deerfold
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Post by deerfold on Mar 29, 2023 21:14:46 GMT 1
It’s just an industry in decline. Nothing can help it now in most rural areas. I think when it comes to rural bus services it seems like Calderdale is really good. Services 561/2 are very rural and takes you to rural villages and hamlets like Norland, Krumlim, Soyland, Cottonstones and Millbank and the demand certainly is there. Back in 2014, they tried to reduce the service to every 90 minutes rather than hourly however that backfired in the public consultation rounds as many people said they wanted an hourly frequency to remain. Another prime example is the X58 (587). WYCA wanted to drop the service however the demand was there as during the consultation rounds people wanted to have that direct link across the Pennines to Rochdale. The 561/2 used to run until late evening every day and before the 561/2 were introduced, the service from Halifax via Greetland to Ripponden ran the last trip out of Halifax to anywhere at 2325 every day. There were also peak extras between (sometimes Ripponden) Mill Bank and Halifax. The route itself combined the old more direct service through King Cross with the service through Copley making it painfully slow to travel from Halifax to Mill Bank or Soyland. The X58 lost its evening service and most of its Sunday service - it's gone from 14 each way on a Sunday to just 4 each way. The 586 recently dropped from hourly to every two hours. Less than 20 years ago there was a bus every 20 minutes along the main road from Halifax to Rippondem, dropping to half hourly evenings and Sundays. The link to Oldham went completely in 2006. The hilltop villages in Calderdale clearly have a better service than Grassington, but I'm not sure they've seen fewer cuts.
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Post by northerner on Mar 29, 2023 21:22:34 GMT 1
Whilst I don't disagree, the money would have to come from somewhere. With many councils already increasing the council tax by the maximum permitted, where would the funds come from? Ideally there would be a standard formula used for reimbursement for concessionary travel, which would also put the onus on operators to reduce their overheads as much as possible. In the case of the 64/72, transferring the route to Idle would reduce operating costs as their drivers are on a lower rate of pay than Keighley for example. Setting aside the point that drivers wages aren’t overheads - they are variable costs - Idle depot is twice as far from Skipton as Keighley is which would surely mean more paid hours which would offset the lower rate. Maybe that’s why the 64 (as 784) moved to Keighley in the first place. OK, maybe overheads was incorrect but drivers are still a cost which the taxpayer funds on tendered routes one way or another. Looking at the Flyer and Keighley job ads, there's a 4K difference in the quoted salaries, I remain unconvinced the additional dead running would come close to this, and is it confirmed that the bus will start/end at Skipton rather than Ilkley?
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Mar 30, 2023 8:43:36 GMT 1
And what you do is to find opportunities in a declining industry. You don't do that buy spending £millions on brand new double deckers, and then yet more money on designers to come up with ideas to spend even more money on "pimping up" these new buses, and/or trying to compete with railway lines that are the subject of the biggest rail infrastructure and rolling stock upgrade in the North, because you will lose and have to Zap off. Once those costs are on your balance sheet then you have a problem. That is a lot of debt, depreciation or lease costs to service. Without those costs, you can purchase some older and/or smaller buses, run a low-cost operation, and make money. That is just plain incorrect, though it is a horses for courses question and you are comparing apples & oranges. If you are running high profile interurban work then you buy high profile interurban spec buses like Transdev has done with the Sky Class and all major companies have done similarly (Stagecoach Gold, First have a number in areas like East Anglia & the South West, Go-Ahead do so, National Express seem to be standardising on a higher spec for their deckers in the West Midlands & many smaller operators have done similarly - even Arriva have done it but in their usual way it is patchy & inconsistent). On the core commercial routes you are competing with the car so need to provide something that doesn't compare badly (you can never get something specced like a modern car but comfort & image need to be of a certain standard). This is completely seperate from what you may buy and use on marginal work but investing in core commercial work is needed to grow those markets that offer that to take the pressure off marginal work (if you are making good profit on core work you can accept tighter margins on the lesser work but if you are not growing that you need a higher margin on other work to ensure longer term stability for the company as a whole). It is less a declining industry as a refocusing one, reacting to increasing costs & further economies from local authorities that mean that these weaker & largely supported services are being further cut. It doesn't matter how cheap or old the buses they buy are it is always going to be difficult to make decent money on these sort of services for a big operator like Transdev - their wages are higher (the price of expecting drivers to work early/late & Sundays) and their overheads are higher (needed to deal with the things these operators need to deal with) so these routes will never be a money spinner for them (if they price as such they become uneconomical for the council to fund) but they may be justified at a more marginal costing to support the network, spread overheads a bit and as part of wider partnership approaches (none of these justify doing so at a loss but just at a smaller profit margin than would normally be needed). There are opportunities on corridors where you can get a decent service offering in the current climate but there are certain services that will never get to a service volume that will make them anything more than marginal and those are becoming more at risk. The issue the industry has is that councils are still underfunded and bus services are easier to cut than other council services so these rural supported services will be the first on the review table. On top of this there is a decline in smaller operators who would normally operate these services at lower costs, it is much more expensive to set up a new business than it was even 10-years ago - buses cost more (Clean Air Zones & low-floor buses mean that a cheap starter bus is more expensive to buy, run & maintain that it was), you have to have enough in the bank to run for almost no income for several months as it takes that long to add an operator to the concessionary fare schemes and there are so many technological & legal expectations on operators now it is much less attractive. Ideally the industry needs 3 layers of operators - the top line high cost & high quality operators (I call them legacy operators as they have origins in old state owned business and most are part of big groups) who have the resources to handle big volume routes & work with government local & national on major projects, then below them a lower cost regional independent who handles marginal commercial work (that can't support the costs of a legacy operator) keeping it off the books of the council to allow funding to be spent on truly non-commercial routes and can resource big tender projects (these are disappearing as the original operators are selling up and retiring and what would be their replacements are staying small to avoid all the issues of scale now turning up) & below these are the old style small local independents who do a few local tenders around schools and the like (many of these are pulling out of bus work as they can't be doing with the hassle & legal hoops they have to negotiate now). This disruption in the needed structure is down to poorly thought through government legislation and interference and is unbalancing the marginal & non-commercial market massively.
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Post by leedsbusman on Mar 30, 2023 10:02:31 GMT 1
Setting aside the point that drivers wages aren’t overheads - they are variable costs - Idle depot is twice as far from Skipton as Keighley is which would surely mean more paid hours which would offset the lower rate. Maybe that’s why the 64 (as 784) moved to Keighley in the first place. OK, maybe overheads was incorrect but drivers are still a cost which the taxpayer funds on tendered routes one way or another. Looking at the Flyer and Keighley job ads, there's a 4K difference in the quoted salaries, I remain unconvinced the additional dead running would come close to this, and is it confirmed that the bus will start/end at Skipton rather than Ilkley? The 72 runs dead to/from Skipton, the 64 inter works with the 62 so very little dead running to Keighley Bus Station. Operators will bid for tenders generally using the most economical model as clearly adding in more cost increases the risk of losing. Clearly using Keighley makes more sense to the bidder. Of course what you don’t know from the headline salary is whether there is a separate low cost rate for tenders at Keighley which makes the argument immaterial.
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Post by peter44 on Apr 10, 2023 18:16:01 GMT 1
Changes to the 62, 64, 66, 67, 72 and K9 registered on VOSA for the 21st of May
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Post by northerner on Apr 15, 2023 23:06:34 GMT 1
Changes to the 62, 64, 66, 67, 72 and K9 registered on VOSA for the 21st of May Timetables now on Metro's site for 62, 67 and K9. Doesn't look to be anything major, on the 67 off peak buses leave Keighley 5 minutes later and the 0810 from Cullingworth to Bradford is withdrawn. 62 and K9 seems to be a couple of journeys slightly retimed so a bit of a disappointment overall.
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Post by Bradford Traveller on Apr 15, 2023 23:25:23 GMT 1
Changes to the 62, 64, 66, 67, 72 and K9 registered on VOSA for the 21st of May There will only be slight changes to the 62 and 67, as these interwork at Keighley
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Username
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Post by Username on Apr 16, 2023 6:18:33 GMT 1
Changes to the 62, 64, 66, 67, 72 and K9 registered on VOSA for the 21st of May There will only be slight changes to the 62 and 67, as these interwork at Keighley 67 stopped interworking 62 since it went via Spring Bank.
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Post by northerner on Apr 16, 2023 22:20:42 GMT 1
There will only be slight changes to the 62 and 67, as these interwork at Keighley 67 stopped interworking 62 since it went via Spring Bank. Some journeys do still interwork in the afternoons
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Apr 17, 2023 6:10:05 GMT 1
67 change is just a route amendment in Bradford City Centre
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deerfold
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Post by deerfold on Apr 17, 2023 10:49:12 GMT 1
67 stopped interworking 62 since it went via Spring Bank. Some journeys do still interwork in the afternoons Thanks, I wondered if I was imagining it.
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Post by northerner on Apr 17, 2023 20:55:20 GMT 1
67 change is just a route amendment in Bradford City Centre There's also some minor amendments including off peak journeys leaving Keighley 5 minutes later and the withdrawal of the 0810 Cullingworth - Bradford
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Post by martinsfp on Apr 18, 2023 0:49:31 GMT 1
67 change is just a route amendment in Bradford City Centre There's also some minor amendments including off peak journeys leaving Keighley 5 minutes later and the withdrawal of the 0810 Cullingworth - Bradford What's the new Bradford city centre route?
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SF07
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Post by SF07 on Apr 21, 2023 18:24:51 GMT 1
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deerfold
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Post by deerfold on Apr 21, 2023 22:00:13 GMT 1
Couple of less obvious changes. The second 66 towards Keighley on a Saturday is now a 62 from Silsden, no longer running from Crosshills. The last 66 on a Sunday from Skipton is now half an hour later, which would have been very useful for me a few years ago - I used to have to cut a lesson short to catch the last bus at Cross Hills every week.
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Post by kommie123 on Apr 25, 2023 11:45:36 GMT 1
Good to see the 9 go back to hourly during the week from May changes.
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Post by Username on Apr 25, 2023 20:21:49 GMT 1
Good to see the 9 go back to hourly during the week from May changes. The 9 is hourly?
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Post by kommie123 on Apr 25, 2023 22:28:30 GMT 1
It's every 90 mins currently during the week.
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Post by stephen01 on Apr 26, 2023 0:20:10 GMT 1
Good to see the 9 go back to hourly during the week from May changes. The 9 is hourly? what kommie123 means is that Squarepeg's trips will be returning to hourly according to Metro and not current every 90 mins which means they've increased staffing as 966 & 31 both require 1 bus each, the 81 is 2 buses whilst 9 currently runs with 3 buses with one coming off about lunch time and the bus on the 80 dropping into slot with the 1455 from Horsforth.
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Post by LukePA on Apr 26, 2023 13:37:14 GMT 1
9 White Rose Centre • Garforth • Seacroft • King Lane • Horsforth Mon 22 May 2023 Operated by Squarepeg The Monday to Friday frequency will be increased from approx. every 90 minutes to hourly, however the evening journey extension to Wortley will be withdrawn. Saturday journeys will be unchanged. 62 Keighley • Steeton • Silsden • Ilkley Sun 21 May 2023 Operated by The Keighley Bus Company Some journeys will be retimed by 5 to10 minutes. Early morning journeys will be transferred from service 66. 64 Ilkley • Skipton Sun 21 May 2023 Operated by The Keighley Bus Company School journeys previously numbered V64 will be incorporated. The frequency will be reduced to two-hourly. 66 Keighley • Steeton • Silsden • Skipton Sun 21 May 2023 Operated by The Keighley Bus Company Early morning journeys via Silsden will be renumbered to service 62. 67 Keighley • Cullingworth • Thornton • Bradford Sun 21 May 2023 Operated by The Keighley Bus Company Some journeys will be retimed by 5 minutes. The Monday to Friday 0810 journey from Cullingworth to Bradford will be withdrawn. 74A Ilkley • Bolton Abbey • Burnsall • Linton • Grassington • Hebden Mon 22 May 2023 Operated by North Yorkshire Council The 1210 Grassington to Hebden and 1215 Hebden to Grassington short journeys will be withdrawn. 128 Wakefield • Lupset • Horbury • Middlestown • Overton Sun 28 May 2023 Operated by Station Coaches Service 128 will be withdrawn. Arriva service 232 provides an alternative hourly link between Wakefield, Lupset, Horbury, Middlestown and Overton. 820 821 Keighley • Shipley • Otley • Pateley Bridge • Scar House Sun 21 May 2023 Operated by The Keighley Bus Company The summer Sunday DalesBus service will commence. K9 Keighley • Bracken Bank Circular Sun 21 May 2023 Operated by The Keighley Bus Company There will be a minor timetable change to slightly retime the Monday to Friday 1712 journey. From: www.wymetro.com/media/9544/public-transport-changes-may-2023-13901.pdf
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Post by Username on Apr 26, 2023 21:55:05 GMT 1
No way that's all the changes. May service changes are usually bigger.
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Post by peteleeds on Apr 27, 2023 7:09:56 GMT 1
No way that's all the changes. May service changes are usually bigger. I was expecting arriva changes due to the springs
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Post by kommie123 on Apr 28, 2023 7:46:11 GMT 1
No way that's all the changes. May service changes are usually bigger. I was expecting arriva changes due to the springs Apparently it has an internal target date of 30th May.
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Post by joseph on May 8, 2023 16:58:37 GMT 1
From mid May, NYCC have listed the 42 Selby Cawood York service as having additional Saturday journeys from Stillingfleet to York, and an additional late afternoon Saturday working from York to Selby. If Bus Times is right, then TWO of these journeys will mirror an existing journeys between Stillingfleet and York. bustimes.org/services/42-cawood-selby-college?date=2023-05-27I wouldn't have thought that Stillingfleet was big enough to warrant additional journeys, never mind a duplicate service, neither Naburn for that matter.
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Post by stevieinselby on May 8, 2023 17:16:07 GMT 1
From mid May, NYCC have listed the 42 Selby Cawood York service as having additional Saturday journeys from Stillingfleet to York, and an additional late afternoon Saturday working from York to Selby. If Bus Times is right, then TWO of these journeys will mirror an existing journeys between Stillingfleet and York. bustimes.org/services/42-cawood-selby-college?date=2023-05-27I wouldn't have thought that Stillingfleet was big enough to warrant additional journeys, never mind a duplicate service, neither Naburn for that matter. It is primarily for Naburn Lock caravan park. Because of the restrictions on Cawood Bridge, Arriva can only use baby buses (8.9m E200s or Solos). These buses can get pretty busy as they get near to York, especially now the frequency has been dropped to every 2 hours, and there have been problems especially on Saturdays with the bus being full and people being left behind. An extra bus is being put on during the busy spell in the morning, which will provide 3 extra journeys into York – two of them duplicating a service from Selby and then one additional journey in between – to reduce that overcrowding and ensure all passengers can board. The buses start from Stillingfleet because there's nowhere to turn a bus at Naburn Lock, so they will run empty from York down the A19 to Escrick and then across to Stillingfleet where they turn towards York – and so there, once they're on the normal route, they might as well run in service and pick up passengers from Stillingfleet if required, even though that isn't the main aim. The evening peak isn't quite so concentrated, especially with the late night buses running til 2300, and so one extra journey back to Selby at 1750 to give an hourly service at that point should be ample. I believe these extra journeys are funded by the parish councils (but I could be wrong), and the intention is that they will run while Naburn Lock is open, and so may be suspended during January, February and March.
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