tool to attract the buyer that rumour allegedly says there is for some depots? Another rumour allegedly says the the company is for sale. The new buyer then allocates them as appropriate?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2023 13:51:36 GMT 1
"it could be as easy as setting up temporary charging in Leeds Bus Stn" Thanks for the laugh! Wrightbus quote 2.5 or 3 hours to charge their Electroliner, depending on the battery version at 150KW. You're just going to magic a 150KW charger into Leeds bus station and sit the bus there for 2.5 to 3 hours? "Easy" as you say. The buses are grant buses or subsidised aren't they? Take the free or subsidised buses. They don't work on the route, as you suspected. Do you have to hand back these by then second-hand buses, or are you allowed to move them to other routes where they might be suitable? Or are they a useful tool to attract the buyer that rumour allegedly says there is for some depots? Another rumour allegedly says the the company is for sale. The new buyer then allocates them as appropriate? Do you know how pantograph opportunity charging works? It's not about having them sit for 2-3 hours - Don't forget the Wright times you quote are using 150kW via normal leads whilst pantograph charging can offer upto 600Kw. The Current ones at Harrogate Bus Station are 450kw so using that & the figures you quoted that cuts charge time (from 0-100%) from 3 Hours to 1 Hour, so a quick 10minute recharge will give you enough for an additional 33Miles (based off a full range of 200miles) Also the buses cannot be returned at a drop of a hat, there are rules that come with the funding. If it's anything like the previous funding the likes of First/Stagecoach had for Hybrids during the 2010-2015 period then the Electrics will have to remain in the area for at least 5-10 years before they can be moved.
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Post by stevieinselby on Jun 6, 2023 19:59:22 GMT 1
What sort of mileage does a conventional diesel bus on the 36 do on an average duty? Would an electric vehicle manage to do the same without needing to come out of service for a recharge? Looking at the tracking for yesterday, and without doing rigorous analysis, it looks like there are some buses that are doing 300–350 miles in a day if they in service continuously from early until late, but others will be doing less if they are not needed for the evening or may not be used as intensively intra-peak.
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Post by chas on Jun 6, 2023 20:43:57 GMT 1
"The 130 - 150 Miles quote is for the BYD/ADL E400EV-City what has the lowest range on the market" But isn't this the bus that the hints say that they have chosen? And don't forget, the greater the range, the longer the bus takes to re-charge. Look at the difference in charging time that Wright quote for the smaller and larger battery versions. And we all know that quoted range is utterly unrealistic. It is calculated in perfect conditions with perfect battery temperatures etc. which does not reflect the real world. Tootling round pancake flat London where achieving 20 mph is a rarity is very different from full speed running along the A61, with it's many uphill sections and 2 steep banks, in winter. In London, the buses are always in basic specification. By the time the Transdev pimping department have added WiFi, USB, fairy lights, shelves for library books, tables, and coach seats with tray tables that must be 4 times as heavy as the basic, thin seats that they use in London, you have a bus that weighs far more than the basic spec. bus that the testing was used by the manufacturer to produce the range figures with. And fully electric is a pipe dream. I've quoted the journeys per day and the mileage. It isn't possible. And what happens when they close Harewood Bridge for 4 weeks, as they are about to, and suddenly the 32 mile round trip to Leeds become 62 miles because of the diversion via Huby, Pool, Arthington? According to the Yorkshire Post, the diversion will add 5 miles to any journey. TheAA.com suggests an extra 6.5 miles. Hence 32 becomes 45 miles.
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Post by SCH117X on Jun 6, 2023 21:07:44 GMT 1
The A61 directly between the A658 and A659 is 2.98 miles, via Pool is 9.78 miles - 6.8 miles further. Northbound the direct route ascends Swindon Bank, often overlooked until it becomes snowbound with vehicles stuck fast.
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Post by stevieinselby on Jun 6, 2023 21:23:19 GMT 1
While the diversion might add extra mileage to each journey it might also make no difference to a vehicle's total daily mileage – because in adding that extra mileage, it will also be adding extra minuteage, and so buses are likely to need to be stepped back from their usual diagrams and so will run fewer journeys over the course of the day (with either more vehicles needed to maintain the frequency, or a reduction in frequency to every 15 minutes to allow the same number of vehicles to run to time).
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Post by SCH117X on Jun 6, 2023 22:53:53 GMT 1
The shortest weekday duty might be 4 Harrogate-Leeds returns @ 32.3 miles, one Harrogate-Ripon return @ 23.6 miles and in service runs from and to the depot 3.9 miles totalling 157.1 miles 0658 from Starbeck to Leeds, 0835 to Harrogate, 0950 to Leeds, 1050 to Ripon, 1227 to Leeds, 1410 to Harrogate, 1520 to Leeds, 1630 to Starbeck
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jun 7, 2023 8:13:56 GMT 1
"The 130 - 150 Miles quote is for the BYD/ADL E400EV-City what has the lowest range on the market" But isn't this the bus that the hints say that they have chosen? And don't forget, the greater the range, the longer the bus takes to re-charge. Look at the difference in charging time that Wright quote for the smaller and larger battery versions. And we all know that quoted range is utterly unrealistic. It is calculated in perfect conditions with perfect battery temperatures etc. which does not reflect the real world. Tootling round pancake flat London where achieving 20 mph is a rarity is very different from full speed running along the A61, with it's many uphill sections and 2 steep banks, in winter. In London, the buses are always in basic specification. By the time the Transdev pimping department have added WiFi, USB, fairy lights, shelves for library books, tables, and coach seats with tray tables that must be 4 times as heavy as the basic, thin seats that they use in London, you have a bus that weighs far more than the basic spec. bus that the testing was used by the manufacturer to produce the range figures with. And fully electric is a pipe dream. I've quoted the journeys per day and the mileage. It isn't possible. And what happens when they close Harewood Bridge for 4 weeks, as they are about to, and suddenly the 32 mile round trip to Leeds become 62 miles because of the diversion via Huby, Pool, Arthington? As someone who actually works for a company running electric buses, and on workings with very long daily mileages, I again point out there is no inherent reason why they will have any issues with this with anything resembling sensible planning. Unlike car manufacturers the bus suppliers are actually very careful about what they quote as daily range, they are very conservative on their claims and reluctant to make any definitive general statements as they are clear that ranges vary from cycle to cycle. In our experience our electrics, Yutongs in our case, were actually over performing initially though the range dropped slightly in winter to closer to what we were expecting due to the poorer battery performance in colder weather so this assumption that ranges will be significantly worse than quoted is less obvious. The ADL integral electric (which was the teaser picture not a BYD based version, they have different body styles) is one of the longest ranged models on the market so many of the bus workings will actually be able to be covered on a single charge. The quoted charge time from Wright will be a full charge from empty (& the charger power you are quoting isn't that powerful) and if you are top up charging during the day you are only adding a small proportion at a time so the amount of time needed is much less. There are plenty of ways of making this work perfectly well, and plenty of examples of how to do it and experience to be taped so there is no reason, other than your pathological dislike of Transdev, why you should be so down on this development. Transdev aren't even the first to run electric buses on interurban routes, Stagecoach routinely use electric BYD/E200EVs on the express bus from Guildford to Kingston (partially as they are one of the few vehicles at the depot London ULEZ compliant) without issue, they often appear on rural & interurban routes so there is no reason why this won't work with proper planning. Public diversions on road closures will generally divert traffic via similar standard roads, so when a major road closes the published diversion will always be quite long as they have to use quite long routes (to allow for non-locals in very large vehicles to avoid them getting lost or stuck on inappropriate routes) whereas buses and local traffic will use much shorter diversion via lower standard local roads as they know where they are going so the diversions will never be that long (if they were the route would have to be split as it could not be operated anything like reliably with that level of extra mileage even with diesel buses).
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Jun 7, 2023 18:35:58 GMT 1
Electric buses aren't going to solve one endless problem with this service. As someone who has used the 36 a lot over the past 2 years (at least 2 to 3 times a month, so far in the last 4 weeks I've used it 6 times) I can tell you reliability is bad, has always been bad and doesn't look to be getting any better. Sometimes I've waited up to 50 minutes for a bus during the evening peak, and I've often had to wait a good 20 minutes. Tonight saw two buses travelling together towards Leeds, followed by a cancelled journey meaning obviously the one after would also find itself running late. The 07.45 from Leeds used to be cancelled a hell of a lot towards the end of last year but finally things improved on that front. What is needed is a realistic timetable based on the number of drivers they realistically can give the route, and an abolition of the £2 fare on this route as I'm seeing far too many non regular leisure type travellers catching this to/from Harrogate, it'll get a lot worse in the Summer which isn't good if you work on the route with no alternative. I don't work in Harrogate by the way, I'm in that middle bit with no alternative options! What's also needed is splitting the route in Harrogate with the 36 between Harrogate and Ripon reduced to every hour so as to free up a bus for the Leeds to Harrogate bit.
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Post by SCH117X on Jun 7, 2023 19:03:02 GMT 1
That reads as if they should improve the bit you use and sod the bit I don't use.
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Jun 7, 2023 19:26:53 GMT 1
That reads as if they should improve the bit you use and sod the bit I don't use. Err no, that reads as improve the better used section by knocking off a bus from the lesser used section.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2023 19:28:57 GMT 1
Electric buses aren't going to solve one endless problem with this service. As someone who has used the 36 a lot over the past 2 years (at least 2 to 3 times a month, so far in the last 4 weeks I've used it 6 times) I can tell you reliability is bad, has always been bad and doesn't look to be getting any better. Sometimes I've waited up to 50 minutes for a bus during the evening peak, and I've often had to wait a good 20 minutes. Tonight saw two buses travelling together towards Leeds, followed by a cancelled journey meaning obviously the one after would also find itself running late. The 07.45 from Leeds used to be cancelled a hell of a lot towards the end of last year but finally things improved on that front. What is needed is a realistic timetable based on the number of drivers they realistically can give the route, and an abolition of the £2 fare on this route as I'm seeing far too many non regular leisure type travellers catching this to/from Harrogate, it'll get a lot worse in the Summer which isn't good if you work on the route with no alternative. I don't work in Harrogate by the way, I'm in that middle bit with no alternative options! What's also needed is splitting the route in Harrogate with the 36 between Harrogate and Ripon reduced to every hour so as to free up a bus for the Leeds to Harrogate bit. They should look at reducing the Leeds section to Every 15 Minutes where a fair amount of the route has other alternatives even if your bit doesn't rather than going Hourly to Ripon what has no alternatives across all the route. Also why are cheaper fares & the rise of leisure travel seen as a bad thing? Are you saying you'd rather pay around £6-£8 for a reduced service (every 20-30 Mins) what would be the likely reality without them 2 things - you'd certainly notice delays alot more if that happened. You mention the leisure passengers being non-regular, but have you thought if they are pleased with the buses when they use them it could convince them to become more regular users hence getting more cars off the road & reducing the delays that make 2 buses run together.
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