lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Oct 12, 2023 14:49:02 GMT 1
Another QUANGO with a budget, wasting it. It's pointless. It's just full of dreams.
They want bus priority here, there and everywhere, and then admit the massive decline in bus useage. How much is it going to cost and how much disruption will there be with roadworks to achieve that?
The word "inclusive" must appear a million times. What isn't already inclusive about a bus service?
The document is already out of date. It talks about complicated fare structures. What's complicated about - it's £2 per single journey and a maximum of £4.50 per day? It's not exactly difficult to look at your usuage, and work out whether paying as you go or buying a weekly, monthly, or annual pass is better value.
They say 62% of journeys are carried out by car and only 6% by bus. What business would devote this amount of effort and expense to a niche product or service, when the overwhelming majority of it's customers clearly want something else?
Franchising has been a disaster for the railways. Why would this be any different? It seems like the same demands. Bidding against each other and commitment to investment, just like the trains (new ones, more of them, more frequent services to more destinations). And what happened? The numbers didn't stack up and they handed the franchises back, or they were so poor, the government cancelled them.
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Post by Father Dougal McGuire on Oct 12, 2023 15:49:54 GMT 1
I sincerely hope that they will put a stop to these god awful timetables at random odd minutes, ridiculous frequencies and general mess that operators are making of them, especially not the 2nd company. How any self respecting scheduler can look at their timetables as of late and be happy with it is beyond me.
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Post by deerfold on Oct 12, 2023 16:26:20 GMT 1
I sincerely hope that they will put a stop to these god awful timetables at random odd minutes, ridiculous frequencies and general mess that operators are making of them, especially not the 2nd company. How any self respecting scheduler can look at their timetables as of late and be happy with it is beyond me. I'd expect clockface timetables, as near as can be done. What's the 2nd company?
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Post by chas on Oct 12, 2023 16:52:08 GMT 1
I sincerely hope that they will put a stop to these god awful timetables at random odd minutes, ridiculous frequencies and general mess that operators are making of them, especially not the 2nd company. How any self respecting scheduler can look at their timetables as of late and be happy with it is beyond me. I'd expect clockface timetables, as near as can be done. what's the 2nd company? Well it's not the 1st....or is it?
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Post by Father Dougal McGuire on Oct 12, 2023 17:41:34 GMT 1
I'd expect clockface timetables, as near as can be done. what's the 2nd company? Well it's not the 1st....or is it? Well I've refrained from naming my definitely not employer on here because someone involved in the schedules a few years ago didn't like my comments even though they were true and got upset that I didn't remove them. "All thoughts are my own and do not represent my employer" n all that. Even though they no longer work there I like to do it to wind them up because it's funny. I worked in schedules and the timetables I constructed were clockface, no random odd minutes, gradual transitions between Peak, Off Peak & Evening times, passing timing points where it was designed not to wait there but pass through within the "on-time" window set by the TC, on routes shared between two depots, running boards which started and finished in the respective depot towns were done where they could 90% of the time to reduce dead millage and improve overall efficiency of the schedule.
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Post by westriding on Oct 13, 2023 14:45:04 GMT 1
It's what they want to do. But it'll all depend on budgets and how much companies charge for everything. Odd that the 503 is shown for frequency increase when that should have increased already by then. I'm guessing the list of frequency increases is slightly out of date, as predates the frequency reductions on 72,X63,324 & the frequency increases on 2/3/A/12/13/13A plus the reduction on 360 later this month alongside missing the 501/503 proposals. I'm guessing there's an error on the list over X84 as it states it's going to be 'uplifted' from Every 30 Mins to Every 30 mins? I'm assuming it should say uplift to 20 Minutes. To just remind the person who said over Manchester bringing in a 'motley collection of second-hand vehicles' maybe needs to take a look at the current fleets in West Yorkshire before franchising's even begun before using that argument - We've got buses new to Bournemouth,York,London,Heathrow,Malta,Manchester,Merseyside and the North East - That's only from the First/Arriva/Transdev.
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Post by westriding on Oct 13, 2023 14:50:26 GMT 1
The person who commented about the collection of vehicles in various liveries covered in stickers in Manchester was referring to this week, not about the West Yorkshire scene over several years with the shuffle of buses in their First or Arriva livery.
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Post by martinsfp on Oct 14, 2023 16:35:44 GMT 1
Another QUANGO with a budget, wasting it. It's pointless. It's just full of dreams. They want bus priority here, there and everywhere, and then admit the massive decline in bus useage. How much is it going to cost and how much disruption will there be with roadworks to achieve that? The word "inclusive" must appear a million times. What isn't already inclusive about a bus service? The document is already out of date. It talks about complicated fare structures. What's complicated about - it's £2 per single journey and a maximum of £4.50 per day? It's not exactly difficult to look at your usuage, and work out whether paying as you go or buying a weekly, monthly, or annual pass is better value. They say 62% of journeys are carried out by car and only 6% by bus. What business would devote this amount of effort and expense to a niche product or service, when the overwhelming majority of it's customers clearly want something else? Franchising has been a disaster for the railways. Why would this be any different? It seems like the same demands. Bidding against each other and commitment to investment, just like the trains (new ones, more of them, more frequent services to more destinations). And what happened? The numbers didn't stack up and they handed the franchises back, or they were so poor, the government cancelled them. Manchester newsletter The Mill reported yesterday that The Bee Network is driving an increase in bus passenger numbers. It's still early days but I believe franchising can work- especially if it's seen as an investment in the regional economy rather than something looked at in isolation and run like a commercial operation. If franchising gets more people to more places they want to go, more reliably than before, opening up new economic activity, that's a good thing. That said, The Mill also reported that The Bee Network is currently being propped up by drivers from out of the area who are being housed in Airbnbs and paid more than local drivers. The beginning has been a bit chaotic operationally but so was the beginning of deregulation in '86.
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Oct 14, 2023 18:53:35 GMT 1
They say 62% of journeys are carried out by car and only 6% by bus. What business would devote this amount of effort and expense to a niche product or service, when the overwhelming majority of it's customers clearly want something else? Quite a simple answer. There's no such thing as good car infrastructure. Not a single city town on the planet has reduced or defeated traffic and that won't change with electric cars or even self driving.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2023 20:19:31 GMT 1
They say 62% of journeys are carried out by car and only 6% by bus. What business would devote this amount of effort and expense to a niche product or service, when the overwhelming majority of it's customers clearly want something else? Quite a simple answer. There's no such thing as good car infrastructure. Not a single city town on the planet has reduced or defeated traffic and that won't change with electric cars or even self driving. Good public transport infrastructure & good car infrastructure is the same thing IMO, as getting the majority of people onto public transport means them making more niche journeys or are not able to use public transport for legitimate reasons enjoy quieter roads in their cars. Just need to look at America with their 'one more lane' mantra to see that standard 'car infrastructure' doesn't work apart from possibly the first 3-6 months after opening.
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Post by deerfold on Oct 14, 2023 20:23:43 GMT 1
Not a single city town on the planet has reduced or defeated traffic and that won't change with electric cars or even self driving. Have you ever been to Copenhagen? Oslo's done fairly well, too. But it's not achieved by changing what powers or drives cars.
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Post by steve440 on Oct 23, 2023 9:11:14 GMT 1
Four or five years ago I would have argued vociferously against franchising because I believed that the large private bus groups were doing a reasonable job. We now live in a different world post covid-19. What the region desperately needs is a stable and reliable bus network. A "quality partnership" would still result in operators withdrawing services at will if they were not making enough profit. Franchising would deliver a stable network that regular passengers could rely on and would gradually attract previously lost custom. I am all too aware of the ongoing problem of attracting enough driving staff to the industry, but I believe that is because it is perceived as a dwindling market. In a franchised regime, maybe more young people would be encouraged to make a career out of bus driving just as we used to do. When I became a bus driver in 1987, there was a constant stream of young people queuing up for a job because it was seen as a good money earner. If the network was stable and indeed growing, then people would not be worried about whether their job would last.
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Post by leedsbusman on Oct 23, 2023 12:47:45 GMT 1
Four or five years ago I would have argued vociferously against franchising because I believed that the large private bus groups were doing a reasonable job. We now live in a different world post covid-19. What the region desperately needs is a stable and reliable bus network. A "quality partnership" would still result in operators withdrawing services at will if they were not making enough profit. Franchising would deliver a stable network that regular passengers could rely on and would gradually attract previously lost custom. I am all too aware of the ongoing problem of attracting enough driving staff to the industry, but I believe that is because it is perceived as a dwindling market. In a franchised regime, maybe more young people would be encouraged to make a career out of bus driving just as we used to do. When I became a bus driver in 1987, there was a constant stream of young people queuing up for a job because it was seen as a good money earner. If the network was stable and indeed growing, then people would not be worried about whether their job would last. Out of interest what would stop WYCA withdrawing franchised services at will if the revenue didn’t cover the costs of operating and the money tap ran dry (a real risk looking at what has happened to Birmingham council).
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Post by deerfold on Oct 23, 2023 13:12:40 GMT 1
Four or five years ago I would have argued vociferously against franchising because I believed that the large private bus groups were doing a reasonable job. We now live in a different world post covid-19. What the region desperately needs is a stable and reliable bus network. A "quality partnership" would still result in operators withdrawing services at will if they were not making enough profit. Franchising would deliver a stable network that regular passengers could rely on and would gradually attract previously lost custom. I am all too aware of the ongoing problem of attracting enough driving staff to the industry, but I believe that is because it is perceived as a dwindling market. In a franchised regime, maybe more young people would be encouraged to make a career out of bus driving just as we used to do. When I became a bus driver in 1987, there was a constant stream of young people queuing up for a job because it was seen as a good money earner. If the network was stable and indeed growing, then people would not be worried about whether their job would last. Out of interest what would stop WYCA withdrawing franchised services at will if the revenue didn’t cover the costs of operating and the money tap ran dry (a real risk looking at what has happened to Birmingham council). Legally, nothing. But there would be quite some political fallout. Birmingham Council has been struggling financially for years.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Oct 23, 2023 16:59:44 GMT 1
Out of interest what would stop WYCA withdrawing franchised services at will if the revenue didn’t cover the costs of operating and the money tap ran dry (a real risk looking at what has happened to Birmingham council). Legally, nothing. But there would be quite some political fallout. Birmingham Council has been struggling financially for years. They've just withdrawn the East Leeds Flexibus I know they will suggest that franchising will lead to better frequencies all round but if the volumes don't grow, how long will they keep them running?
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Post by deerfold on Oct 23, 2023 17:31:01 GMT 1
Legally, nothing. But there would be quite some political fallout. Birmingham Council has been struggling financially for years. They've just withdrawn the East Leeds Flexibus I know they will suggest that franchising will lead to better frequencies all round but if the volumes don't grow, how long will they keep them running? They have withdrawn it. These schemes are usually bad value for money and they've spent all the money allocated to it. It was also a project that predated this Mayor. The budgets are important, but an attempt to improve the reliability and profitability of the network as a while seems better than dropping subsidised services one by one as they get fewer passengers and get more expensive, whilst currently profitable routes start requesting subsidy whilst the authority has no influence over how those routes are managed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2023 17:51:51 GMT 1
Legally, nothing. But there would be quite some political fallout. Birmingham Council has been struggling financially for years. They've just withdrawn the East Leeds Flexibus I know they will suggest that franchising will lead to better frequencies all round but if the volumes don't grow, how long will they keep them running? A DFT Funded scheme that the Flexibus was is different to a franchised network. There are many different avenues having a franchised/publicly owned network can open up different possible revenue streams that are currently more difficult under the private operator (Nottingham's car park levy for example) One thing to note from Manchester is that under franchising, what was the existing tendered network has become cheaper for them to fund as the price per mile of the network around Bolton/Wigan was around 1/3 cheaper than the first estimates. That means assuming the previously commercial routes/journeys continue to make a profit (or a surplus as it probably should be known as now) it means they have extra money to fund stuff like better frequencies. As for the argument over a franchised network going bust like a Council, bodies like a PTE/CA are differently funded than a Council (note Birmingham Council has gone bust but TfWM has not), or even better rather than pointing the finger of blame at Councils or PTEs for daring to introduce improvements maybe look at central government who keep finding new ways & excuses to cut funding across the board unless of course they need a quick good PR spin or the local MP went to the same Uni as them.
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Post by rwilkes on Oct 24, 2023 9:17:41 GMT 1
Legally, nothing. But there would be quite some political fallout. Birmingham Council has been struggling financially for years. They've just withdrawn the East Leeds Flexibus I know they will suggest that franchising will lead to better frequencies all round but if the volumes don't grow, how long will they keep them running? The elephant in the room about franchising about it that it transfers all the serious considerable financial risk from shareholders to council tax payers who can vote an anti-bus party in if they do not like their council tax bills. This happened in the early days of WY PTE when the tories doubled fares one October and again in the following April. There was a huge loss of passengers which were never recovered. Managed decline by bus managers is always better than slash and burn by politicians. FRanchising will work if you have the money and bus lanes, red routes and a congestion charge . Local politicians will not do this. So I prefer the currect awful mess to a short term improvement followed by a worse mess. congestion is awful for all travellers and a good bus policy is the only way was to make our roads fit for all road users
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Post by delenn on Oct 24, 2023 9:58:54 GMT 1
They've just withdrawn the East Leeds Flexibus I know they will suggest that franchising will lead to better frequencies all round but if the volumes don't grow, how long will they keep them running? The elephant in the room about franchising about it that it transfers all the serious considerable financial risk from shareholders to council tax payers who can vote an anti-bus party in if they do not like their council tax bills. This happened in the early days of WY PTE when the tories doubled fares one October and again in the following April. There was a huge loss of passengers which were never recovered. Managed decline by bus managers is always better than slash and burn by politicians. FRanchising will work if you have the money and bus lanes, red routes and a congestion charge . Local politicians will not do this. So I prefer the currect awful mess to a short term improvement followed by a worse mess. congestion is awful for all travellers and a good bus policy is the only way was to make our roads fit for all road users I think this post is brilliant. It says way better than I can exactly what I feel. I'd rather not let politicians run anything, because then they become a political football.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2023 13:42:04 GMT 1
Who exactly is this 'anti bus party'? Even the Tories are slowly waking up to the fact privatising the buses has created an almighty mess.
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Post by deerfold on Oct 24, 2023 15:32:39 GMT 1
The elephant in the room about franchising about it that it transfers all the serious considerable financial risk from shareholders to council tax payers who can vote an anti-bus party in if they do not like their council tax bills. This happened in the early days of WY PTE when the tories doubled fares one October and again in the following April. There was a huge loss of passengers which were never recovered. Managed decline by bus managers is always better than slash and burn by politicians. FRanchising will work if you have the money and bus lanes, red routes and a congestion charge . Local politicians will not do this. So I prefer the currect awful mess to a short term improvement followed by a worse mess. congestion is awful for all travellers and a good bus policy is the only way was to make our roads fit for all road users I think this post is brilliant. It says way better than I can exactly what I feel. I'd rather not let politicians run anything, because then they become a political football. Aren't buses a political football anyway? If you look on Twitter and Facebook the Metro pages are full of people complaining about their buses to an organisation that can do little about their complaints.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Oct 25, 2023 8:08:00 GMT 1
Who exactly is this 'anti bus party'? Even the Tories are slowly waking up to the fact privatising the buses has created an almighty mess. Right up until they think it may start to affect their vote where they suddenly start attacking the "war on motorists" and suggest reducing bus priority & reducing the cost of motoring (& it was Labour politicians who did something similar in Liverpool so it isn't so much a specific party as specific politicians & when I lived in Cardiff the local Liberal Democrats won the local elections in a specific part of the city by campaigning against bus priorities whilst the national party was campaigning for more and there was no mention of this plan in neighbouring areas). Even with what they have done it is a case of a lot of words, little action & even less money in practice. The Tories haven't had a sudden epiphany, they don't really care about & they definitely don't understand buses but they think it will provide a sop to the so called red wall to help hold their vote up whilst having the effect of dumping responsibility on largely Labour Mayors so if it goes wrong it isn't their fault anymore. Franchising is a reasonable path if their is plenty of long term funding and political will to develop the network, it is unreasonable to expect huge government investment without significant government influence on how it is spent (we haven't seen huge pots of money yet and what is spent is specifically targeted or comes with tight strings attached). They problem is that this doesn't exist, all schemes are based on an assumption of large profits that the bus industry doesn't make being transferred to the local authority (whilst still employing private businesses who need to make the same base profit margin regardless of industry structure, they just don't need the risk addition & vehicles are procured & funded in a different way that explains supposed differences in margin between London & the provinces) with no real plan of what happens if money doesn't appear, Tyne & Wear admitted when they tried to get in franchising they had no plan for anything beyond the first 6 years at all. The current privatised system may not be the best way to run a bus network but it is the best way to do it 'on the cheap' with minimal government money or responsibility. If you have long term financial, political & social (often expressed through the media) will to invest heavily in public transport then other ways like franchising are better but historically the UK has never shown that commitment and even now the media & politicians are not consistently supportive of pro-public transport initiatives if it involves sacrifice or cost to 'the general public' aka motorists.
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Post by rwilkes on Oct 25, 2023 13:20:16 GMT 1
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Oct 25, 2023 13:56:57 GMT 1
Ralph is always waffling on about franchising. He seems to never be able to provide me with a solution to the areas that already have priority, and his other demands, yet continue to decline and have timetables that don't fulfil a social purpose. I personally think his opinion on franchising in a region he isn't even NEAR is bias and irrelevant especially after one of his operations collapsing after failing to compete with an award winning publicly owned operator!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2023 14:31:57 GMT 1
Ralph is always waffling on about franchising. He seems to never be able to provide me with a solution to the areas that already have priority, and his other demands, yet continue to decline and have timetables that don't fulfil a social purpose. I personally think his opinion on franchising in a region he isn't even NEAR is bias and irrelevant especially after one of his operations collapsing after failing to compete with an award winning publicly owned operator! Threating legal action just because Burnham had some conversations with the SNP is very premature. After the recent West Lothian mess who could blame them for looking at franchising, meanwhile Ralph has already made false claims saying Lothian was a 'publicly subsidised' operator (it's council owned yes - but receives the exact same sort of subsidies as McGills does) He also has a habit of 'forgetting' when moaning about falling passenger numbers/number of cars on the road around the Inverclyde area is that most taxis in that area are owned by the same brothers who own McGills.
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