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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 14, 2024 21:35:12 GMT 1
The franchising documents including the maps completely ignore cross boundary services, even for services that are firmly first and foremost West Yorkshire services, with just some vague statement that they will be dealt with separately with service permits
Therefore it is fair to say there is still much to firm up when it comes to cross boundary services
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Post by stephen01 on Mar 14, 2024 22:40:07 GMT 1
For those asking about South Pennine's routes that cross boundries e.g 357 these routes wont be affect as Community Transport routes are exempt from franchising. I’m not sure that is correct. They are local bus services and thus either be franchised or come under a permit operation. They just happen to be operated on a section 22 permit not an o-license. they are some that are tendered yes but the originally routes e.g 357 or 352 as examples are commercial.
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Post by leedsbusman on Mar 15, 2024 0:41:29 GMT 1
I’m not sure that is correct. They are local bus services and thus either be franchised or come under a permit operation. They just happen to be operated on a section 22 permit not an o-license. they are some that are tendered yes but the originally routes e.g 357 or 352 as examples are commercial. Indeed and will still be treated like equivalent services of other operators.
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Mar 15, 2024 7:15:05 GMT 1
The silly Mayor and her minions behind this franchising idea should have included a decision on what to do with all cross boundary services right from the start instead of this wishy washy we're still working on that bit nonsense! What a disorganised person and group of people for that matter, sack the lot of em and never employ them again!
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Post by westriding on Mar 15, 2024 9:31:15 GMT 1
Ms Brabin's delight in another photocall opportunity is matched by the comments from the bus spotters on here. Would a better illustration of the scheme be a CGI of a pyramid of £50 notes to represent the £358 million bill to taxpayers? Meanwhile potholes are ignored, streets unswept, and there is a lack of adequate policing - but never mind another council old peoples home can be closed. If this woman wishes to interfere in commercial businesses, the wider community would benefit from pursuing the activities of Yorkshire Water. The words 'public control' are used in an attempt to sell this plan, which in reality will be the extra 70 bureaucrats engaged by the WYCA, to replace the skills and experience of current bus company managers. How will the low pay of front-line staff be addressed? Previous awards of tenders to the lowest bidder with battered old buses soon failed. Franchising in the 1990's of our integrated railway network wasn't exactly a success, was it?
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Post by Burnside on Mar 15, 2024 10:12:28 GMT 1
Putting control of all of West Yorkshire's bus services in the hands of the people responsible for Bradford Interchange.
What could possibly go wrong? 🤣🤣🤣
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Post by sharksmith on Mar 15, 2024 10:53:38 GMT 1
Don't worry, after watching yesterdays meeting they're really confident that franchising will work, even if some of the councillors present obviously also had serious misgivings.
Having said that they were very confident that the East Leeds Flexibus service would work, despite the huge body of evidence, even at that time, which suggested that DRT services almost always fail. I've just been reading the METRO press release from October 2021 with all kinds of wonderful promises about the benefits it would bring. I wonder what will happen at the end of the three year pilot scheme.......oh wait....? Must have been First's fault that it was such a disaster as they were all so confident. 🤣
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Post by rwilkes on Mar 15, 2024 11:25:28 GMT 1
Don't worry, after watching yesterdays meeting they're really confident that franchising will work, even if some of the councillors present obviously also had serious misgivings. Having said that they were very confident that the East Leeds Flexibus service would work, despite the huge body of evidence, even at that time, which suggested that DRT services almost always fail. I've just been reading the METRO press release from October 2021 with all kinds of wonderful promises about the benefits it would bring. I wonder what will happen at the end of the three year pilot scheme.......oh wait....? Must have been First's fault that it was such a disaster as they were all so confident. 🤣 WYCA are also responsible for all the bus stop timetables which is another thing they cannot get right They will argue that the stability of franchising will make bus stop info easier to provide, but their failure to tackle congestion will mean they have to keep changing everything, especially as complaints will go up. In Manchester people are blaming everything on franchising which was an unexpected problem. The politici9ans who think bus services will be great under frnachising are going to get a very unpleasant surprise when they are held to account for all the thing that used to be blamed on the bus companies, moslty road works and congestion which is outside there control
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Post by deerfold on Mar 15, 2024 11:40:35 GMT 1
The silly Mayor and her minions behind this franchising idea should have included a decision on what to do with all cross boundary services right from the start instead of this wishy washy we're still working on that bit nonsense! What a disorganised person and group of people for that matter, sack the lot of em and never employ them again! Why do you have to be abusive? It's possible to disagree with the Mayor politely. If they've only just made the decision on franchising it would seem odd to know everything about how it will work - otherwise I'm sure you'd have been criticising them for having people working on something that might not even happen. Sack everyone at an organisation because you disagree with the policy and their priorities are different from yours? That's ridiculous.
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Mar 15, 2024 13:03:30 GMT 1
I think we are perhaps overthinking the amount of thought that needs to be put into cross-boundary services? TfGM didn't put much thought into it, and they haven't had any issues. Issuing a permit is probably easier than we think!
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Post by sharksmith on Mar 15, 2024 13:29:37 GMT 1
I think we are perhaps overthinking the amount of thought that needs to be put into cross-boundary services? TfGM didn't put much thought into it, and they haven't had any issues. Issuing a permit is probably easier than we think! That's one thing at least we agree on, I thought they spent way too much time raising questions on cross boundry services when they will clearly work themselves out with minimal difficulty. I'd be more worried about all of the woolly answers given about small operators, they never really answered what will happen if one or more major operators just decide to bid for all of the small franchises. Other than to say 'that's not a problem because we'll buy all your newish buses from you', I don't think there was a lot of reassurance given.
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Post by stevieinselby on Mar 15, 2024 13:38:01 GMT 1
I think we are perhaps overthinking the amount of thought that needs to be put into cross-boundary services? TfGM didn't put much thought into it, and they haven't had any issues. Issuing a permit is probably easier than we think! For routes that are primarily Outside like The36 and Coastliner, it's going to be very straightforward to issue a permit. Any travel within WY is fairly incidental to their operations. The complication comes from routes that have a significant proportion of the traffic being within WY. If the franchised network covers off that traffic with routes that are entirely within WY then that might have a detrimental effect on passenger numbers on those longer routes. Or alternatively, if those Outside routes are left to cater for large numbers of journeys within WY then are those residents getting an appropriate level of service for their council tax? I'm thinking there of routes like the Transdev 7. WY could ignore it completely as it goes into NY, and let Transdev run it on a permit – but then the residents of the WY settlements of Boston Spa, Clifford, Bramham and Thorner don't have a WY bus service, so there's a potential democratic deficit. Or alternatively, WY could franchise the route between Leeds and Wetherby, but then what happens to the section of route between Wetherby and Harrogate? These certainly aren't insurmountable issues, and I'm not necessarily expecting them to have the answer straight away, but it would be reassuring to know that they are considering this aspect of it seriously.
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Post by leedsbusman on Mar 15, 2024 19:18:38 GMT 1
WY could ignore it completely as it goes into NY, and let Transdev run it on a permit – but then the residents of the WY settlements of Boston Spa, Clifford, Bramham and Thorner don't have a WY bus service, so there's a potential democratic deficit. . I’m not sure that’s entirely accurate as operating under a service permit will have conditions attached that mirror the franchised services. The difference between a Bee Network bus and a permit bus in GM is largely cosmetic.
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Post by shelf81 on Mar 15, 2024 21:07:14 GMT 1
I think we are perhaps overthinking the amount of thought that needs to be put into cross-boundary services? TfGM didn't put much thought into it, and they haven't had any issues. Issuing a permit is probably easier than we think! I'm thinking there of routes like the Transdev 7. WY could ignore it completely as it goes into NY, and let Transdev run it on a permit – but then the residents of the WY settlements of Boston Spa, Clifford, Bramham and Thorner don't have a WY bus service, so there's a potential democratic deficit. Or alternatively, WY could franchise the route between Leeds and Wetherby, but then what happens to the section of route between Wetherby and Harrogate? Although the Transdev 7 is their main service, Boston Spa,Clifford & Bramham would have a 'WY' bus service in the 174 from Wakefield. When the Leeds - Wetherby section was operated as part of the 760 from Keighley, didn't the Harrogate section operate as it's own service? So it could possibly go back to that, although as Connexions also operate over the corridor with their X70 it could be that a permit would only be allowed for the hours they don't run as I'm assuming WYCA wouldn't want any competition in 'their' area - Of course it could go the other way as well & they allow a Transdev permit but not the X70 apart from the tendered journies via Follifoot.
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jc
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Post by jc on Mar 15, 2024 21:15:00 GMT 1
Putting control of all of West Yorkshire's bus services in the hands of the people responsible for Bradford Interchange. What could possibly go wrong? 🤣🤣🤣 Seems like a political straitjacket to me. It's a lot easier to make decisions that impact customers' bottom line than your own organisation. If the town planners at WYCA are having to consult with franchising from the outset, maybe ambition will be reigned in and outcomes more pragmatic. Here's hoping anyway.
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Mar 15, 2024 21:46:06 GMT 1
Putting control of all of West Yorkshire's bus services in the hands of the people responsible for Bradford Interchange. What could possibly go wrong? 🤣🤣🤣 No other authority even holds a candle to our bus stations. Every major town and city has a fully sheltered policed bus station with the medium sized towns slowly gaining fully sheltered bus stations of their own. Bradford may be an hiccup but effort put into providing improved waiting conditions can't go unnoticed. Expect that effort to further amplify as they gain control of the network.
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Post by deerfold on Mar 15, 2024 22:20:53 GMT 1
Putting control of all of West Yorkshire's bus services in the hands of the people responsible for Bradford Interchange. What could possibly go wrong? 🤣🤣🤣 No other authority even holds a candle to our bus stations. Every major town and city has a fully sheltered policed bus station with the medium sized towns slowly gaining fully sheltered bus stations of their own. Bradford may be an hiccup but effort put into providing improved waiting conditions can't go unnoticed. Expect that effort to further amplify as they gain control of the network. Halifax was supposed to be fully open last summer but seems to just have had tarmac and flags laid and relaid for the last 8 months. Leeds has a leaking roof. Keighley has a leaking roof and regularly has an entrance out of use due to broken doors.
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Mar 15, 2024 22:32:36 GMT 1
No other authority even holds a candle to our bus stations. Every major town and city has a fully sheltered policed bus station with the medium sized towns slowly gaining fully sheltered bus stations of their own. Bradford may be an hiccup but effort put into providing improved waiting conditions can't go unnoticed. Expect that effort to further amplify as they gain control of the network. Halifax was supposed to be fully open last summer but seems to just have had tarmac and flags laid and relaid for the last 8 months. Leeds has a leaking roof. Keighley has a leaking roof and regularly has an entrance out of use due to broken doors. It could just be me but the bus station being behind schedule seems more to do with the construction company rather than the authority? I mean construction is incredibly hard to predict with the exact same company behind that seems to be ahead of schedule with their bus station in Stockport I know leaks aren't ideal but it is a lot better than the alternative.
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Post by deerfold on Mar 15, 2024 22:36:34 GMT 1
Halifax was supposed to be fully open last summer but seems to just have had tarmac and flags laid and relaid for the last 8 months. Leeds has a leaking roof. Keighley has a leaking roof and regularly has an entrance out of use due to broken doors. It could just be me but the bus station being behind schedule seems more to do with the construction company rather than the authority? I mean construction is incredibly hard to predict with the exact same company behind that seems to be ahead of schedule with their bus station in Stockport I know leaks aren't ideal but it is a lot better than the alternative. Isn't the alternative no leaks?
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Mar 15, 2024 22:45:47 GMT 1
It could just be me but the bus station being behind schedule seems more to do with the construction company rather than the authority? I mean construction is incredibly hard to predict with the exact same company behind that seems to be ahead of schedule with their bus station in Stockport I know leaks aren't ideal but it is a lot better than the alternative. Isn't the alternative no leaks? Refering to other authorities. A lot of major ones have little to no bus stations in their major towns or cities. I'll take leaks in a few bus stations instead of outside bus stops
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Post by sharksmith on Mar 15, 2024 23:20:43 GMT 1
I've been to almost everywhere in England & Wales over the last fifteen years or so and I'm struggling to work out where you mean?
All of South Yorkshires major town & cities do. Manchester has, Merseyside has with the exception of Southport. Tyneside has plenty. West Midlands also does with exception of Birmingham.
If the same construction company is ahead of schedule at Stockport and behind at Halifax on a much much smaller scale bus station could the answer be that West Yorkshire's scrutiny of the project is more lax than Greater Manchesters?
Really starting to think that you work for the combined authority with your rose tinted view of them.
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Post by rwilkes on Mar 15, 2024 23:48:18 GMT 1
Leicester and Nottingham have nice bus stations and very popular bus services. Lancashire bus stations are moslty good. Ours are bleak.
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Post by Father Dougal McGuire on Mar 16, 2024 2:43:08 GMT 1
Sooner Halifax opens the better. Hate having nowhere to go for a wiss after driving over an hour with another hour to go until the next toilet opportunity. Of course I could go into a cafe or take the bus to another depot which I have done but it's not a realistic thing to do. Even more annoyingly is if I was to take the bus to the bus station - nowhere to park it, they haven't even got enough stands for the buses that already use it to park up on let alone an unscheduled bus turning up for a comfort break.
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Mar 16, 2024 10:01:59 GMT 1
I'm really confused at people complaining about Metro/ WYCA. They do have their faults. Yes, Leeds Bus Station has a few leaks, and Halifax is behind schedule; but go stand in Liverpool One bus station on a cold and rainy winters day and tell me what you think... Believe me it's not pleasant. Go stand in Runcorn bus station at anytime of the day. How about Scunthorpe or Rugeley bus stations?
Go look at bus stops in Lancashire or any other one of the countless counties that often barely have a stop, let alone a timetable with useful information on it!
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Mar 16, 2024 10:47:13 GMT 1
You are aware it is a very long process? This has been in the works for years (Jan 2020) authorities can't just decide to wake up one day and make the buses public. They have to produce a plan, consult the public, and deal with tons of legals. and if the next mayor doesn't want franchising? The other candidates for West Yorkshire Mayor could include in their manifesto to scrap franchising plans. Then if elected these plans would be halted.
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