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Post by dlspotter on Feb 22, 2021 11:11:33 GMT 1
Has anyone found an image with the boards on?
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Post by edmundwells on Feb 22, 2021 11:18:36 GMT 1
Looks like they are now implementing the connecting Leeds " overground lines" style on first bus leeds destinations and blinds now 🤔🤔. It is a little confusing Well if they are that's just first rate stupid, a bit like these lines. Take White Rose line, I bet you'll get people boarding service 1 expecting it to go to the White Rose Centre after seeing 'White Rose Line' on the destination...8<... . ...and don't get me started on the 5 (city-Halton Moor) being part of the Crossgates Line!
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Post by twansport on Feb 22, 2021 15:36:15 GMT 1
Oh and I've spotted an error which looks rather worrying. I've always thought of the Inner Ring Road as a road what encloses the city centre from Wellington Street flyover, to Marsh Lane, but it seems to have expanded big time as the Ingram Distributer is now called Inner Ring Road on these maps! Bad enough this dam council have expanded the city centre all the way out to cover much of Holbeck, and by the looks of things possibly a good part of Hunslet. I live 2.5 miles from Briggate which in my view is where the city centre proper is, but it wouldn't surprise me if this dam council made out that Beeston was on the doorstep of the city centre when attracting developers, after all it seems to be creeping closer and closer. It’s not an error but reliant on at least one project (and another one that might be dead in the water) Currently the inner ring road effectively is the city motorway from near Armley Gyratory to Quarry Hill, with no southern ring. That is delivered by the southern edge of the city loop for local traffic and the M621 for through traffic. Wellington Street and Neville Street attract substantial volumes of through traffic because it is the shortest and quickest route for E/SE-W/NW traffic through Leeds. A desire is to reduce traffic on this stretch to enable works to improve city square. As a result, the city loop at the southern side of the city centre is being pushed out to the M621. The hope was that this would include the M621 upgrade that includes 3 running lanes between J3 and J2 of the M621 as well as junction changes at J2A and J3
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Post by leeds rider on Feb 22, 2021 19:16:12 GMT 1
Oh and I've spotted an error which looks rather worrying. I've always thought of the Inner Ring Road as a road what encloses the city centre from Wellington Street flyover, to Marsh Lane, but it seems to have expanded big time as the Ingram Distributer is now called Inner Ring Road on these maps! Bad enough this dam council have expanded the city centre all the way out to cover much of Holbeck, and by the looks of things possibly a good part of Hunslet. I live 2.5 miles from Briggate which in my view is where the city centre proper is, but it wouldn't surprise me if this dam council made out that Beeston was on the doorstep of the city centre when attracting developers, after all it seems to be creeping closer and closer. It’s not an error but reliant on at least one project (and another one that might be dead in the water) Currently the inner ring road effectively is the city motorway from near Armley Gyratory to Quarry Hill, with no southern ring. That is delivered by the southern edge of the city loop for local traffic and the M621 for through traffic. Wellington Street and Neville Street attract substantial volumes of through traffic because it is the shortest and quickest route for E/SE-W/NW traffic through Leeds. A desire is to reduce traffic on this stretch to enable works to improve city square. As a result, the city loop at the southern side of the city centre is being pushed out to the M621. The hope was that this would include the M621 upgrade that includes 3 running lanes between J3 and J2 of the M621 as well as junction changes at J2A and J3 I've always understood the IRR to include the Ingram Distributor A643 and the M621 from junction 2 to somewhere around J3 or J4. The missing link was between Marsh Lane and M621 J4, but this was filled some years ago by the John Smeaton Viaduct (see e.g. www.newsteelconstruction.com/wp/bridging-the-missing-link-2/). If you ask me, the missing link now is a grade separated connection between the elevated A64(M) and the Viaduct to avoid having to navigate the horrible mess that is Marsh Lane - although, of course, this is all academic at the moment as you can't even get from the A64 to Marsh Lane because of the bridge works!
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Post by jonny182 on Feb 22, 2021 19:34:43 GMT 1
Has anyone found an image with the boards on? Here are some photos of the destination blinds showing the corridor route line.
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Post by FIYHANunDer on Feb 22, 2021 20:18:53 GMT 1
Looks like they are now implementing the connecting Leeds " overground lines" style on first bus leeds destinations and blinds now 🤔🤔. It is a little confusing Well if they are that's just first rate stupid, a bit like these lines. Take White Rose line, I bet you'll get people boarding service 1 expecting it to go to the White Rose Centre after seeing 'White Rose Line' on the destination, lucky for some it's only a 20 minute walk from the terminus, but it is a long way for others. I bet service 1 destinations don't automatically change to show Headingley line (or whatever it is) as soon as it hits the city centre on Bishopsgate Street. Then you've got what I would describe as the better, but not quite described White Rose line group of services, 2/3/3A. Better as in 2 go to White Rose, and the other (bus 2) goes within a 5 to 10 minute walk of it. However, I bet you'll see people again boarding bus 2 expecting it to serve White Rose, and ending up in Middleton wondering when it'll reach White Rose. You've also got those expecting bus 2 to say Thorpe Lane, only to see White Rose on the front, that'll cause confusion too as I bet they'll either let it pass, or stop it and argue with the driver that he is showing White Rose Centre. Middleton Line is about the only route what makes sense, and even then you've got the issue of what happens to the destination when it reaches Leeds centre. If every route serving an individual area had it's own line name, then it'll make sense, but grouping services together that serve completely different parts of the city, such as the 1,2,3,3A (service 1 serving vastly different parts of Beeston up to 1 mile from to the 2/3/3A, and service 2 serving Middleton) then it's just being lazy to be frank. Do they seriously expect people living at the top end of Beeston walk down to Dewsbury Road on a daily basis for their bus? I could maybe understand if they called it Black Line along side the 51 and 52, as all 3 do run close (within a 5 or 10 minute walk such as the terminus to Drysalters, Co Op to Elland Road etc) over a few bits of route, but even then it's stretching things a bit. Oh and I've spotted an error which looks rather worrying. I've always thought of the Inner Ring Road as a road what encloses the city centre from Wellington Street flyover, to Marsh Lane, but it seems to have expanded big time as the Ingram Distributer is now called Inner Ring Road on these maps! Bad enough this dam council have expanded the city centre all the way out to cover much of Holbeck, and by the looks of things possibly a good part of Hunslet. I live 2.5 miles from Briggate which in my view is where the city centre proper is, but it wouldn't surprise me if this dam council made out that Beeston was on the doorstep of the city centre when attracting developers, after all it seems to be creeping closer and closer. Do you ever have anything good to say? Really boring now. You say its "first rate stupid" you have no idea what is going on in the background. No idea of the work being undertaken now and in the future so I put it to you that its not First who are stupid, maybe check out a mirror before wild accusations with the minimal of knowledge you have of the industry or what is trying to be achieved. This is new, we have better designed bus stops/flags/shelters. Yes it will take time for people to get used to it but in 6 months time no-one will be talking about it. The buses fitted with AV will automatically change destinations in the City to show the relevant line name. I doubt people wanting the White Rose will catch a 1 showing Beeston, the service number and destination is the biggest part of the destination and the vast majority of customers already know what buses go where.
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Feb 22, 2021 20:29:12 GMT 1
Well if they are that's just first rate stupid, a bit like these lines. Take White Rose line, I bet you'll get people boarding service 1 expecting it to go to the White Rose Centre after seeing 'White Rose Line' on the destination, lucky for some it's only a 20 minute walk from the terminus, but it is a long way for others. I bet service 1 destinations don't automatically change to show Headingley line (or whatever it is) as soon as it hits the city centre on Bishopsgate Street. Then you've got what I would describe as the better, but not quite described White Rose line group of services, 2/3/3A. Better as in 2 go to White Rose, and the other (bus 2) goes within a 5 to 10 minute walk of it. However, I bet you'll see people again boarding bus 2 expecting it to serve White Rose, and ending up in Middleton wondering when it'll reach White Rose. You've also got those expecting bus 2 to say Thorpe Lane, only to see White Rose on the front, that'll cause confusion too as I bet they'll either let it pass, or stop it and argue with the driver that he is showing White Rose Centre. Middleton Line is about the only route what makes sense, and even then you've got the issue of what happens to the destination when it reaches Leeds centre. If every route serving an individual area had it's own line name, then it'll make sense, but grouping services together that serve completely different parts of the city, such as the 1,2,3,3A (service 1 serving vastly different parts of Beeston up to 1 mile from to the 2/3/3A, and service 2 serving Middleton) then it's just being lazy to be frank. Do they seriously expect people living at the top end of Beeston walk down to Dewsbury Road on a daily basis for their bus? I could maybe understand if they called it Black Line along side the 51 and 52, as all 3 do run close (within a 5 or 10 minute walk such as the terminus to Drysalters, Co Op to Elland Road etc) over a few bits of route, but even then it's stretching things a bit. Oh and I've spotted an error which looks rather worrying. I've always thought of the Inner Ring Road as a road what encloses the city centre from Wellington Street flyover, to Marsh Lane, but it seems to have expanded big time as the Ingram Distributer is now called Inner Ring Road on these maps! Bad enough this dam council have expanded the city centre all the way out to cover much of Holbeck, and by the looks of things possibly a good part of Hunslet. I live 2.5 miles from Briggate which in my view is where the city centre proper is, but it wouldn't surprise me if this dam council made out that Beeston was on the doorstep of the city centre when attracting developers, after all it seems to be creeping closer and closer. Do you ever have anything good to say? Really boring now. You say its "first rate stupid" you have no idea what is going on in the background. No idea of the work being undertaken now and in the future so I put it to you that its not First who are stupid, maybe check out a mirror before wild accusations with the minimal of knowledge you have of the industry or what is trying to be achieved. This is new, we have better designed bus stops/flags/shelters. Yes it will take time for people to get used to it but in 6 months time no-one will be talking about it. The buses fitted with AV will automatically change destinations in the City to show the relevant line name. I doubt people wanting the White Rose will catch a 1 showing Beeston, the service number and destination is the biggest part of the destination and the vast majority of customers already know what buses go where. Well, I know Halton Moor IS NOT NEAR CROSS GATES, and I've seen buses on the 3 and 3A display Meanwood line. You're clearly not from Leeds so don't know yourself what is going on. Oh and by the way, you're right, it's not First that are stupid, I clearly never said that, It's the idiots behind Connecting Leeds just to be clear. And how do you know that someone won't board a bus based on it saying xxx line and going nowhere near, got a crystal ball handy?
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39231
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Post by 39231 on Feb 22, 2021 22:32:03 GMT 1
weird thing is saw a number 1 tonight on way from work to home and that said beeston line on it
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Post by deerfold on Feb 22, 2021 23:27:26 GMT 1
Has there been any publicity to the general public about this or is it just something else to confuse, like buses saying "Pulse" on them?
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Feb 22, 2021 23:30:12 GMT 1
Has there been any publicity to the general public about this or is it just something else to confuse, like buses saying "Pulse" on them? Obviously not, being in the middle of Covid, but I expect there will be at a later date. It looks to me First have jumped the gun. They do like redesigning their destination screens every few months.
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Feb 23, 2021 7:54:52 GMT 1
Has there been any publicity to the general public about this or is it just something else to confuse, like buses saying "Pulse" on them? Obviously not, being in the middle of Covid, but I expect there will be at a later date. It looks to me First have jumped the gun. They do like redesigning their destination screens every few months. Believe it was WYCA that asked for the screens to be changed from this weekend. Arriva should be following soon for their Leeds services.
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Feb 23, 2021 8:13:45 GMT 1
Obviously not, being in the middle of Covid, but I expect there will be at a later date. It looks to me First have jumped the gun. They do like redesigning their destination screens every few months. Believe it was WYCA that asked for the screens to be changed from this weekend. Arriva should be following soon for their Leeds services. Yes there has, but in the true style of this whole scheme, it's very hit and miss, hap hazard, not very well organised lol. There are a random number of bus stops throughout Leeds with one of the following to promote the scheme. 1) just a new bus stop flag, 2) new flag and a leaflet attached inside the timetable case explaining about the scheme, 3) new flag, new map but no leaflet and 4) new flag, leaflet and map. Yes I know Covid is on going, but you'd think they'd delay the launch until there are enough staff to fully roll out the scheme as some stops have been half complete for over a month now. Oh, and I've even seen some stops on Boar Lane with the colour vinals on the glass itself, now what a waste of money that is as I believe these stops are to be replaced very soon.
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Feb 23, 2021 8:18:31 GMT 1
weird thing is saw a number 1 tonight on way from work to home and that said beeston line on it They are indeed, maybe someone has cottoned on to what I was pointing out earlier, but in the true mixed up style of this scheme some are displaying Headingley Line in Beeston too. I wonder if Beeston Line taxi's might have something to say lol.
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Post by Burnside on Feb 23, 2021 21:19:04 GMT 1
There is a map of the 'lines' at: www.yourvoice.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/leedscorebusnetwork, but it must be an old version, as it shows Leeds to Beeston as route 10. Interestingly, it doesn't show the 27 as being part of the 'Headingley line' despite the photo of a destination display in one of the posts above.
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Feb 23, 2021 22:09:50 GMT 1
I've decided to do the work for Connecting Leeds and re-name every main First service as follows.
1 The Old Line (as in the oldest route in Leeds) 2/12 Mid-Moor Line (as in half of Middleton and Moortown combined) 3/3A Lidget Rose Line (Lidget Lane and White Rose combined) 4/4G East West Line 5 City Line 6 Holt Line West 7 group under Super Line 8 Holt Line East 13/13A Wood Line (Brakenwood and Middleton Woods lol) 16/A Wander Line 19/A The Traveller 27 Trinity Line 28 Adel Line 33/4 North West Line 40 East Leeds Circuit 42 Old Fearn Line (Old Farnley/Fearnville combined) 49 Bramgate Line (Bramley and Monkswood Gate combined 50/A Horscroft Line (Horsforth and Seacroft combined) 51/52 Morley Moor Line (a nod to both Morley and Moor Allerton, although you could also call it Elland Moor Line) 56 Grangemoor Line (Whinmoor and Moor Grange combined) 64 named as it is by Connexions (as in The 64) 74 and 75 given the title Southern Connect as they connect virtually every bit of suburban south Leeds 91 given the title East-North-West link for obvious reasons X98 and X99 titled Wetherby Express
Each service would have an individual colour attached, including the use of multicolour on some lines (like they have done to show the X10) to aid easy reading. Now, groups of services that serve a major area would simply be coded with a thick black line on the map to indicate the area is served by many different services, with the names of these services placed in a box alongside the line.
I'd leave many of the Arriva services alone to be honest, as although they do provide frequent services in Leeds, it's really hard to put them under a particular line name due to serving so many areas/towns on route.
About the only one you could name is the 444, which could come under Rothwell Line.
Even though I do say so myself, I think I've done a better job lol.
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Post by stevieinselby on Feb 24, 2021 0:07:03 GMT 1
I have to say that I can't see the sense in the proposal to create 'lines'.
There are 17 'lines', but most lines are made up of multiple services, often following very different routes along the way and ending up in completely different places. The worst two are probably the Headingley line – which has 1, 6, 8, 19, 19A, 27, 28, 29 and 56 to its name – and the Cross Gates line – which is made up of 5, 19, 19A, X26, X27, 40, 163 and 166, but there are several other strong contenders.
Fourteen routes that run cross-city services are on different lines on each side of the city ... so some of the buses that come into Leeds as the St James Line will become Kirkstall Line buses, others change to Old Farnley Line and the rest morph into Pudsey Line. This means that even if they wanted to there would be no opportunity to use route-branded buses, so the only clue is going to be a small note on the destination blind that (if it's reversed) is hard to read and takes up valuable space that could be showing something useful instead. Because routes change between different lines, it is not at all obvious from looking at the map that they do run any cross-city services.
It isn't consistent: â–¶ Some interurban routes are included in the lines but the X84 is not, even though it runs every 15 minutes to Otley and so would meet the criteria. â–¶ Some half-hourly interurban routes are shown on the map, but the 64 and 164 are not, and several suburban routes that run every half-hour are not shown. â–¶ The 7A and 7S are not included in the network, even though they run a combined 15-minute frequency over a long section of route and on the same corridor as the Meanwood Line.
It seems very much like a solution that's looking for a problem, and one that will actually create more confusion for passengers without adding any benefits to anyone other than the consultancy and design teams that are being paid for it. It's the kind of plan that might work if you were designing the network from scratch and so were able to create coherent corridors and match up cross-city services, but just to overlay it onto the existing network just seems like a bad case of somethingmustbedoneism.
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Post by jonny182 on Feb 24, 2021 12:30:04 GMT 1
I have to say that I can't see the sense in the proposal to create 'lines'. There are 17 'lines', but most lines are made up of multiple services, often following very different routes along the way and ending up in completely different places. The worst two are probably the Headingley line – which has 1, 6, 8, 19, 19A, 27, 28, 29 and 56 to its name – and the Cross Gates line – which is made up of 5, 19, 19A, X26, X27, 40, 163 and 166, but there are several other strong contenders. Fourteen routes that run cross-city services are on different lines on each side of the city ... so some of the buses that come into Leeds as the St James Line will become Kirkstall Line buses, others change to Old Farnley Line and the rest morph into Pudsey Line. This means that even if they wanted to there would be no opportunity to use route-branded buses, so the only clue is going to be a small note on the destination blind that (if it's reversed) is hard to read and takes up valuable space that could be showing something useful instead. Because routes change between different lines, it is not at all obvious from looking at the map that they do run any cross-city services. It isn't consistent: ▶ Some interurban routes are included in the lines but the X84 is not, even though it runs every 15 minutes to Otley and so would meet the criteria. ▶ Some half-hourly interurban routes are shown on the map, but the 64 and 164 are not, and several suburban routes that run every half-hour are not shown. ▶ The 7A and 7S are not included in the network, even though they run a combined 15-minute frequency over a long section of route and on the same corridor as the Meanwood Line. It seems very much like a solution that's looking for a problem, and one that will actually create more confusion for passengers without adding any benefits to anyone other than the consultancy and design teams that are being paid for it. It's the kind of plan that might work if you were designing the network from scratch and so were able to create coherent corridors and match up cross-city services, but just to overlay it onto the existing network just seems like a bad case of somethingmustbedoneism. The bus network maps really need to show all bus routes. These could be coloured grey or have a lighter typeface. There are several routes all around which run less frequently but still run all day everyday to many areas not served by more frequent routes. The new maps displayed at shelters appear to show most of these areas not served by any bus at all which in fact there may be one or more less frequent services.
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Post by westriding on Feb 24, 2021 12:41:57 GMT 1
The removal of the smaller display cases from bus stops does indicate there is little chance of departure times being posted when there is a return to normal working. The larger display cases have been used locally in Morley with a map showing bus routes radiating from Leeds, but overlook we also have services to Wakefield, Dewsbury and Bradford. Why?
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Feb 24, 2021 12:58:10 GMT 1
The removal of the smaller display cases from bus stops does indicate there is little chance of departure times being posted when there is a return to normal working. The larger display cases have been used locally in Morley with a map showing bus routes radiating from Leeds, but overlook we also have services to Wakefield, Dewsbury and Bradford. Why? They are very Leeds centric for some reason, and like you've said, not everyone from Morley travels often to Leeds, there are many who prefer to travel to Dewsbury, Wakefield and Bradford more often than Leeds simply because these places have what they need in an easy to find way, where as Leeds doesn't and is just too much for them. You've also got major employment centres on the way to Bradrord, Wakefield etc within walking distance of the 425/7 route, take Junction 27 retail park, just a 10 minute walk from the last stop in Gildersome, Capitol business park, passed by one of them and a 5 minute walk from the other, and Junction 41 Industrial Estate with the nearby business park, a short 15 or so minute walk from Bradford Road, Wrenthorpe.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Feb 24, 2021 14:47:58 GMT 1
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Post by yorkstk on Feb 24, 2021 17:03:38 GMT 1
Leeds already had coloured lines in the early 2000, no idea why they got rid of it as it worked flic.kr/p/eaezZB
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Feb 24, 2021 18:08:21 GMT 1
Well indeed, but the key difference here is that many routes have the same colour, so Headingley is all one colour rather than the 1 being brown, 6 being sky blue and the others being nothing, which I think works better
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Feb 24, 2021 18:50:30 GMT 1
Well indeed, but the key difference here is that many routes have the same colour, so Headingley is all one colour rather than the 1 being brown, 6 being sky blue and the others being nothing, which I think works better Not so sure about that, may work to simplyfy routes through Headingley centre, but not to group together routes that serve totally different places. Halton Moor for example is miles from Cross Gates, and the 5 doesn't even touch the outskirts of Cross Gates, yet it's bundled together with a whole load of others in East Leeds under Cross Gates Line. Service 7 does serve Meanwood, and all 3 7s have always been tagged together, but that doesn't really work if you catch a 7A or 7s expecting those to go to Meanwood as it's quite a walk from Scott Hall Road. There are many other examples throughout Leeds so although messy, routes having separate colours works much better.
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Steve Macz403
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Post by Steve Macz403 on Feb 25, 2021 9:57:56 GMT 1
Leeds already had coloured lines in the early 2000, no idea why they got rid of it as it worked flic.kr/p/eaezZBOne thing I must compliment about the past “Overground Map” of the year 2000 it was a neat simple map. Those colours ran for a number of years too. And really did simplify a complex set of services with many numbers and A’s B’s variations that were present pre overground.
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Post by yorkslad on Feb 26, 2021 14:12:05 GMT 1
[Do you ever have anything good to say? Really boring now. You say its "first rate stupid" you have no idea what is going on in the background. No idea of the work being undertaken now and in the future so I put it to you that its not First who are stupid, maybe check out a mirror before wild accusations with the minimal of knowledge you have of the industry or what is trying to be achieved. This is new, we have better designed bus stops/flags/shelters. Yes it will take time for people to get used to it but in 6 months time no-one will be talking about it. The buses fitted with AV will automatically change destinations in the City to show the relevant line name. I doubt people wanting the White Rose will catch a 1 showing Beeston, the service number and destination is the biggest part of the destination and the vast majority of customers already know what buses go where. Not "first rate stupid" perhaps, but it could have been a bit more clear and consistent. Service 1 clearly goes nowhere near the White Rose Centre, so why call it that, apart from not wanting to introduce a new name/colour?
The point of these changes is to attract people back - they're not aimed at "the vast majority of customers" but the vast majority who aren't customers yet. Let's say I live in Leeds and get a job at Merrion House (or whatever it's called these days). Do I get a White Rose Line bus to City Square and change to a Headingley Line bus, or walk; or stay on the same bus? How will I know? That's what the map and associated information on stop plates and shelters should be telling me. Looking at photos I took of the plate and map in the shelter outside Asda on Oldfield Lane the casual passenger would have no idea that service 42 runs through the centre.
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