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Post by peteleeds on Jun 21, 2023 19:36:57 GMT 1
[/quote]Funny Arriva is not on there despite them announcing it on their website. METRO do your research![/quote]
I think i remember seeing that the arriva changes don't take effect until 23rd July
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Post by jonny182 on Jun 21, 2023 19:38:21 GMT 1
I recon there are quite a few more to be added to the list published so far so expect the final list to be much bigger. Alot of the Arriva changes are for a later weekend 23/24 July.
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Post by mattb7tl on Jun 21, 2023 19:49:29 GMT 1
Millions spent on bus priority throughout the years, people continue to say we don’t need public buses and that priority is the saving grace and yet… routes with priority continue to get cut! I have a great view of the 372, you’ll struggle to find a journey which runs empty, and that includes night journeys. What a massive middle finger to the WYCA, especially after such a hefty investment for improving services, those service improvements are going to have much less of a chance of succeeding, especially at night!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 20:17:55 GMT 1
Millions spent on bus priority throughout the years, people continue to say we don’t need public buses and that priority is the saving grace and yet… routes with priority continue to get cut! I have a great view of the 372, you’ll struggle to find a journey which runs empty, and that includes night journeys. What a massive middle finger to the WYCA, especially after such a hefty investment for improving services, those service improvements are going to have much less of a chance of succeeding, especially at night! Apart from the early 503 journeys what other routes are seeing journeys cut that the WYCA have 'invested' in? In fact I wonder if the cuts to the Lindley corridor are to make room for the improved Halifax via HRI service in a few months time. I Wouldn't be too surprised if at least the Dalton/Rawthorpe/Almondbury parts get put out to tender like most of the Huddersfield evening network. With such a large amount of early morning/evening trips being cut I'm wondering if there's more to it than just low passenger numbers such as due to driver shortages they are focusing more on daytime journeys when the majority of passengers will be travelling. It could also be First not being too happy over WYCA after last month they declared Franchising being the preferred option going ahead after First pushed hard for Quality Partnerships.
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Post by mattb7tl on Jun 21, 2023 20:27:02 GMT 1
Millions spent on bus priority throughout the years, people continue to say we don’t need public buses and that priority is the saving grace and yet… routes with priority continue to get cut! I have a great view of the 372, you’ll struggle to find a journey which runs empty, and that includes night journeys. What a massive middle finger to the WYCA, especially after such a hefty investment for improving services, those service improvements are going to have much less of a chance of succeeding, especially at night! Apart from the early 503 journeys what other routes are seeing journeys cut that the WYCA have 'invested' in? In fact I wonder if the cuts to the Lindley corridor are to make room for the improved Halifax via HRI service in a few months time. I Wouldn't be too surprised if at least the Dalton/Rawthorpe/Almondbury parts get put out to tender like most of the Huddersfield evening network. With such a large amount of early morning/evening trips being cut I'm wondering if there's more to it than just low passenger numbers such as due to driver shortages they are focusing more on daytime journeys when the majority of passengers will be travelling. It could also be First not being too happy over WYCA after last month they declared Franchising being the preferred option going ahead after First pushed hard for Quality Partnerships. 372: Bus lane start to finish on Wakefield Road (into Huddersfield) 324: Bus lane towards Meltham (Not executed the best, but more than acceptable) 370/371: Benefits from the same bus priority as the 372. However, the demise of the services in the Rawthrope/Dalton direction is almost definitely due to awful waiting conditions. 180s: The bus lanes on Manchester Road, wonderfully executed, ran into the ground by first as they interwork the routes unrealistically.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 20:37:45 GMT 1
Apart from the early 503 journeys what other routes are seeing journeys cut that the WYCA have 'invested' in? In fact I wonder if the cuts to the Lindley corridor are to make room for the improved Halifax via HRI service in a few months time. I Wouldn't be too surprised if at least the Dalton/Rawthorpe/Almondbury parts get put out to tender like most of the Huddersfield evening network. With such a large amount of early morning/evening trips being cut I'm wondering if there's more to it than just low passenger numbers such as due to driver shortages they are focusing more on daytime journeys when the majority of passengers will be travelling. It could also be First not being too happy over WYCA after last month they declared Franchising being the preferred option going ahead after First pushed hard for Quality Partnerships. 372: Bus lane start to finish on Wakefield Road (into Huddersfield) 324: Bus lane towards Meltham (Not executed the best, but more than acceptable) 370/371: Benefits from the same bus priority as the 372. However, the demise of the services in the Rawthrope/Dalton direction is almost definitely due to awful waiting conditions. 180s: The bus lanes on Manchester Road, wonderfully executed, ran into the ground by first by interworking the routes unrealistically. WYCA only became a thing in 2014 - The Lockwood Rd & Wakefield Rd Bus Lanes have been there since the 00s & the Manchester Road one was introduced in 2010 so it would of been under Kirklees Council/Metro PTE (although i question how much 'investment' painting some solid white lines is) so I'm not sure WYCA can use that as part of their argument
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Post by mattb7tl on Jun 21, 2023 20:45:02 GMT 1
372: Bus lane start to finish on Wakefield Road (into Huddersfield) 324: Bus lane towards Meltham (Not executed the best, but more than acceptable) 370/371: Benefits from the same bus priority as the 372. However, the demise of the services in the Rawthrope/Dalton direction is almost definitely due to awful waiting conditions. 180s: The bus lanes on Manchester Road, wonderfully executed, ran into the ground by first by interworking the routes unrealistically. WYCA only became a thing in 2014 - The Lockwood Rd & Wakefield Rd Bus Lanes have been there since the 00s & the Manchester Road one was introduced in 2010 so it would of been under Kirklees Council/Metro PTE (although i question how much 'investment' painting some solid white lines is) so I'm not sure WYCA can use that as part of their argument Either way money was spent and first hasn’t done much in return. I feel like there’s a different motive with these changes. Mayor was a key player in TPE losing their contract, and as you mentioned, franchising being picked as the main option. Arriva has calmed down with cuts, same with Transdev, why hasn’t First?
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Post by deerfold on Jun 21, 2023 20:51:07 GMT 1
Looks like First has already decided that people who use buses shouldn't go out in the evening in Bradford and is now deciding the same for Halifax, Huddersfield and Leeds.
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Post by WYBS on Jun 21, 2023 20:55:42 GMT 1
My heart goes out to the (typically) low paid workers who rely on these early morning and evening services to get them to their jobs.
Worstbus strikes again. They have never gone out of their way to make travelling on their services an enjoyable experience. I just feel for people who can't afford cars.
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Post by Username on Jun 21, 2023 20:59:52 GMT 1
Funny Arriva is not on there despite them announcing it on their website. METRO do your research![/quote] I think i remember seeing that the arriva changes don't take effect until 23rd July [/quote] Doesn't matter, in the past if the changes happen even a month earlier it still gets included in the batch.
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Post by mattb7tl on Jun 21, 2023 21:01:19 GMT 1
I’m glad my opinion seems to be shared on these changes. I feel like my comments on the company have been too harsh in the past. However, these sets of changes seem silly to another level. Arriva, for their many flaws, have routes with half the usage compared to some of the routes which have been sliced, and they manage to provide a better timetable!
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Post by Username on Jun 21, 2023 21:01:26 GMT 1
Looks like First has already decided that people who use buses shouldn't go out in the evening in Bradford and is now deciding the same for Halifax, Huddersfield and Leeds. I think for Halifax it's the lack of a bus station so evening services are usually carrying penny numbers. Even during the daytime buses seem to carry a lot less as soon as the temporary bus station got located down by Sainsbury's.
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Post by Username on Jun 21, 2023 21:05:04 GMT 1
I’m glad my opinion seems to be shared on these changes. I feel like my comments on the company have been too harsh in the past. However, these sets of changes seem silly to another level. Arriva, for their many flaws, have routes with half the usage compared to some of the routes which have been sliced, and they manage to provide a better timetable! The good thing about Arriva is when they cut services they usually use replacements. I think the 260 to replace the 228 was a great idea as now they do get extra passengers as they're not being lost to 202/3 and 229 plus it saves drivers from taking one short journey off the 261 and making it extend to Cleckheaton as a 260. As well as this, using 260/1 to replace 229 in Robertown to enable faster 229 journeys was another smart idea, well played Arriva.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 21:08:23 GMT 1
WYCA only became a thing in 2014 - The Lockwood Rd & Wakefield Rd Bus Lanes have been there since the 00s & the Manchester Road one was introduced in 2010 so it would of been under Kirklees Council/Metro PTE (although i question how much 'investment' painting some solid white lines is) so I'm not sure WYCA can use that as part of their argument Either way money was spent and first hasn’t done much in return. I feel like there’s a different motive with these changes. Mayor was a key player in TPE losing their contract, and as you mentioned, franchising being picked as the main option. Arriva has calmed down with cuts, same with Transdev, why hasn’t First? First did do alot at the time they was introduced (I Think the Lockwood Road/Wakefield Road ones came around the same time the Eclipse order arrived, but not 100% sure) plus when they was introduced it wasn't just First that saw the benefits as there was alot more operators in Huddersfield at the time. I Hadn't thought about the Mayors role in them losing TPE but you do have a point over that, plus First are set to loose alot more than other operators with Franchising being the option (the 284 new buses for Leeds a few years ago was First trying to keep franchising away). Either way it's now starting to look alot like it will get worse before it gets better so hopefully we don't get the same delays as Manchester (operators going to court trying to block it) & we can get it rolled out fairly soon. I'm wondering with these cuts happening at the start of the summer holidays if anti-social behaviour might be playing a part also, with the likes of Fagley/Illingworth/Mixenden/Almondbury/Dalton/Rawthorpe all being on the hit list.
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Post by joseph on Jun 21, 2023 22:13:03 GMT 1
The one journey I did think would be axed is the very late journey on service 1 to Beeston, but for some reason it's survived, is this commercial? Thought with the 75 running 20 minutes before it that it wouldn't.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jun 21, 2023 22:23:58 GMT 1
Either way money was spent and first hasn’t done much in return. I feel like there’s a different motive with these changes. Mayor was a key player in TPE losing their contract, and as you mentioned, franchising being picked as the main option. Arriva has calmed down with cuts, same with Transdev, why hasn’t First? First did do alot at the time they was introduced (I Think the Lockwood Road/Wakefield Road ones came around the same time the Eclipse order arrived, but not 100% sure) plus when they was introduced it wasn't just First that saw the benefits as there was alot more operators in Huddersfield at the time. I Hadn't thought about the Mayors role in them losing TPE but you do have a point over that, plus First are set to loose alot more than other operators with Franchising being the option (the 284 new buses for Leeds a few years ago was First trying to keep franchising away). Either way it's now starting to look alot like it will get worse before it gets better so hopefully we don't get the same delays as Manchester (operators going to court trying to block it) & we can get it rolled out fairly soon. I'm wondering with these cuts happening at the start of the summer holidays if anti-social behaviour might be playing a part also, with the likes of Fagley/Illingworth/Mixenden/Almondbury/Dalton/Rawthorpe all being on the hit list. Realistically I think we need to wait to see what happens in Manchester first All they’ve done so far is take the services as they exist now and allocate them to different operators Nothing as yet about any previously withdrawn routes or journeys coming back, but allegedly it might come eventually So the idea of franchising the routes and immediately reinstating a service level from 10 years ago isnt going to happen PS: I love the idea that everyone is suddenly praising Arriva just because there are no cuts in this batch. People must have short memories
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 22:41:18 GMT 1
First did do alot at the time they was introduced (I Think the Lockwood Road/Wakefield Road ones came around the same time the Eclipse order arrived, but not 100% sure) plus when they was introduced it wasn't just First that saw the benefits as there was alot more operators in Huddersfield at the time. I Hadn't thought about the Mayors role in them losing TPE but you do have a point over that, plus First are set to loose alot more than other operators with Franchising being the option (the 284 new buses for Leeds a few years ago was First trying to keep franchising away). Either way it's now starting to look alot like it will get worse before it gets better so hopefully we don't get the same delays as Manchester (operators going to court trying to block it) & we can get it rolled out fairly soon. I'm wondering with these cuts happening at the start of the summer holidays if anti-social behaviour might be playing a part also, with the likes of Fagley/Illingworth/Mixenden/Almondbury/Dalton/Rawthorpe all being on the hit list. Realistically I think we need to wait to see what happens in Manchester first All they’ve done so far is take the services as they exist now and allocate them to different operators Nothing as yet about any previously withdrawn routes or journeys coming back, but allegedly it might come eventually So the idea of franchising the routes and immediately reinstating a service level from 10 years ago isnt going to happen PS: I love the idea that everyone is suddenly praising Arriva just because there are no cuts in this batch. People must have short memories Unless it's been mentioned somewhere that the plans have changed, it's been franchised out to mostly 2019 levels of service (Despite it only being 4 Years ago that's a fair amount of lost mileage returning). Will things magically improve overnight? no but I've got alot more faith in a nationalised or franchised system than the current privatised mess (the fact no other major country has this model - even America should speak volumes) I Agree with you Arriva are not blameless & fail on a number of things. Whilst there has been positives to the likes of 229/260/1 as someone mentioned above, there is still poor connections on a evening in Heckmondwike plus the cuts across Wakefield/Castleford from last year & earlier this year. The fact is there is just something about these cuts that seem off - normally if it's low passenger usage don't they declare that as the reason?
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Post by Username on Jun 21, 2023 22:55:06 GMT 1
First did do alot at the time they was introduced (I Think the Lockwood Road/Wakefield Road ones came around the same time the Eclipse order arrived, but not 100% sure) plus when they was introduced it wasn't just First that saw the benefits as there was alot more operators in Huddersfield at the time. I Hadn't thought about the Mayors role in them losing TPE but you do have a point over that, plus First are set to loose alot more than other operators with Franchising being the option (the 284 new buses for Leeds a few years ago was First trying to keep franchising away). Either way it's now starting to look alot like it will get worse before it gets better so hopefully we don't get the same delays as Manchester (operators going to court trying to block it) & we can get it rolled out fairly soon. I'm wondering with these cuts happening at the start of the summer holidays if anti-social behaviour might be playing a part also, with the likes of Fagley/Illingworth/Mixenden/Almondbury/Dalton/Rawthorpe all being on the hit list. Realistically I think we need to wait to see what happens in Manchester first All they’ve done so far is take the services as they exist now and allocate them to different operators Nothing as yet about any previously withdrawn routes or journeys coming back, but allegedly it might come eventually So the idea of franchising the routes and immediately reinstating a service level from 10 years ago isnt going to happen PS: I love the idea that everyone is suddenly praising Arriva just because there are no cuts in this batch. People must have short memories Never talked smack about Arriva for routes, I have for their poor maintenance in vehicles.
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Post by ianigsy on Jun 21, 2023 22:56:58 GMT 1
It wouldn’t surprise me if First are trimming off journeys at the beginning and end of the day to keep them off any franchise specification so that they can reinstate them and claim it as an improvement.
The £2 Mayor’s Fares have probably changed some people’s buying patterns- I work four days a week in Leeds city centre so will buy a Flexi 5 most weeks and only buy a traditional weekly ticket if I know I’m going to be using the bus at the weekend or working in Leeds 5 days straight. This means that in an average month I might only buy four Flexi 5s and a couple of singles to cover any odd additional days, rather than a conventional monthly ticket.
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Post by rwilkes on Jun 22, 2023 9:07:30 GMT 1
There cannot be any improvements with franchising as there will be the same amount public money but admin costs will be much higher. The only thing that can work is more passengers and for this to happen we need very much better bus priority and higher city centre parking charges. Ohterwis wht only possible future is gradual decline
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2023 9:21:25 GMT 1
First did do alot at the time they was introduced (I Think the Lockwood Road/Wakefield Road ones came around the same time the Eclipse order arrived, but not 100% sure) plus when they was introduced it wasn't just First that saw the benefits as there was alot more operators in Huddersfield at the time. I Hadn't thought about the Mayors role in them losing TPE but you do have a point over that, plus First are set to loose alot more than other operators with Franchising being the option (the 284 new buses for Leeds a few years ago was First trying to keep franchising away). Either way it's now starting to look alot like it will get worse before it gets better so hopefully we don't get the same delays as Manchester (operators going to court trying to block it) & we can get it rolled out fairly soon. I'm wondering with these cuts happening at the start of the summer holidays if anti-social behaviour might be playing a part also, with the likes of Fagley/Illingworth/Mixenden/Almondbury/Dalton/Rawthorpe all being on the hit list. Realistically I think we need to wait to see what happens in Manchester first All they’ve done so far is take the services as they exist now and allocate them to different operators Nothing as yet about any previously withdrawn routes or journeys coming back, but allegedly it might come eventually So the idea of franchising the routes and immediately reinstating a service level from 10 years ago isnt going to happen PS: I love the idea that everyone is suddenly praising Arriva just because there are no cuts in this batch. People must have short memories Yes Arriva have done a lot of cuts in the last year, but you must gave credit and praise where its due, and Arriva deserve all the praise and credit with what they've done with the Garforth and Kippax changes
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Post by deerfold on Jun 22, 2023 9:39:39 GMT 1
There cannot be any improvements with franchising as there will be the same amount public money but admin costs will be much higher. Except that many routes run at a profit. Some of that profit will be retained by the authority to help pay for the routes that don't. It's the reverse of what's been happening since 1986, private operators hoover up the routes that make money, but it was still up to local government to pay for routes and trips that didn't having also lost that income.
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Post by mattb7tl on Jun 22, 2023 10:19:37 GMT 1
There cannot be any improvements with franchising as there will be the same amount public money but admin costs will be much higher. The only thing that can work is more passengers and for this to happen we need very much better bus priority and higher city centre parking charges. Ohterwis wht only possible future is gradual decline Then why are the small amount of existing public companies so wildly successful? Have you ever tried Reading & NCT? Fancier than almost every other private company, maintainence is top notch, modern fleet, and they certainly brand their bus routes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2023 13:17:57 GMT 1
There cannot be any improvements with franchising as there will be the same amount public money but admin costs will be much higher. The only thing that can work is more passengers and for this to happen we need very much better bus priority and higher city centre parking charges. Ohterwis wht only possible future is gradual decline There are many ways a franchised system can generate enough income to fund improvements, alongside the fact less profit will be going to private operators to run the routes (or even better nationalise it instead & non of the profits will go to private operators),some of the possibilities are: Workplace Car Park Levys - Something Nottingham pioneered & was used to help pay for both the tram expansion & the gas fleet, any workplace in the city centre (or if it was introduced here, major town centres as well) with over 10 Employees & spaces have to pay £380 per year per car parking space. Whitehall Road,Leeds alone would bring in a decent amount if this was introduced. Tourist Tax - Something very popular across Europe & is happening in Manchester soon as well, put an extra £1-£2 on the price of a hotel &/or parking in places with high tourist demand Bus Lane Cameras - extend the hours of operation & put cameras on every bus lane in the county as a way to generate income alongside the other positive being it would result in a clearer road for buses to use. Alongside this have a better crackdown of cars who park in bus lanes or bus stops with the same results. Cross Subsidy from the railway - As Franchising allows an integrated public transport system, in areas where the Railway generates a profit that could also be used towards helping buses (plus reducing duplication between bus & trains would reduce the bus systems overheads) Council Tax - Now i know this is something alot of people like to use as a stick to beat Burnham for in Manchester, but £40 per year on your council tax seems a fair deal to improve it (plus possibly after a certain amount of time, allow fares to drop to a level your actually saving money) Of Course there is also the obvious option as well from central government - cut spending money on new roads that won't help public transport & direct that to improving bus networks & also stop the funding lotteries (BSIP) & just give each area a decent amount of funding per year
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jun 23, 2023 8:08:27 GMT 1
There cannot be any improvements with franchising as there will be the same amount public money but admin costs will be much higher. The only thing that can work is more passengers and for this to happen we need very much better bus priority and higher city centre parking charges. Ohterwis wht only possible future is gradual decline Then why are the small amount of existing public companies so wildly successful? Have you ever tried Reading & NCT? Fancier than almost every other private company, maintainence is top notch, modern fleet, and they certainly brand their bus routes. Yes, I have regularly used both and the reason why they are so successful is not related to ownership but how they are run - aided by the fact that both local authorities are very pro-bus generally with lots of investment in infrastructure & car restrictions (more so Nottingham than Reading for restrictions). Both are actually running the ultimate commercial business, concentrating almost entirely on core commercial high frequency work with little marginal work retained. NCT don't appear to have any tenders (those are run by community transport company CT4N or other independents) whilst Reading have very little to non within their city though their subsidiaries serving wider Berkshire are more contract based. You may be able to argue that because they are running at lower margins they can invest slightly more in vehicles & marketing but they can only do that because they are making a decent profit first. The small amount of existing municipals are largely successful (it isn't universal and two - Newport & Ipswich - were an absolute mess until a change in MD relatively recently, Ipswich are still not that impressive) because they are the ones that survived, the bad ones have been sold or gone bust as they couldn't or wouldn't make the decisions needed to survive (being smaller operators they have less financial security) where PLCs can ride out rough times through cross support from companies who aren't struggling. Most bus companies aren't wildly profitable and all are in effect cross-subsidising stuff all the time (even on the group level, I think First in 2017 had half their ops losing money who were being supported by the half who weren't in practice) so there isn't as much slack as people like to think. You also have to remember that franchising still involves private operators so profit will still need to be made it may be slightly less but that is because the local authority is taking most of the risk off the hands of the private operators so they need less headroom on income in case of unanticipated factors. Franchising is inherently more expensive than other structures, the local authority has to effectively duplicate a lot of the back office staffing so you have two people doing what one had done before (half my job is scheduling the drivers, which would remain with the operator, and half is planning routes & networks, which would be taken on by the LA) and local authorities are inherently less efficient than many private operators. If there is lots of extra cash being invested in the network, then the local authority may want (& could justify) more control how that is spent and deployed through which franchising may be justified but if there is no extra money coming in then all that will happen is more money is being taken out on admin costs so there is less to spend on the network.
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