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Post by nick on Apr 4, 2008 17:20:25 GMT 1
But you have to remember that there is a 10 minute frequency between Wyke Robin Hood-Shipley Market Place starting from 0637 till about 1646.
The service is complicated but what could happen is they could introduce a 622 service on sundays. The 622(Re-Numbered 628) could then go on sundays from Scholes-Brighouse Bus Station to join the layover which happens at the Bus Station. The Scholes-Bus Station part could easiley make it in 10 minutes as it could go Scholes Lane,Walton Lane,Highmoor Lane,Common,Clift Road,Wakefiled Rd,Elland Lane then to the bus station that way creating the 20 minutes freuqency during sunday day times. Here is what it would look like during the sunday day times:
625-Brighouse Bus Station to Baildon(Weekday 626 route) 627-Brighouse Bus Station to Shipley Glen(Weekday 626 to Bradford/624 to Shipley route) 628-Brighouse Bus Station to Eldwick(Route to Scholes/Weekday 622 Route to Eldwick)
On Eveings the 628 could do the Brighouse Bus Station to Bradford Interchange part of the route with a different service number doing the eldwick route specially allocated to do that part of the journey.
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m60800
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Post by m60800 on Apr 5, 2008 1:02:57 GMT 1
West Yorkshire Bus This is why the 99/X98 dosnt need a overground to it. What it needs first is a nice retimed timetable maybe the 99 every 40 minutes with the X98 every hour creating the every 20 frequency between Leeds and whetherby and if H&D can be bothered retiming the 770 alongside metro this would mean a every 10 minute service which you are looking for (between the two bus firms) Also before that happens the 99/X98 route needs to have a improvment in the fleet. The perfect solution is to send three or four of the dual doors from Kirstall to Cherry Row and see how they perform on a rural routing(they do fine on the X84). Lets not forget that until recently the x98 was a peak time only service using Atlanteans, I assume off school workings. It's a great improvement nowadays (although the Atlanteans are sadly missed, personally!)
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Post by Craig on Apr 5, 2008 17:12:22 GMT 1
That doesn't mean the X98 doesn't deserve further upgrading though. At one time the 36 ran half-hourly with vehicles that, like the Atlantean, would be considered unusable today - and look at it now with its upgraded frequencies and fancy high-profile leather-seated Geminis! And don't forget, the 36 has a frequent rail link to compete with - the X98 has the market all to itself, if it wants it.
In reply to Nick's post and my comments on Scott Hall routes, the old service 70 was never an overground service - it only ran once per hour and interworked at Wigton Moor with an hourly 48 service. I think it might have only been introduced by First once the competition with Bigfoot had died down and they wanted to lose the unnecessary 71C bus so replaced it with the 70.
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Post by nick on Apr 5, 2008 18:46:58 GMT 1
The X98 does deserve a upgrade to every Half Hour as it is a good link with leeds which is a fast and efficent. And like i said in previous post why dont first move three or four dual doors from kirkstall to Cherry Row dedicated for that route only. As for a branding like the 36 got on the X98 has i dont think that will happen in the next few years. Thanks for the Info On the 70 route but i am sure that the 70 interworked with the 71 and had the same overground colour(peach line).
Why isnt the X6 a overground. Look at all the other overground links that First has across the region
184-Huddersfiled-Manchester-Purple Line 363-Huddersfiled-Bradford-Brown Line 503-Huddersfiled-Halifax-Orange Line 508-Halifax-Leeds-Red Line 576-Halifax-Bradford-Lime Line 590-Halifax-Rochdale-Green line 592-Halifax-Burnley-Green Line
So why hasnt First/Metro decided that the X6 needs to be upgraded to a Overground route. Is it because of the competion from the 72/15/670/88 on the Leeds-Bradford and the 363 on the huddersfiled-bradford or the improved train links between Leeds-Bradford. The X6 could be easiley upgraded to a 10 minute frequnecy between Leeds-Bradford with the journey taking just over 30 Minutes.
Also could it be beneficial to have a limted stop route on the Leeds-Halifax route. Maybe First Bradford Leeds-Bradford-Halifax (X8) like the X6(Leeds-B'Fd-H'filed). They could interwork at LCBS and have the 10 minute frequnecy between Leeds and Bradford and both be a overground???
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m60800
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Post by m60800 on Apr 5, 2008 19:05:54 GMT 1
That doesn't mean the X98 doesn't deserve further upgrading though. At one time the 36 ran half-hourly with vehicles that, like the Atlantean, would be considered unusable today - and look at it now with its upgraded frequencies and fancy high-profile leather-seated Geminis! And don't forget, the 36 has a frequent rail link to compete with - the X98 has the market all to itself, if it wants it. I think you've hit the nail on the head there - rail competition. Nothing to compete with going to Wetherby so why bother! Could be why the Otley routes have always had the oldest vehicles too (from Bradford and Leeds.) In fact most of the old West Yorkshire Road Car routes seem to be treated this way!
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Post by jackh on Apr 5, 2008 19:14:00 GMT 1
I suppose that could be an idea as the X6 does get fairly loaded, but I somehow don't think that you and revol have taken into account that just doubling or tripling a routes frequency is an easy process for a company to make! They will need the extra buses and staff. Furthermore it is a commercial risk as it may not work. Who will pay for such a mistake at the end of the day? The Passenger!
The increase in express services between the two cities with the addition of this X8 service you suggested which would go to Halifax instead of Huddersfield. With that, the current 681 could get replaced by this X8 which would follow the 681 route. However, if you look at the journey time of the 681 into Bradford and then the X6 into Leeds it would just take as long as the 508! Plus this X8 would just undermine the 508 anyway.
Anyhow, dual doors on the X98. Why may I ask!!!? You would degrade the route by allocating step entrance deckers that are 10 years old to a route that was previously operated by new low floor singles! Is there any purpose as well in having dual doors vehicles as these buses are better utilised on a busy corridor which the X98 isn't! If you did want to allocate an Olympian to the route, why not stick some Royales on!? Your case for Branding as well which is similar to the 36 for the X98? What would Mr Fearnley say to First dumbing his quality brand? (Ok, some small companies have stolen the livery/brand and changed it to their own liking!). Plus for First in Leeds would need permission from Aberdeen to use a none standard First brand to be applied to a specific route.
What's the next crazy idea then!?
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m60800
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Post by m60800 on Apr 5, 2008 19:57:45 GMT 1
Anyhow, dual doors on the X98. Why may I ask!!!? You would degrade the route by allocating step entrance deckers that are 10 years old to a route that was previously operated by new low floor singles! Is there any purpose as well in having dual doors vehicles as these buses are better utilised on a busy corridor which the X98 isn't! If you did want to allocate an Olympian to the route, why not stick some Royales on!? Yes that idea baffled me too! Surely a dual door is best used on a service that stops a lot, for speed of passenger movement, as opposed to a limited stop one! The ALX400's seem good enough to me.
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Post by nick on Apr 5, 2008 20:33:38 GMT 1
I suppose that could be an idea as the X6 does get fairly loaded, but I somehow don't think that you and revol have taken into account that just doubling or tripling a routes frequency is an easy process for a company to make! They will need the extra buses and staff. Furthermore it is a commercial risk as it may not work. Who will pay for such a mistake at the end of the day? The Passenger! The increase in express services between the two cities with the addition of this X8 service you suggested which would go to Halifax instead of Huddersfield. With that, the current 681 could get replaced by this X8 which would follow the 681 route. However, if you look at the journey time of the 681 into Bradford and then the X6 into Leeds it would just take as long as the 508! Plus this X8 would just undermine the 508 anyway. I understand the impact on the company employing more staff and getting more buses and yes the passanger will be the one end up paying for the mistake but if this happend it wouldnt be a mistake. As for the route the B'Ford-Halifax is a widley compeative market. You were suggesting removing the 681/682 which i wasnt. Instead Limted Stop would be implanted onto this route and it would go the present 576 route which would make the route alot shorter because it isnt stopping every 200 yards. Look at the leeds-b'ford market it is widley compeative because of the range of services that operate the route. 711 72 X6 670 15 and 88 yet all these routes manage to survive because of the different route's they take like the 670 15 711 and 88 going into all the eastates small villages before making it b'ford. This is why the X8 would survive because the 681 576 and 570 take very different routes and the X8 would only pick up at selected stops!!!! AS for the Branding on the X98 route i wasnt the one suggesting that infact i was the one who said dont expect first to brand this route in years to come!!!!
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Post by jackh on Apr 5, 2008 20:38:05 GMT 1
How is the Leeds-Bradford corridor competitive exactly when they're all operated by First?
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Apr 5, 2008 21:09:08 GMT 1
Why isn't the X6 an Overground route? Firstly Overground is really only supposed to be for urban services within a town radiating from the centre, rather than town to town links. Halifax and Huddersfield only have town to town links on their map because they wouldn't have much left otherwise. You already get the situation where there is no mention of the Lime Line 576 on the Bradford Overground map because it happens to be run by Halifax. A seperate branding, like the X6 is getting is perfectly ok
The likelyhood of the X6 going every 10 minutes is a million to one, it's too much of a risk, would need too many resources, and if you hadn't noticed, First and Arriva don't tend to make many true commercial improvements like that. An evening and sunday service and a higher frequency of every 15 mins at peak times would be more welcome
Only a few years ago the X6 was every 30 mins, the 363 every 30 mins!
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Post by Craig on Apr 5, 2008 21:59:02 GMT 1
Just to clear up any confusion, although I am singing the praises of the Wetherby route's need to be upgraded, I never thought individual route branding was the way to go (did someone else suggest this?) I was merely comparing it to the 36 in terms of how it should be a high quality commuter route, not for it to be exclusively branded like the 36 is.
I just don't see the need for this X8. We have the 72/363 and X6 six times per hour along the route, I agree with others that the X6 could be upped to every 15 mins but I don't see much of a need for an X8 extending to Halifax. Remember the 223/224 Leeds to Halifax? I think the fact that service is now just history gives you an idea of the need for that link. On a similar note, I presume Brighouse has always been a large generator of traffic for the X6 - but since the rail service was introduced and now enhanced, I wonder if this has had any impact on the X6?
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Post by nick on Apr 7, 2008 7:59:03 GMT 1
One would assume the Improved Train Link would have zero effect on the X6. Why because it takes the train 26 minutes to get to Bradford Interchange and that is on a good day(18 Minutes On The X6).
As for the Brighouse-Leeds the Train wins this time. This is because it takes the train 52 minutes to go all the way and the X6 takes Hour and 5 Minutes.
Plus i am sure that in the not to near future metro will have a plan for Elland Station so the Brighouse-Bradford Journey will be 4 minutes longer on the train and is still 18 minutes on the X6.
If first upgraded the X6 interior the X6 has a good ground to stand on because the people will want to travel on a Nice Look bus with leather seats etc and not a scruffy Class 142
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Post by jackh on Apr 7, 2008 8:23:56 GMT 1
I suppose First could have specifield nine Geminis to have had Esteban Civic seats with headrests and leather trim (similar to those at Manchester on X35) would be a good idea.
However the big but on this happening is that the Geminis remained exclusive to the X6 only and didn't wonder onto any other route evenings and Sundays, therefore the seats would not get slashed etc. Furthermore, I don't think the leather seats would last long on even if they remained on the X6 due to the likes who go to the back upstairs.
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Post by nick on Apr 7, 2008 8:35:48 GMT 1
So because they are out on evenings and Sundays we cant have the upgrade. That is stupid why don't first use there heads. If they are going to be out on Sundays and evenings then extend the evening service till about 2000 and have a all day 30 minute Sunday day time. Isn't that Logic or don't first think like that!!!
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Apr 7, 2008 17:28:57 GMT 1
When the X6 had buses that were branded, they wouldn't be ever seen on any other service, so wouldn't be out evenings and sundays
The X6 buses do now appear on other services because they are not technically branded for the X6
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Post by nick on Apr 11, 2008 17:37:27 GMT 1
Anyway I had a similar idea for Scott Halls, to have a 20-min service to Alwoodley and the other 20-min service to Shadwell. The 71 can then serve Wigton Moor at all times (not every journey, probably every 20 Min's daytime) and thus each terminus retains its current guideway service and at better frequencies too. I would number the new service 70 (Shadwell) and 70A (Alwoodley), to co-exist with the 71. So you saying that the 47 would be withdrawn from its current route and be replaced by the 71 which would be extended from Primley Park. 70 would replace the 35 and 70A would replace the 45. What could happen is the 71 stay on its normal rotation (Leeds-Primley Park). Then 70 (Your Service Number suggestion) go normal 47 route to wigton moor (although it would go High Ash Drive, High Ash Avenue, Plantation Gardens) extend to Shadwell via Wike Ridge Lane then onto Shadwell and be every 20 minutes with the journey by my calculations taking just over 40 minutes. The 70A(Again Your Service Number Suggestion) just goes the 35 Route which is fine with the journey taking around 35-40 minutes depending on Traffic etc.Thus between Leeds and Harrogate Road(Shadwell Lane Junction) makes it a every 10 minute frequency. But because Shadwell Lane has lost it every 15 minute connection(because of the 70 going via wigton moor) their could be a new service number/New Service all together. The 63 would loose its connection between Leeds/Halton Dail. That way the 63 is only doing the Leeds-Driglington Part(New Terminus in the Bus Station). The 46 then continues it's normal route with the new service been the 46A which goes between Shadwell and Halton Moor. Thus creating that every 15 minute frequency between Leeds and Shadwell (45 withdrawn) while Halton Dail still has the Half Hourley link between Halton Dail and Leeds. The New Service's/Altered Services would look something like this: 46-Gildersome-Shadwell 46A-Halton Dail-Shadwell(Old 63 Route then onto the present 46) 63-Leeds-Drighlington 70-Leeds-Alwoodley-Old 35 Route 70A-Leeds-Shadwell-Old 47 Route/New Route All together 71-Leeds-Primley Park And this way we have two potentially new overground routes with the 70/70A getting the Yellow Line while the 46/46A getting the green line!
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Post by Craig on Apr 11, 2008 21:50:26 GMT 1
Or.... we could just not?
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Post by jackh on Apr 11, 2008 22:27:07 GMT 1
Nick, with regards to the Green Line 46/46A. I have numerous points that will shoot this down from ever happening.
First of all, I don't think there is a demand for this every 10 minute route along Shadwell Lane. When ever I see a 45 or 46 at Moortown Corner heading towards Shadwell you see a handful of twirlies on. Plus down Harrogate Road/Chapeltown Road there could be a saturation of buses.
Second of all, the split of the route in Leeds, I thought with Overground routes the two deviant routes follow each other and split off closer to terminus not go on there own seperate ways in Leeds as you seem to have pointed out.
Last of all an every 20 minute service between Leeds and Halton Dial as per 63 route. Another saturation of buses. If I am correct in thinking that the 63 is subsidised by Metro, even though the evenings/Sundays 63A journeys are more frequent at every 30 minutes.
Oh shall I repeat myself, where will First get all the resources for all these changes.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Apr 11, 2008 23:20:33 GMT 1
The best way to simplify the Shadwell routes would be to combine them into one. The question is, is there demand for passengers from Shadwell who want to serve Scott Hall Road (45) and Chapeltown (46)
I can't see the 46 carrying many local passengers between Moortown Corner and Leeds as you've got the 2/3/3A running every 5 minutes
With the Scott Hall corridor serving some of Leeds's most expensive districts, I'm thinking they should have specified leather seats for these routes
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Post by jml8371 on Apr 12, 2008 5:56:36 GMT 1
Nick, with regards to the Green Line 46/46A. I have numerous points that will shoot this down from ever happening. First of all, I don't think there is a demand for this every 10 minute route along Shadwell Lane. When ever I see a 45 or 46 at Moortown Corner heading towards Shadwell you see a handful of twirlies on. Plus down Harrogate Road/Chapeltown Road there could be a saturation of buses. Second of all, the split of the route in Leeds, I thought with Overground routes the two deviant routes follow each other and split off closer to terminus not go on there own seperate ways in Leeds as you seem to have pointed out. Last of all an every 20 minute service between Leeds and Halton Dial as per 63 route. Another saturation of buses. If I am correct in thinking that the 63 is subsidised by Metro, even though the evenings/Sundays 63A journeys are more frequent at every 30 minutes. Oh shall I repeat myself, where will First get all the resources for all these changes. The 46 service is only really busy during peak times and does not need to be increased at all. Probably the busiest section of the whole route is from Vicar Lane to Holbeck, which with the 74 & 55 services, should form a 10 minute(ish) service between these 2 points. Scott Hall Road (10 mins) & Chapletown Road (5 Mins) have enough buses on there to cope at the moment. The 63 is subsidised and runs as 1 bus per hour and isn't a busy route at all. During the evening it is still 1 bus per hour, but as it only runs city square to Ivy Street, it only needs 1 bus and also has loads of layover time. Sunday daytime, the 63a is every 30 mins and goes right through to Temple Newsam house during the summer months, but terminates @ Ivy Street during the winter months. If you want to change anything, why not take the 51/51a off the M621 and put them back through Holbeck where they used to run. (It would not take very long for them to do this section) Then run a limited stop peak express from Leeds to Morley via the M621. Doing that you could then take off the 55 service, as it is duplicated by many other routes from Leeds centre and have 4 spare buses to strengthen other services. (like maybe increasing the 61 service to 20 mins) With the Scott Hall corridor serving some of Leeds's most expensive districts, I'm thinking they should have specified leather seats for these routes It might have some of the most expensive districts on it's route, but it also has some very rough one's on or very near it too. If you want to bring some hi-spec vehicles to Leeds, they should be put onto the X84 which is not only the longest Leeds based route, but also the route that gives the buses the hardest workout too.
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Post by nick on Apr 12, 2008 9:09:10 GMT 1
First of all, I don't think there is a demand for this every 10 minute route along Shadwell Lane. When ever I see a 45 or 46 at Moortown Corner heading towards Shadwell you see a handful of twirlies on. Plus down Harrogate Road/Chapeltown Road there could be a saturation of buses. Last of all an every 20 minute service between Leeds and Halton Dial as per 63 route. Another saturation of buses. If I am correct in thinking that the 63 is subsidised by Metro, even though the evenings/Sundays 63A journeys are more frequent at every 30 minutes. . You obviously didn't read the post properly. I stated that these services run every 15 minutes between Leeds and Shadwell(Bit Like X84 Between Otley and Leeds). I said this is because at current there is a every 15 minute frequency along shadwell lane if you combine the 45 and 46 journeys in one hour so with the 45 link lost it is down to the every half hour 46. Once again you didn't read the post properly. When did i ever state that their would be a 20 minute frequency between Leeds and Halton Dail frankly that would be insane thanks to all the services which serve that area. What i suggested is that the 46A goes to Halton Dail every Half Hour not every 20 minutes as you had suggested i had. The thing about the overground following each others routes. Look at the 626/622/623 which will become a overground in the next few weeks. They have different starting and finishing points with the only follow routes been the Shipley-Wyke. These routes will start in Shadwell together and follow the route until Vicar Lane in Leeds where one goes to Morley and the other heads off to halton dail!! Last of all just because it is a overground doesn't mean it has to be every 10 minutes. Just look at the 372 of Huddersfield that is a overground yet that service is again like i was suggesting with the 46/46A a every 15 minute's. I Understand that thing about resources
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Apr 13, 2008 12:16:34 GMT 1
Another area which has a quite messy service network is Cottingley in Leeds, with different daytime and evening and sunday services. It should be simplified in some way
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Post by jackh on Apr 13, 2008 13:45:38 GMT 1
Yes I suppose the 45 and 46 could get axed in North Leeds and the 46 keeps its route in South Leeds. The 55 would be extended northwards to cover the 45/46 and follow the 46 route.
However I still don't think it should be granted an Overground route status as it doesn't follow the trend of *high* frequency services that are every 10 minutes or better as they are in Leeds.
If this was an Overground route, then every route and its dog would have to be one as well. That would result in the Natural Hessian Line etc with colours inspired by Dulux Paint.
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Post by nick on Apr 13, 2008 14:01:34 GMT 1
Simple idea which would work is an extension of the 3/3A which only takes 2 minutes to get to cottingley on a good day. Withdraw the 55 leaving 4 extra buses which could be allocated to a service which is needing a big improvement. The 51/51A then go via Holdbeck instead of the M621. 1 Withdrawn from Cottingley on Sundays and evenings and the 87 doesn't go via cottingley anymore.This way Cottingley and Holdbeck has a Every 10 minute Frequency to Leeds
The Cottingley mess is cleaned up because it has two service's operating in the area 3/3A and the 46 because the 87 doesn't call in cottingley anymore.
This way no more resources are needed no extra buses are needed and a service elsewhere in Leeds will get a much needed improvement!
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Post by jackh on Apr 13, 2008 14:07:12 GMT 1
When did the 46 get involved! That follows the 220/221 into Morley from White Rose Centre.
I suppose the 55 could run into evenings and Sundays so would make it even more simpler. Plus the Bramley drivers will sigh with relief as they don't have to venture into Holbeck anymore!
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