Cross city buses a rare thing

[daveshipley1111]

Expect to see many cross city bus routes particularly in Leeds to fade away in the same fashion the 51/52 has, being split. .

19 is next.

In my opinion it degrades the structure of a bus network and lessens travel opportunities but you can see why with the current congestion in Leeds they are doing it. No consultation with passengers tho.

[kommie123]

Whats happening to the 19??

[WYBS]

Oct 15, 2023 19:57:37 GMT 1 daveshipley1111 said:

Expect to see many cross city bus routes particularly in Leeds to fade away in the same fashion the 51/52 has, being split. .

19 is next.

In my opinion it degrades the structure of a bus network and lessens travel opportunities but you can see why with the current congestion in Leeds they are doing it. No consultation with passengers tho.

Huh? Is First's network planning based on your 'opinion'? Eh?

Is there any evidence to suggest many more routes are being split in the near future?

[mattb7tl]

Some changes need to be forced. They need to start undoing this crosstown/city silliness.
The 370s are decently reliable on one side, and a nightmare on the other. Is that fair to the side with bus priority? Nope!
Such major delays for a slight increase in convenience, not sure who thought they were a good idea.

Also where's the source for the changes to the 19?

[stevieinselby]

Oct 15, 2023 19:57:37 GMT 1 daveshipley1111 said:

Expect to see many cross city bus routes particularly in Leeds to fade away in the same fashion the 51/52 has, being split. .

19 is next.

In my opinion it degrades the structure of a bus network and lessens travel opportunities but you can see why with the current congestion in Leeds they are doing it. No consultation with passengers tho.

There are pros and cons to cross-city services in a city the size of Leeds.
✅ Allows services to efficiently serve a range of stops right across the city centre with less duplication and double-running
✅ A small number of passengers will benefit from an increased range of destinations
❌ Higher risk of delays in one area of the city propagating across the network
❌ It can be harder to match supply to demand when linking routes on opposite sides of the city

[mattb7tl]

Oct 15, 2023 21:07:15 GMT 1 stevieinselby said:

Oct 15, 2023 19:57:37 GMT 1 daveshipley1111 said:

Expect to see many cross city bus routes particularly in Leeds to fade away in the same fashion the 51/52 has, being split. .

19 is next.

In my opinion it degrades the structure of a bus network and lessens travel opportunities but you can see why with the current congestion in Leeds they are doing it. No consultation with passengers tho.

There are pros and cons to cross-city services in a city the size of Leeds.
✅ Allows services to efficiently serve a range of stops right across the city centre with less duplication and double-running
✅ A small number of passengers will benefit from an increased range of destinations
❌ Higher risk of delays in one area of the city propagating across the network
❌ It can be harder to match supply to demand when linking routes on opposite sides of the city

Anywhere left in WY that has two sides reliable enough for the benefit of a cross city route to outweigh the burden?

[westyorkshirebus]

Only a small number will travel cross city (although higher numbers will travel to key locations such as St James’ or the University)

The more important feature of cross city routes, as mentioned above, is the wider number of stops in the city that are served, also you don’t need space in the city to provide layover standS

[rwilkes]

These cross city services would thrive if councils supported bus priority and traffic demand management. Bus services cannot work in current conditions and can only decline. Without buses, things will get even worse for all road users. Oxford, Nottingham, Reading and Brighton show how buses can be the backbone of transport and all towns and cities should be following their lead.

[Bradford Traveller]

Bradford has seen the number of cross-city services reduced slightly over the years (for example) 607 & 608, 622 & 626 turning round at Bradford due to reliability issues, with other links altered (for example) 686 & 687 now run through to Fagley (a fairly short route)

Some routes have inter-working but are not advertised as through routes, such as 630 & 633, and in Keighley: 67 & 62 (Sunday daytime plus some weekday journeys) also 62 & 64 & 72 (daytime on weekdays)

[joseph]

Personally I'd split service 1 and 1B in Leeds as follows. Service 1B would run from West Park via Beckett Park to Asda House in Leeds turning back on itself at the junction just before Bridgewater Place starting back again to West Park at the Bridgewater Place stop. Service 1 would just do it's usual short workings route but extend slightly up to the LGI Brotherton Wing, stopping there then turn up onto Woodhouse Lane and terminate outside the Merrion Centre, starting from there back to Beeston straight away. An extended period of waiting time at Beeston Terminus would be built in to mitigate for any delays. The only two reasons why service 1 was re-instated to replace the 10 was because snobby parents demanded a bus to Lawnswood school and a few shoppers demanded a bus to Morrisons at the Merrion Centre. My suggestion allows those for Headingley and Lawnswood to change onto other buses at a number of stops along the way. It also has the sub benefit of a more direct bus to the LGI instead of the 5.

[twy7]

Arriva already have split all the route crossing wakefield
102
104
105
110
443/444

[steviewevie]

Oct 16, 2023 7:37:33 GMT 1 twy7 said:

Arriva already have split all the route crossing wakefield
102
104
105
110
443/444

Yes there are no cross Wakefield services now. Pretty poor when you consider that there used to be such routes as Dewsbury to Pontefract, Leeds to Barnsley, Leeds to Hemsworth etc. I understand why, though I'm not convinced, but it does cut down on convenience and usually means two buses to reach some destinations including Pinderfields Hospital. Less through routes = more fares?

[stevieinselby]

Oct 16, 2023 8:49:32 GMT 1 steviewevie said:

Yes there are no cross Wakefield services now. Pretty poor when you consider that there used to be such routes as Dewsbury to Pontefract, Leeds to Barnsley, Leeds to Hemsworth etc. I understand why, though I'm not convinced, but it does cut down on convenience and usually means two buses to reach some destinations including Pinderfields Hospital. Less through routes = more fares?

I doubt that the very small increase in fares from people now having to pay twice would be worth the effort of changing established service patterns and disrupting people's journeys (with the likely loss of some passengers). More likely that the cross-city journeys were becoming unreliable, or it was becoming difficult to resource the route efficiently and match supply and demand – for that to work effectively, you need to have routes on each side of the city that merit the same frequency and size of bus as each other at the same time of day, every day, and it becomes more complicated if you want to tweak the timetable on one arm of the route because it has knock-on implications across a wider part of the network.

[kommie123]

So..... Is the 19 changing or was that a bus nerds wet dream?

[576 Gemini 2]

First Halifax"s Only cross town routes is the 541 & 542 Siddal-Norton Tower

[SCH117X]

Oct 15, 2023 22:44:17 GMT 1 rwilkes said:

These cross city services would thrive if councils supported bus priority and traffic demand management. Bus services cannot work in current conditions and can only decline. Without buses, things will get even worse for all road users. Oxford, Nottingham, Reading and Brighton show how buses can be the backbone of transport and all towns and cities should be following their lead.

Nottingham axed all the cross city services but many terminate as a loop around the city centre so retaining the wider central catchment of a cross city service.

[Deleted]

Oct 16, 2023 17:11:59 GMT 1 kommie123 said:

So..... Is the 19 changing or was that a bus nerds wet dream?

There's no registration yet been put into VOSA to split the route & I Don't think First have confirmed anything - guessing it might be a 'driver told me this was going to happen' rumour.

[daveshipley1111]

Oct 16, 2023 17:11:59 GMT 1 kommie123 said:

So..... Is the 19 changing or was that a bus nerds wet dream?

Let’s revisit this comment shortly..

[kommie123]

Oooooooooooooo

[jst]

The 19 makes sense to split unfortunately. Reliablity, especially in the peaks, is dreadful and as soon as there is an event at Headingley there is effectively absolutely no service East of Leeds due to the traffic. With Arriva running 8 buses East of Leeds I wouldn't be surprised to see a frequency reduction too.

[yorkslad]

Oct 16, 2023 17:11:59 GMT 1 kommie123 said:

So..... Is the 19 changing or was that a bus nerds wet dream?

TBF, there's always someone that knows something, and can't wait to tell people that they know something, without coughing up what it is they actually know...

Equally, many of the cross-Leeds routes are 'wrong', in that they are two long routes stitched together (such as the 16/16A and 19/19A). Service 1 works because it's a longer route at one end (especially when it ran through to Holt Park, which I wish it still did for those of us heading that way from the rail station side of town) and shorter at the other.

The 51/52 split would have worked better if the soutbound services could have turned near Meadow Lane (giving access from the north to the colleges) and the northbound services nearer the universities (Albion Street, Merrion Street and return would have done). In theory, the Council's road changes should make it easier to do this. In practice...

[joseph]

Service 1/1B does not work, I can tell you that as I use it regularly. The short bit, which is 2.5 miles long from the rail station to Beeston terminus, can often be bogged down through traffic or passenger loadings, especially in peak times. There are often peak time gaps of half an hour with 1 and 1Bs often seen together towards Beeston, hence why you often see massive queues on Park Row. Having the 65 and 75 doesn't help at all as they get stuck in all the traffic around Holbeck, the 65 often misses too.

[peteleeds]

Problem with cross city routes is delays from one side of route affecting other so i can understand some wanting to split them. However they can be really useful. University and hospital been prime examples.

Would help if for example all the routes to st james went from same stops in city centre would would make connections easier.

[kendall17]

Oct 23, 2023 20:03:55 GMT 1 yorkslad said:

Oct 16, 2023 17:11:59 GMT 1 kommie123 said:

So..... Is the 19 changing or was that a bus nerds wet dream?

The 51/52 split would have worked better if the soutbound services could have turned near Meadow Lane (giving access from the north to the colleges) and the northbound services nearer the universities (Albion Street, Merrion Street and return would have done). In theory, the Council's road changes should make it easier to do this. In practice...

Whilst I agree this would be easier, you'd add an extra bus or two onto each route and ultimately 3/4 extra drivers each day. Sadly not the most cost effective in this day in ave.

[pricel]

Oct 16, 2023 17:14:04 GMT 1 576 Gemini 2 said:

First Halifax"s Only cross town routes is the 541 & 542 Siddal-Norton Tower

because Halifax is very different to the other main towns in West Yorkshire as they have settlements that ring around the whole town or city but Halifax's settlements seem to be situated to the north west, west and south of the town. So I guess it's not really appropriate for any cross town routes. Plus every main road in Halifax seems to experience bad traffic whether that would be A58 Northbound or Southbound, A629 North and South, Pellon Lane, and A646 which would be awful for Cross town routes.