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Post by deerfold on Oct 11, 2022 9:47:07 GMT 1
The issue with limited stop conditions not being observed could simply be that classic issue that the British suffer from called 'lack of communication' as in the conditions have not been communicated to drivers by Transdev trainers, not communicated to Transdev trainers by management, or to Transdev management by First/WYCA or whoever was responsible for passing the info on. Basically it's yet another unnecessary mistake costing people time and in many cases money, e.g. lost wages! If it's not been communicated to passengers either them perhaps it doesn't exist.
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Oct 11, 2022 11:19:51 GMT 1
It existed under First. How many times do I have to say that? I use the route regularly and have done for many years. I saw it in action. I saw the words LIMITED STOP on the destination board. I saw people with their hands out, and the bus driving past. I saw people refused boarding. I saw the bus pull up before the stop, to allow people to alight, but to prevent people boarding.
Did you ever use the service? Thought not.
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Oct 11, 2022 11:27:12 GMT 1
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Post by asw22 on Oct 11, 2022 12:28:34 GMT 1
I used this route daily between 2014 and 2018, then occasionally in 2019 and early 2020. The limited stop conditions existed then (pick up only from Leeds to Oakwood Clock, set down only Oakwood Clock to Leeds). Indeed the current online PDF map shows orange stops for getting on and blue for getting off in Leeds city centre (although it doesn't show what happens on Roundhay Road so either it has changed under Transdev or it's been lost in communication). Though not sure why passengers with a First Leeds pass would try to board when they have the more frequent 12/13/13A (8 an hour combined) - maybe £2 fare or novelty of the new vehicles?
Some notes on the new operator: 1. Transdev (Blazefield) is the parent company. 2. Coastliner is the brand name used for services registered under York and Malton depots. 3. Harrogate Bus Company is the brand name used for services registered under Harrogate (Starbeck depot). 4. Each company (/depot) has a set number of allocated operating discs, so if York (Coastliner) has more spare discs than Harrogate, then it will be easier to register the service under York than applying to increase Harrogate's allocation. 5. Staff availability, pay and conditions, vehicle availability and depot space will be different. For example, York depot is losing its Cityzap in November - originally that was a 4 vehicle (now 2 vehicle) operation. 6. Airport services Flyer A1, A2 and A3 also operate under the Coastliner licence and pretty much as far away from both the west and east coasts as you can get.
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Username
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Post by Username on Oct 11, 2022 12:44:35 GMT 1
I used this route daily between 2014 and 2018, then occasionally in 2019 and early 2020. The limited stop conditions existed then (pick up only from Leeds to Oakwood Clock, set down only Oakwood Clock to Leeds). Indeed the current online PDF map shows orange stops for getting on and blue for getting off in Leeds city centre (although it doesn't show what happens on Roundhay Road so either it has changed under Transdev or it's been lost in communication). Though not sure why passengers with a First Leeds pass would try to board when they have the more frequent 12/13/13A (8 an hour combined) - maybe £2 fare or novelty of the new vehicles? Some notes on the new operator: 1. Transdev (Blazefield) is the parent company. 2. Coastliner is the brand name used for services registered under York and Malton depots. 3. Harrogate Bus Company is the brand name used for services registered under Harrogate (Starbeck depot). 4. Each company (/depot) has a set number of allocated operating discs, so if York (Coastliner) has more spare discs than Harrogate, then it will be easier to register the service under York than applying to increase Harrogate's allocation. 5. Staff availability, pay and conditions, vehicle availability and depot space will be different. For example, York depot is losing its Cityzap in November - originally that was a 4 vehicle (now 2 vehicle) operation. 6. Airport services Flyer A1, A2 and A3 also operate under the Coastliner licence and pretty much as far away from both the west and east coasts as you can get. Don't understand why Flyer didn't go for the Keighley & District registration. Possibly could have also allowed the Wharfedale Links and Otley Dash to run out of that depot for a lot less dead run.
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Oct 11, 2022 13:31:59 GMT 1
They are changing the X98/9 registration from Coastliner to Harrogate from 21/11/22. That will make it sound less stupid, but no more reliable.
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Post by moorside on Oct 11, 2022 15:31:36 GMT 1
The restriction did not disappear years ago. It was still in place with First until the transfer to Transdev, or should I say Coastliner, which is what the timetable at the stops says. Coastliner? It's 50 miles as the crow flies from Wetherby to the coast and 60 miles from Leeds! The only water that it crosses is the River Wharfe between Collingham and Linton! If Transdev have removed the limited stop service, then perhaps that is one of the reasons why the service is so late, as the timetable is the same as First's. It also used to say "Limited Stop" on the destination display. Hence it being an X. Only limited stop buses had an X see also the X6. andyk4050 and WYBS's comments are correct. The reasoning was that there were plenty of other buses between Leeds and Oakwood Clock. First ran them all, so didn't lose any revenue. No doubt Transdev want those passengers too, to take revenue from First at the expense of timekeeping. The service is now appalling and cannot be relied upon. It wasn't great under First, but it is far worse now. For bus enthusiasts, it might be all about the type of bus, (although they were using an old Harrogate branded banger last Saturday on the route) and the marketing hype, but when you have to use it, it is all about the timekeeping. Arranging to meet people at a certain time, or missing the booked train to London becomes tiresome when the service is persistently and seriously late. If it was a train, then they would make nothing because of the "Delay Repay" scheme. I used it from Roseville Road towards Wetherby last Saturday. I wanted to catch the 14:11 X99. At 14:07, I could still see the X99 at the roundabout at the bottom of Roseville Road on it's way into Leeds. At 14:12, an X98 that was 31 minutes late arrived. I fully agree with the remarks about timekeeping and reliability. I seem to see tweets from operating companies regularly about how congestion is causing delays of "up to 40 minutes" to some services. 45 minutes standing at a bus stop (because we are told we should be there at least 5 minutes early) is quite a chunk out of one's day, and quite possibly a cold and wet chunk at that. There's also the problem of cancellations; Team Pennine do at least list the cancellations for the day on their website, but these often involve cancelled journeys on routes with only an hourly service.
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Post by deerfold on Oct 11, 2022 15:52:02 GMT 1
It existed under First. How many times do I have to say that? I use the route regularly and have done for many years. I saw it in action. I saw the words LIMITED STOP on the destination board. I saw people with their hands out, and the bus driving past. I saw people refused boarding. I saw the bus pull up before the stop, to allow people to alight, but to prevent people boarding. Did you ever use the service? Thought not. I believe you. I haven't said I don't. I have used the service. There were limited stop conditions when I did. And they were well advertised. But just because that's how First ran it, doesn't mean it's how Transdev are running it.
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Oct 11, 2022 16:11:26 GMT 1
I understand why timetables show Flyer and X98/99 as 'Coastliner' from a data point of view, but it doesn't make much sense when WYCA are trying to make bus travel easier to understand and more accessible for all.
Why it can't show 'Flyer' and then 'operated by Transdev' in small text underneath, I don't know.
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Oct 11, 2022 18:15:23 GMT 1
moorside - Harrogate Bus also show the cancellations for the day, and you think fine, the bus I want to catch is not listed. Then you look at Metro mynextbus, and you see that there are several other cancellations on the 7, including the one you wanted. The "cancellations for the day" list cannot be trusted.
Transdev can blame congestion all they like, but the reality is a combination of:
(a) First solved the Roseville Road roundabout problem a few years ago, as I have posted previously, so I will not repeat how they did that. It was very simple - drivers' common sense and re-routing at peak times.
(b) First treated it as a Limited Stop service, which saved time. Transdev are apparently not doing that, so are losing time, but are still trying to run to First's timetable, which is not possible.
(c) Transdev's drivers do not know the route, they spend too long at stops and they drive too slowly.
(d) Transdev's fancy buses are much slower to accelerate than First's Streetdecks, probably because of all the tables, heavy seats, weighty glass roof panels, bigger windows, bulky induction chargers, bulky seat backs, reading lights (most of which do not work any more), stop buttons in every seat back and the fairy lights below the windows.
Until they do exactly what First did; find some more power from the engine; and speed the drivers up, then they will be late every time.
I do not know why Alex Hornby doesn't read this thread. The answers are all here for free. He's probably too busy telling everyone how amazing everything is, when it isn't.
It would be better if Connexions ran the service. Imagine saying that a few years ago, but that is the reality of how far Transdev have fallen, and how poor they now are.
The X98/99 is just going to be another service to add to the growing failure list. CityZap x2. Vamooz. Harrogate to Skipton. Harrogate to Ilkley.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Oct 11, 2022 18:46:53 GMT 1
There is clearly an underlying bias there that is plain to see. It explains the over reaction to a service that they’ve been running a week.
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Post by SCH117X on Oct 11, 2022 20:19:40 GMT 1
Not that Connexions run a full service, they just fail to commnicate any cancellations until responding to any Facebook comment a day or two later. Bustimes data shows no problems generally time keeping along most of the route so it can hardly be an issue of lack of accelleration. Maybe Firsts drivers were more aggresive, certainly I can think of a number of times whern driving that a First bus has cut me up whereas Transdevs drivers are typically curteous. The 36 is no longer limited stop so why should these be? Transdev after all will be wanting the maximum reveneue they can obtain. The current timetable consequently may be unrealistic - it certainly looks like something Connexions would come up and fail to comply with (the joke timings of the X1 etc particularly in the peak peiods).
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Post by deerfold on Oct 11, 2022 21:19:52 GMT 1
I do not know why Alex Hornby doesn't read this thread. The answers are all here for free. He's probably too busy telling everyone how amazing everything is, when it isn't. Alex used to be on this forum in 2016 but got rather a lot of abuse. Unsurprisingly, he left. The X98/99 is just going to be another service to add to the growing failure list. CityZap x2. Vamooz. Harrogate to Skipton. Harrogate to Ilkley. What's wrong with the Harrogate to Skipton route? Harrogate to Ilkley (to Keighley) wasn't helped by Connexions retiming 5 minutes in front of them - it was a useful bus for me and I think it would have been helped by an additional late run, but at least they tried something new (as with CityZap). Of course, Connexions aren't running Harrogate to Ilkley, either, now.
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Post by SCH117X on Oct 11, 2022 22:25:41 GMT 1
Harrogate to Skipton was NYCC supported, when the funding ceased Transdev found even a service offering a single return trip using a larger vehicle (B10BLE v Dart) in each direction was not commercially viable. It has returned as a Saturday service through Dalesbus.
Harrogate to Ikley was also a strange one of Transdev not marketing it enough as a K Day was cheaper than Connexions fares for most journeys. Of couse that gave yet another stupid destination display by Connexions "The original and the best" (maybe half right).
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Post by deerfold on Oct 11, 2022 23:12:55 GMT 1
Harrogate to Skipton was NYCC supported, when the funding ceased Transdev found even a single service using a larger vehicle (B10BLE v Dart) in each direction was not commercially viable. It has returned as a Saturday service through Dalesbus. Harrogate to Ikley was also a strange one of Transdev not marketing it enough as a K Day was cheaper than Connexions fares for most journeys. Of couse that gave yet another stupid destination display by Connexions "The original and the best" (maybe half right). I assumed Lucy was about the current serve Harrogate to Skipton service. Both seem to have been run reasonably, but as you say, they're not commercial services. The Harrogate to Ilkley service could have done with better advertising (especially the fares) - and it ran at odd times - starting before 0600 from Keighley, but with a last bus around 1630, making it useful to few workers.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Oct 12, 2022 8:21:10 GMT 1
moorside - Harrogate Bus also show the cancellations for the day, and you think fine, the bus I want to catch is not listed. Then you look at Metro mynextbus, and you see that there are several other cancellations on the 7, including the one you wanted. The "cancellations for the day" list cannot be trusted. Transdev can blame congestion all they like, but the reality is a combination of: (a) First solved the Roseville Road roundabout problem a few years ago, as I have posted previously, so I will not repeat how they did that. It was very simple - drivers' common sense and re-routing at peak times. (b) First treated it as a Limited Stop service, which saved time. Transdev are apparently not doing that, so are losing time, but are still trying to run to First's timetable, which is not possible. (c) Transdev's drivers do not know the route, they spend too long at stops and they drive too slowly. (d) Transdev's fancy buses are much slower to accelerate than First's Streetdecks, probably because of all the tables, heavy seats, weighty glass roof panels, bigger windows, bulky induction chargers, bulky seat backs, reading lights (most of which do not work any more), stop buttons in every seat back and the fairy lights below the windows. Until they do exactly what First did; find some more power from the engine; and speed the drivers up, then they will be late every time. I do not know why Alex Hornby doesn't read this thread. The answers are all here for free. He's probably too busy telling everyone how amazing everything is, when it isn't. It would be better if Connexions ran the service. Imagine saying that a few years ago, but that is the reality of how far Transdev have fallen, and how poor they now are. The X98/99 is just going to be another service to add to the growing failure list. CityZap x2. Vamooz. Harrogate to Skipton. Harrogate to Ilkley. You appear to be treating this as if Transdev had perfect information and have decided to run late deliberately, that simply isn't how it works. Generally when taking over a route all you have is the publicly available information (so a timetable & if you are lucky a map) so there is a lot of guessing and assumption - and all this has to be done in little more than a month to get the replacement service registered. It is clear from this that First were, unusually, using a lot of small unobvious 'tricks' to keep a reliable timetable and these things don't get picked up when a new operator takes over and need to be re-learned (or alternative & possibly better ones found). I have actually experienced these sort of issues in my job, we took over a route from another operator which had a slightly convoluted routeing which avoided a major hospital in one direction so we picked a different shorter route that served the hospital (which we had used in the past on other routes with little issue). Within a week we found out why the other route had been chosen as the timetable fell apart due to queues caused by cars trying to get into the Hospital car park (larger car parks had been built since we last served the area and the access system for those car parks was sub-optimal creating queues) so we had to switch back to the old route but this took some months to go through the registration process. Transdev will be closely monitoring this new service, they will already know there is an issue and they will be working on fixing it but the rules around registration submissions mean it can't be done overnight (the sort of changes being suggested, routeing & stopping arrangements, would more likely require the full 70-day notice than slight running time adjustments as the Licensing Office can be difficult about changes like that) - they may even have started doing it but we wouldn't know as it would be with the councils for consultation, they have only had a week and drivers new to a route are always a little slower at the start. Once the regular drivers get to know the route they will know where they can push it and where they need to take care, where they can make up time and where they can lose it and be more familiar with passenger ticket purchases & flows so the boarding process smooths & speeds up. The issue you mention with the roundabout is one of those that is obvious at the time but difficult to pick out the reasoning for by someone coming in later, particularly in the little time available & with the limited information available, but the reasoning probably becomes obvious quite quickly. The Limited Stop having that sort of impact probably would be a surprise, my employers have often done things like this by taking out historic limited stop restrictions after taking over a route and it has rarely had any impact on running times at all and certainly never so significant that it impacted reliability. The question for Transdev will be whether it is better to restore the limited stop ruling in some form or revise the timetable to reflect the extra time needed (is the cost of the extra resource less than the extra income from local traffic). Given that First have pulled off the route what First were doing wasn't the best way to do it either so Transdev need to find what works for them - some of what First did would have been positive and some may have harmed the route whilst ticking one box like reliability. The E400MMCs aren't underpowered, they have bigger engines that the First Streetdecks & the weight impact of the extra fittings you mention are minimal in this sense, the slow acceleration is more likely to be different (better?) driver training with Transdev putting more emphasis on smooth driving to make a more comfortable journey. This wouldn't surprise me, when I was working in West Yorkshire over a decade ago Leeds drivers had a reputation for poor customer service (all operators & all depots, and this came from staff at Metro when discussing complaints on Leeds based services) so, even ignoring the difference in business philosophies between the two companies or between big city drivers & small town/interurban based driviers, it would be easy to assume that Transdev staff from York or Harrogate (or Keighley, Halifax or Huddersfield) would have a more customer focussed driving style than Leeds based ones. Transdev are probably going to need to add an extra bus into the cycle somewhere if they want to offer their level of service with a reliable timetable but that may be a beneficial option in the long term as it is clear the First times just about fitted their service delivery model but not possibly how Transdev do (such as smooth driving and careful stop departure). As for the comment about newly acquired school buses being newer than some of the normal service fleet, well that often happens as you buy the newest suitable buses you can afford so you don't have to keep buying buses every few years. If I am thinking about the right vehicles Transdev have effectively replaced 25 year old buses with 12 year old buses so the new school buses could last them more than a decade before they need replacement, if they had bought 17 year old buses so they remain the oldest buses then they need to replace them every few years (my employers have also recently done this so our double-deck school buses have gone from being some of the oldest buses in the company to almost the newest in the depot). Transdev may be prone, like many big or high profile companies, to a bit of hyperbole but at least they try to do things better, their focus on the positive and less emphasis on the negative isn't a Transdev trait you could aim that at any company in the end. You list a few Transdev 'failures' but that is down to Transdev being an innovative business, if you don't try things you fail less but you don't develop the network - if you try you will fail more than those who don't but you will also succeed more as there is more to succeed.
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Oct 12, 2022 23:15:26 GMT 1
I've never been blocked by Alex Hornby either. I don't even use Twitter.
dwarfer - Try using the X98/99 and then you will change your mind about the acceleration. It is noticeably slower that either the old Volvo single deck 7 service and especially the Scania Omnicity single deck, X70 that I used today. It is so slow, I have thought about taking a sat-nav on board and timing the 0-30.
Transdev might be monitoring the service, but they have caused the issues by ignoring what First did. Unlike First, Transdev have failed to continue the limited stop service; have failing to avoid the congested route into Leeds at peak times; have failed to provide buses with adequate acceleration for an urban into rural area service that has a lot of stops, but a lot of 50 mph speed limits; failed to train drivers adequately on such a route, such that they spend too much time at stops, and drive too slowly.
There were 2 drivers shuttling back to Harrogate on the 7 service today. I think one had been teaching the other on the X98/99 route previously as there was a discussion about how to sign on. New drivers through narrow villages in a wide bus is not helping speed either.
Transdev are not just prone "to a bit of hyperbole". Hyperbole seems to be their modus operandi. "Amazing"; "Award Winning"; "Riding Redefined"; "Sky Class"; "Proud to be Seen on".
And the reality is it's still a bus. It's cold, it's late, it's slow, it smells, rubbish is rolling around the floor; it's cancelled and/or the timetable isn't as frequent as it once was. What is innovative about that?
I passed the X99 on the way home tonight. It was 25 minutes late, AGAIN.
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Post by westriding on Oct 13, 2022 15:11:00 GMT 1
In view of the wild claims and the anti-Transdev rants from some correspondents here I decided to look for myself. Boarding a spotlessly clean bus with a friendly driver which left Boar Lane promptly at 1133 it started well until being locked into a typical Leeds gridlock in Eastgate. Still stationary at 1205 I decided to abandon and will make a more detailed report next time.
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Post by mk2mcw on Oct 13, 2022 16:02:45 GMT 1
We have to be a bit realistic here transdev have only been running the route for a little while and there are bound to be teething problems while they work out what is wrong with the route most operators have this issue when they start a new route or take over an existing one it would be the same for any respectable operator be it first arriva connexions squarepeg or transdev I’m sure in due course they’ll find their feet and the route will settle down so we should give them the BOD and hope they sort it
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Oct 18, 2022 15:24:59 GMT 1
Transdev will not "work out what is wrong with the route" because there was far less wrong with it, before they took it over. They are the cause of the problems, not the solution. I have highlighted them before, so I will not keep repeating them. I will just prove what I have previously said.
I last used the service, last Thursday. It was only 1 minute late at the stop, which is the least amount of time it has been late when I have used it. There was plenty of rubbish left over from the early morning commuter runs, because it never goes near a bus station where there are any cleaners, and even if the drivers are supposed to do it, they never have any time as the service is always late at either end, and would be even later making the return journey if they turned into Wombles.
I took a GPS with me and a digital thermometer. The 0-25 acceleration times (I didn't measure 0-30 as it rarely got there) were between 14 and 18 seconds, depending on the terrain and how hard the driver was trying. As I have said already, that is one of the reasons for the persistent lateness - the snail-like acceleration.
The top-speed reached was 49 mph, once and briefly, down-hill. On most of the 50 mph sections the speed was around 42-45 mph. On the 50 mph gradient before Scarcroft, the speed fell to 38 mph before the gearbox changed down to try and maintain speed, but the speed fell further to 36 mph. Another reason for the persistent lateness - the lack of engine power.
At one stop, it took 3 minutes to board 6 people. No one was disabled or had a push-chair. Every stop seems to take at least 30 seconds per person. Everyone paid with a card or a pass. There are more than 50 stops between Wetherby and Leeds. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the service is no longer a limited stop service.
The bus arrived into Leeds late.
As for the on-board temperature, it was 17.1C when I boarded. No windows were open. It was a sunny day, and the temperature eventually rose to 18.2C. The minimum temperature on most cars' HVAC system is 18C.
And the 15:04 X99 from Wetherby to Leeds is already 15 minutes late. Track it, if you don't believe me. Imagine how late it will be when it eventually reaches Leeds. I picked that service at random as it is the current service when I am typing this post. That is a service in the middle of the day, that came in late from Leeds, as usual, even though the roads are not busy.
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Post by deerfold on Oct 18, 2022 15:50:06 GMT 1
As for the on-board temperature, it was 17.1C when I boarded. No windows were open. It was a sunny day, and the temperature eventually rose to 18.2C. The minimum temperature on most cars' HVAC system is 18C. Is there anything wrong with this temperature? Most people boarding a bus will be wearing a jumper or coat. It's slightly hotter than my house is at the moment. Have you contacted Trandev about your many issues with the service?
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Oct 18, 2022 16:22:42 GMT 1
The 15:33 X98 Leeds to Deighton Bar left 30 minutes late.
The 16:03 X99 Leeds to Wetherby left 15 minutes late.
The 16:04 X99 Leeds to Wetherby is expected to leave 24 minutes late.
The 16:33 X98 Leeds to Deighton Bar is also expected to be late.
The service is not fit for purpose.
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Post by deerfold on Oct 18, 2022 16:46:58 GMT 1
The 15:33 X98 Leeds to Deighton Bar left 30 minutes late. The 16:03 X99 Leeds to Wetherby left 15 minutes late. The 16:04 X99 Leeds to Wetherby is expected to leave 24 minutes late. The 16:33 X98 Leeds to Deighton Bar is also expected to be late. The service is not fit for purpose. I'll try again. Have you been in touch with Transdev?
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Oct 18, 2022 16:53:45 GMT 1
I must admit though that the type of bus used isn't really suited to a stop start route with frequent slow and fast sections in quick succession like the X98/9. They were ideal for non stop services like City Zap, and perhaps would be better used on Coastliner, with some of the B5s moved over to the X98/9 as these can cope better being used on the 36 which has a similar style of stop start slow/fast route. A first driver once commented that the buses used on the X84 are great.... but only once you finally got them going! I could see his point as the X84 vehicles struggled with the X98/9 in terms of reaching maximun speed quickly.
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kendall17
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Post by kendall17 on Oct 18, 2022 19:03:26 GMT 1
I took a GPS with me and a digital thermometer. The 0-25 acceleration times (I didn't measure 0-30 as it rarely got there) were between 14 and 18 seconds, depending on the terrain and how hard the driver was trying. As I have said already, that is one of the reasons for the persistent lateness - the snail-like acceleration. The top-speed reached was 49 mph, once and briefly, down-hill. On most of the 50 mph sections the speed was around 42-45 mph. On the 50 mph gradient before Scarcroft, the speed fell to 38 mph before the gearbox changed down to try and maintain speed, but the speed fell further to 36 mph. Another reason for the persistent lateness - the lack of engine power. This is quite worrying. Not the acceleration detail, but the fact you took a GPS monitor on board. You do realise that a few MPH will only make seconds different on such short distances. It wont solve the lateness. Your other observations will, however.
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