mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Oct 10, 2023 13:08:16 GMT 1
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Oct 10, 2023 18:15:44 GMT 1
Just had a good read of the documents. I will post more thoughts later on but what really interests me the most is the zones of transitioning to a franchised network.
Round 1 – Heavy Woollen, Kirklees, Leeds 3
Round 2 – Five Towns, Leeds 1, Wakefield
Round 3 – Bradford, Calderdale, Keighley, Leeds 2
I could be bias but to me it seems the most appropriate. Areas with the poorest levels of service are being brought under franchising before the areas with better, more frequent, and longer running core services.
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Post by SCH117X on Oct 10, 2023 18:20:18 GMT 1
Would help if they could spell - Weatherby
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Oct 10, 2023 18:40:02 GMT 1
Just had a good read of the documents. I will post more thoughts later on but what really interests me the most is the zones of transitioning to a franchised network. Round 1 – Heavy Woollen, Kirklees, Leeds 3 Round 2 – Five Towns, Leeds 1, Wakefield Round 3 – Bradford, Calderdale, Keighley, Leeds 2 I could be bias but to me it seems the most appropriate. Areas with the poorest levels of service are being brought under franchising before the areas with better, more frequent, and longer running core services. Think it would have been better if Bradford, Calderdale and Leeds 2 came first. |
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Post by stevieinselby on Oct 10, 2023 19:01:31 GMT 1
The question about cross-border services seems to be pretty murky.
For example, the list of services to be franchised includes Selby to Leeds as a whole route (which extends well outside West Yorkshire), but doesn't appear to include existing routes connecting West Yorkshire to places like Harrogate or Skipton although sections of some of these routes are covered (eg Keighley to Airedale Hospital, Leeds to Moortown) but others seem to be completely missing.
So where does a Keighley to Skipton service come in? Would the operator who won the franchise for Keighley to Airedale Hospital apply for a permit to extend a franchised route? Or would an operator (who may or may not be the one operating Keighley to Airedale) apply for a permit to run Skipton to Keighley, thereby duplicating services over a section of the route? Or would they only get permission to run as far as the first interchange point, meaning that they could only run Skipton to Airedale?
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Oct 10, 2023 19:01:33 GMT 1
Just had a good read of the documents. I will post more thoughts later on but what really interests me the most is the zones of transitioning to a franchised network. Round 1 – Heavy Woollen, Kirklees, Leeds 3 Round 2 – Five Towns, Leeds 1, Wakefield Round 3 – Bradford, Calderdale, Keighley, Leeds 2 I could be bias but to me it seems the most appropriate. Areas with the poorest levels of service are being brought under franchising before the areas with better, more frequent, and longer running core services. Think it would have been better if Bradford, Calderdale and Leeds 2 came first. I presume you’ve read the 23 page document that explains why they are proposing the order they are |
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Oct 10, 2023 19:08:52 GMT 1
Think it would have been better if Bradford, Calderdale and Leeds 2 came first. I presume you’ve read the 23 page document that explains why they are proposing the order they are Unsure as to which one you're reading since mine spans on for 152 pages? |
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Oct 10, 2023 19:09:08 GMT 1
Let's hope that by franchising they fix the basic issue of bus timetable information. Bustimes.org still has different times for services 1 and 1B compared to what the actual times are, this has been the case for many weeks now. Additionally WYCA would be better off fixing the massive issue of traffic, I was on the 08.00 service 1 listed below (wrongly listed by bus times as an 07.58 1B) and it did indeed take almost an hour to reach Leeds from Beeston, would have been a lot later had the driver not turned at Asda as you'll see on the map. bustimes.org/services/1b-leeds-beckett-park-headingley-campus/vehicles#journeys/488080020 |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Oct 10, 2023 19:19:22 GMT 1
I presume you’ve read the 23 page document that explains why they are proposing the order they are Unsure as to which one you're reading since mine spans on for 152 pages? Appendix 3.1 “the lotting strategy” It also includes maps of what services fall into each lot and you can clearly see which depots fall into each lot All of ‘Flyer’ including the A1 falls into Bradford for example |
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Oct 10, 2023 19:24:56 GMT 1
Unsure as to which one you're reading since mine spans on for 152 pages? Appendix 3.1 “the lotting strategy” It also includes maps of what services fall into each lot and you can clearly see which depots fall into each lot All of ‘Flyer’ including the A1 falls into Bradford for example Thank you It seems alot of important information is scattered among multiple PDFs. There's several documents that go 50 pages and above. For example, the uplifts in frequency that were left out the main document.  |
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Post by SCH117X on Oct 10, 2023 19:52:23 GMT 1
The question about cross-border services seems to be pretty murky. For example, the list of services to be franchised includes Selby to Leeds as a whole route (which extends well outside West Yorkshire), but doesn't appear to include existing routes connecting West Yorkshire to places like Harrogate or Skipton although sections of some of these routes are covered (eg Keighley to Airedale Hospital, Leeds to Moortown) but others seem to be completely missing. So where does a Keighley to Skipton service come in? Would the operator who won the franchise for Keighley to Airedale Hospital apply for a permit to extend a franchised route? Or would an operator (who may or may not be the one operating Keighley to Airedale) apply for a permit to run Skipton to Keighley, thereby duplicating services over a section of the route? Or would they only get permission to run as far as the first interchange point, meaning that they could only run Skipton to Airedale? Page 45: A service permit scheme would be required on the introduction of the Proposed Franchising Scheme to allow services which will not be (or are not yet) franchised services to continue to operate. Service permits would be required for: • cross–boundary services – services that do not originate from West Yorkshire That therefore covers the Harrogate and Coastliner services as they originate in North Yorkshire and surely should include those from Selby. Services to Skipton which originate from Keighley are not seemingly so covered. Maybe it should be services that do not originate from, or terminate in, West Yorkshire |
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Post by deerfold on Oct 10, 2023 20:45:54 GMT 1
The question about cross-border services seems to be pretty murky. For example, the list of services to be franchised includes Selby to Leeds as a whole route (which extends well outside West Yorkshire), but doesn't appear to include existing routes connecting West Yorkshire to places like Harrogate or Skipton although sections of some of these routes are covered (eg Keighley to Airedale Hospital, Leeds to Moortown) but others seem to be completely missing. So where does a Keighley to Skipton service come in? Would the operator who won the franchise for Keighley to Airedale Hospital apply for a permit to extend a franchised route? Or would an operator (who may or may not be the one operating Keighley to Airedale) apply for a permit to run Skipton to Keighley, thereby duplicating services over a section of the route? Or would they only get permission to run as far as the first interchange point, meaning that they could only run Skipton to Airedale? Lets hope they can run through. It was annoying enough when North Yorkshire decided they only wanted to subsidise the 78A as far as the hospital - it used to be a lovely route to catch as an alternative when not overly busy. Not so much fun to catch two buses run by different companies, paying twice, with one being an NYCC minibus. |
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Post by stevieinselby on Oct 10, 2023 21:21:37 GMT 1
Page 45: A service permit scheme would be required on the introduction of the Proposed Franchising Scheme to allow services which will not be (or are not yet) franchised services to continue to operate. Service permits would be required for: • cross–boundary services – services that do not originate from West Yorkshire That therefore covers the Harrogate and Coastliner services as they originate in North Yorkshire and surely should include those from Selby. Services to Skipton which originate from Keighley are not seemingly so covered. Maybe it should be services that do not originate from, or terminate in, West Yorkshire When does a service originate in North Yorkshire and extend into West Yorkshire, and when does a service originate in West Yorkshire and extend into North Yorkshire? 🤔 Coastliner is a clear example of a route that is only marginally in West Yorkshire and so would be considered an out-of-area service, and The 36 probably likewise. Leeds to Selby is borderline, about half the route is in each, but more than half the route miles are in West Yorkshire because 3 out of 4 journeys terminate at Garforth. Harrogate to Leeds via Wetherby is primarily in West Yorkshire so I would expect to see it included here. There are some places where an out-of-area service is incidental to the local network – the Seacroft to Leeds corridor wouldn't blink if Coastliner was withdrawn, for example – but there are other places where the out-of-area service is the local network – eg, Thorner, Bramham, Clifford and Boston Spa are only served by the Transdev 7 from Harrogate. If the out-of-area service isn't part of the franchised network, that means those West Yorkshire communities may be missing out on the benefits of bus reform and have their services potentially at risk if the commercial situation changes. This isn't an argument against franchising, but I would like to see a clearer rationale for how cross-border services are deemed to be included or excluded from the network, and what the expectation is for cross-border services that are excluded. |
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Post by leedsbusman on Oct 10, 2023 21:39:10 GMT 1
Page 45: A service permit scheme would be required on the introduction of the Proposed Franchising Scheme to allow services which will not be (or are not yet) franchised services to continue to operate. Service permits would be required for: • cross–boundary services – services that do not originate from West Yorkshire That therefore covers the Harrogate and Coastliner services as they originate in North Yorkshire and surely should include those from Selby. Services to Skipton which originate from Keighley are not seemingly so covered. Maybe it should be services that do not originate from, or terminate in, West Yorkshire When does a service originate in North Yorkshire and extend into West Yorkshire, and when does a service originate in West Yorkshire and extend into North Yorkshire? 🤔 Coastliner is a clear example of a route that is only marginally in West Yorkshire and so would be considered an out-of-area service, and The 36 probably likewise. Leeds to Selby is borderline, about half the route is in each, but more than half the route miles are in West Yorkshire because 3 out of 4 journeys terminate at Garforth. Harrogate to Leeds via Wetherby is primarily in West Yorkshire so I would expect to see it included here. There are some places where an out-of-area service is incidental to the local network – the Seacroft to Leeds corridor wouldn't blink if Coastliner was withdrawn, for example – but there are other places where the out-of-area service is the local network – eg, Thorner, Bramham, Clifford and Boston Spa are only served by the Transdev 7 from Harrogate. If the out-of-area service isn't part of the franchised network, that means those West Yorkshire communities may be missing out on the benefits of bus reform and have their services potentially at risk if the commercial situation changes. This isn't an argument against franchising, but I would like to see a clearer rationale for how cross-border services are deemed to be included or excluded from the network, and what the expectation is for cross-border services that are excluded. In GM it was where the route ran from that determined it. |
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Post by jonny182 on Oct 11, 2023 5:25:48 GMT 1
Let's hope that by franchising they fix the basic issue of bus timetable information. Bustimes.org still has different times for services 1 and 1B compared to what the actual times are, this has been the case for many weeks now. Additionally WYCA would be better off fixing the massive issue of traffic, I was on the 08.00 service 1 listed below (wrongly listed by bus times as an 07.58 1B) and it did indeed take almost an hour to reach Leeds from Beeston, would have been a lot later had the driver not turned at Asda as you'll see on the map. bustimes.org/services/1b-leeds-beckett-park-headingley-campus/vehicles#journeys/488080020The traffic standstill yesterday was caused by a broken down bus on Sovereign Street which the recovery required a police presence and a full road closure. |
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Oct 11, 2023 6:32:49 GMT 1
Let's hope that by franchising they fix the basic issue of bus timetable information. Bustimes.org still has different times for services 1 and 1B compared to what the actual times are, this has been the case for many weeks now. Additionally WYCA would be better off fixing the massive issue of traffic, I was on the 08.00 service 1 listed below (wrongly listed by bus times as an 07.58 1B) and it did indeed take almost an hour to reach Leeds from Beeston, would have been a lot later had the driver not turned at Asda as you'll see on the map. bustimes.org/services/1b-leeds-beckett-park-headingley-campus/vehicles#journeys/488080020The traffic standstill yesterday was caused by a broken down bus on Sovereign Street which the recovery required a police presence and a full road closure. Highlights my point though, 1 broken down vehicle stops a large part of the city. All these central area lane reductions, cycle lanes, speed humps etc all mean traffic is restricted to certain roads causing regular traffic problems, and made 100% worse when something goes wrong on any of the central Leeds roads. All West Yorkshire's councils and WYCA (made up of councillors from all 5 West Yorks councils) need to get real, people won't catch a bus no matter how frequent it is if it means they have a never ending morning commute. Try dropping off kids at 2 separate schools then making your way to work by bus, impossible! Try a 9 mile commute by bus, impossible without an endurance test each morning and evening! People in charge of West Yorkshire need to look at how it's laid out, how much capacity there is in local schools, are work places located closer to where people live etc, that's where the money is better spent. To highlight my point about schools, in the Beeston area you have a school bus to Leeds Grammer School, Poppletons run a bus to Pontefract New College, there is a bus to Abbey Grange, the 51/2 on Elland Road and 65 on Town Street/Old Lane pick up a load for Morley schools, there is a school bus to Woodkirk, the service 1 was partly reinstated as a through bus because of pressure from parents in Beeston who's kids attend Lawnswood and so on. If they built just one more quality high school in the Beeston area that would solve that issue. |
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Post by jonny182 on Oct 11, 2023 6:51:16 GMT 1
The traffic standstill yesterday was caused by a broken down bus on Sovereign Street which the recovery required a police presence and a full road closure. Highlights my point though, 1 broken down vehicle stops a large part of the city. All these central area lane reductions, cycle lanes, speed humps etc all mean traffic is restricted to certain roads causing regular traffic problems, and made 100% worse when something goes wrong on any of the central Leeds roads. All West Yorkshire's councils and WYCA (made up of councillors from all 5 West Yorks councils) need to get real, people won't catch a bus no matter how frequent it is if it means they have a never ending morning commute. Try dropping off kids at 2 separate schools then making your way to work by bus, impossible! Try a 9 mile commute by bus, impossible without an endurance test each morning and evening! People in charge of West Yorkshire need to look at how it's laid out, how much capacity there is in local schools, are work places located closer to where people live etc, that's where the money is better spent. To highlight my point about schools, in the Beeston area you have a school bus to Leeds Grammer School, Poppletons run a bus to Pontefract New College, there is a bus to Abbey Grange, the 51/2 on Elland Road and 65 on Town Street/Old Lane pick up a load for Morley schools, there is a school bus to Woodkirk, the service 1 was partly reinstated as a through bus because of pressure from parents in Beeston who's kids attend Lawnswood and so on. If they built just one more quality high school in the Beeston area that would solve that issue. I agree with you there Joseph. The roads are far too narrow, too many restrictions which is counterproductive as it has a massive negative impact on bus punctuality when something really small like one broken down vehicle causes! It blocks half of Leeds! Together with the bus reform, some serious thinking on how road layouts are made better, more alternative routes and thinking of where do car drivers get displaced to is needed. Just simply banning cars without alternatives does not work. |
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Oct 11, 2023 8:30:40 GMT 1
When does a service originate in North Yorkshire and extend into West Yorkshire, and when does a service originate in West Yorkshire and extend into North Yorkshire? 🤔 Coastliner is a clear example of a route that is only marginally in West Yorkshire and so would be considered an out-of-area service, and The 36 probably likewise. Leeds to Selby is borderline, about half the route is in each, but more than half the route miles are in West Yorkshire because 3 out of 4 journeys terminate at Garforth. Harrogate to Leeds via Wetherby is primarily in West Yorkshire so I would expect to see it included here. There are some places where an out-of-area service is incidental to the local network – the Seacroft to Leeds corridor wouldn't blink if Coastliner was withdrawn, for example – but there are other places where the out-of-area service is the local network – eg, Thorner, Bramham, Clifford and Boston Spa are only served by the Transdev 7 from Harrogate. If the out-of-area service isn't part of the franchised network, that means those West Yorkshire communities may be missing out on the benefits of bus reform and have their services potentially at risk if the commercial situation changes. This isn't an argument against franchising, but I would like to see a clearer rationale for how cross-border services are deemed to be included or excluded from the network, and what the expectation is for cross-border services that are excluded. In GM it was where the route ran from that determined it. Partly but just because a route was run from a depot outside Greater Manchester doesn't mean it wouldn't be brought into a franchised operation as everything run into GM is run under a permit from TfGM so they can decide whether to grant a permit or not. The basic consideration was proportion of the route outside the franchised area (if it was less than 50% inside GM then it would be likely to be outwith the franchise scheme as a starting point) with due consideration to relative import to the minimum service level for GM residents (so if there was a largely parallel franchised route existing then a cross-boundary route would be less likely to be brought in but if it is the only route on an important section then it may anyway) though if the cross-boundary service is already run from a GM depot being taken into a franchise it probably would be included in the franchise even if it would otherwise not meet these criteria (as a simpler solution than GM trying to find an operator outside to take it on so they don't have to deal with it). With TfGM (& largely but not exactly London) how cross boundary services are dealt is simple on paper (how smooth it works in practice remains to be seen). The section outside the TfGM are is registered with the Traffic Commissioners as normal & the section inside the TfGM area is done so with TfGM under a permit scheme. In practice both parties receive the full timetable as part of the submission, to avoid the complication of splitting services at the border, but if the change is only in the TfGM area (such as the route in a town centre for instance) then you wouldn't pay the Licensing Office for making the change but you send them a copy so their records are up to date but you only need approval from TfGM (I'm not sure if TfGM is charging for changing their registrations as our operating area is only affected by Tranches 3 so we haven't had a detailed briefing of the permit system yet). Presumably the permit system has mechanisms to request/require participation in specific improvements etc if the authority wish and there is of course nothing to stop a franchising authority to take on a cross boundary service if the operator decides it is not commercially viable to maintain a service to the required level to gain a permit (for many years there have been a number of TfL services extending well into the neighbouring counties if the route was deemed to provide a significant service link within the authority boundary & the previous commercial operator no longer felt it was viable to operate & meet TfL requirements to obtain their permits) if they feel it necessary. |
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Post by westriding on Oct 11, 2023 15:08:08 GMT 1
So, Ms Brabin has found a magic money tree to fund her vendetta against bus companies. Meanwhile, West Yorkshire suffers from a lack of policing, potholes and unswept streets. Although one issue is the inability of DB to find a buyer for run-down Arriva, the major problem of reliability is the recruitment and retention of drivers. Will new contracts specify an all-operator higher than current wage-rate, or will work be given to the cheapest cowboy? When funds are exhausted will there be a trip to central goverment, Sadik Khan style, to be told to cut routes and frequencies? Maybe a visit to Manchester is needed to see the motley collection of second-hand vehicles to be drafted in from around the country to save face for Andy Burnham, however he has pleased the supplier of school-bus style yellow paint!
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Oct 11, 2023 15:40:46 GMT 1
So, Ms Brabin has found a magic money tree to fund her vendetta against bus companies. Meanwhile, West Yorkshire suffers from a lack of policing, potholes and unswept streets. Although one issue is the inability of DB to find a buyer for run-down Arriva, the major problem of reliability is the recruitment and retention of drivers. Will new contracts specify an all-operator higher than current wage-rate, or will work be given to the cheapest cowboy? When funds are exhausted will there be a trip to central goverment, Sadik Khan style, to be told to cut routes and frequencies? Maybe a visit to Manchester is needed to see the motley collection of second-hand vehicles to be drafted in from around the country to save face for Andy Burnham, however he has pleased the supplier of school-bus style yellow paint! I would hope it is the same money tree we have been using to unsustainability subsidise cars, retail parks, and any other tax wasting car centric infrastructure! |
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Post by deerfold on Oct 11, 2023 16:05:43 GMT 1
So, Ms Brabin has found a magic money tree to fund her vendetta against bus companies. Meanwhile, West Yorkshire suffers from a lack of policing, potholes and unswept streets. Although one issue is the inability of DB to find a buyer for run-down Arriva, the major problem of reliability is the recruitment and retention of drivers. Will new contracts specify an all-operator higher than current wage-rate, or will work be given to the cheapest cowboy? When funds are exhausted will there be a trip to central goverment, Sadik Khan style, to be told to cut routes and frequencies? Maybe a visit to Manchester is needed to see the motley collection of second-hand vehicles to be drafted in from around the country to save face for Andy Burnham, however he has pleased the supplier of school-bus style yellow paint! Why is this a vendetta against bus companies? It's how most places in Europe run buses (except usually using fewer areas so fewer companies can win contracts). I've been to several where that's Arriva, better than they're running them here. I don't think Manchester promised all buses would be new from the start (that would be wasting money) - the West Yorkshire proposals include how the fleet will be replaced. With contacts like this, if done well, any cowboy running routes will lose out significantly by not running or not meeting the specifications of their contract. |
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Post by nate58 on Oct 11, 2023 16:21:19 GMT 1
Not 100% feel free to correct me if i got this wrong.. the frequency changes planned for example the d1 from 30mins to 20mins is this for certain or just an idea?
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Oct 11, 2023 16:25:43 GMT 1
Not 100% feel free to correct me if i got this wrong.. the frequency changes planned for example the d1 from 30mins to 20mins is this for certain or just an idea? Just proposed frequency's, we have years to go until franchising so that list could vastly change A very early on list a year back had a completely different set of service improvements. Previously, the core routes, off the top of my head, were the 372, 328, 229, 503, X63, 324. A couple of those routes are now missing from that list |
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Post by deerfold on Oct 11, 2023 16:27:17 GMT 1
Not 100% feel free to correct me if i got this wrong.. the frequency changes planned for example the d1 from 30mins to 20mins is this for certain or just an idea? It's what they want to do. But it'll all depend on budgets and how much companies charge for everything. Odd that the 503 is shown for frequency increase when that should have increased already by then. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2023 16:56:29 GMT 1
Not 100% feel free to correct me if i got this wrong.. the frequency changes planned for example the d1 from 30mins to 20mins is this for certain or just an idea? It's what they want to do. But it'll all depend on budgets and how much companies charge for everything. Odd that the 503 is shown for frequency increase when that should have increased already by then. I'm guessing the list of frequency increases is slightly out of date, as predates the frequency reductions on 72,X63,324 & the frequency increases on 2/3/A/12/13/13A plus the reduction on 360 later this month alongside missing the 501/503 proposals. I'm guessing there's an error on the list over X84 as it states it's going to be 'uplifted' from Every 30 Mins to Every 30 mins? I'm assuming it should say uplift to 20 Minutes. To just remind the person who said over Manchester bringing in a 'motley collection of second-hand vehicles' maybe needs to take a look at the current fleets in West Yorkshire before franchising's even begun before using that argument - We've got buses new to Bournemouth,York,London,Heathrow,Malta,Manchester,Merseyside and the North East - That's only from the First/Arriva/Transdev. |
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