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Post by www.buseireann.ie on Jun 21, 2017 20:22:48 GMT 1
Just saying a hell of a lot of people I know in Saltaire drive because the bus is a boring stop stop slow OAP/Disabled/M Card pass (I'm referring to the slowness of the scanner not the person using the pass) ask me a dumb question about where the bus goes and how much is it drag of a journey. You could easily make the 662 every 15 minutes and have a X62 every 15 minutes running via the 760 route to Saltaire near Ring O Bells then non stop to Bradford. Why do you think the 760 was made more express like in the first place, obviously to re-attract lost custom from the many in places like Bingley who have had enough of the drag and turned to the train despite it's rip off expense. Turn all 697/8 journeys into X97/8 with the first stops being at Thornton, if you really want to cut traffic levels, you've really got to make journeys much quicker.
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Post by stevieinselby on Jun 21, 2017 22:29:48 GMT 1
Just saying a hell of a lot of people I know in Saltaire drive because the bus is a boring stop stop slow OAP/Disabled/M Card pass (I'm referring to the slowness of the scanner not the person using the pass) ask me a dumb question about where the bus goes and how much is it drag of a journey. You could easily make the 662 every 15 minutes and have a X62 every 15 minutes running via the 760 route to Saltaire near Ring O Bells then non stop to Bradford. Why do you think the 760 was made more express like in the first place, obviously to re-attract lost custom from the many in places like Bingley who have had enough of the drag and turned to the train despite it's rip off expense. Turn all 697/8 journeys into X97/8 with the first stops being at Thornton, if you really want to cut traffic levels, you've really got to make journeys much quicker. The problem with running express journeys, especially in urban areas where they share the route of the stoppers, is that unless you have a very frequent stopping service, you're going to really p!ss off the people wanting to make journeys not served by the express, when they see buses whizzing past that they can't use. Given that many of the express corridors you've suggested are already served by trains, that do the express job better and, unlike in many areas of the country, are very reasonably priced, I'm really not sure there is any need to duplicate those services with buses.
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Post by neukit on Jun 21, 2017 23:35:07 GMT 1
You can't coordinate an 'express' and a stopping service along the same route, so an X62/662 type plan would never work very well.
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Post by www.buseireann.ie on Jun 22, 2017 0:33:05 GMT 1
But you wouldn't need co-ordination because the 662 would serve locally done journeys where as the X62 would serve the more longer made journeys giving the bigger areas on route a faster service to other bigger places, e.g. Crossflatts passengers would get a quicker journey to Bradford and Keighley whilst those in Riddlesden would use the 662. Now I do realise it does mean that Crossflatts has a big advantage over Riddlesden for Bradford journeys, but an express bus can't serve everywhere otherwise those further along the route will quite understandably miffed, that's where the bus network has been going so wrong. Regarding train v bus, fares are a rip off at over £7 for a day return from Leeds to Saltaire, even the M Card zone 1 to 3 is expensive compared to bus season tickets and when you factor in the distance between some parts of the 662 route and train stations, the walk adds up to 12 minutes each way to journey times. Take Victoria Park or Nab Wood to Saltaire Station, quite a walk where as the bus is closer. Bingley isn't nowhere near as far to walk from the town centre I'll admit but if the fares are cheap, you could still attract some custom, especially from those who perhaps might think 'sod the extra half mile, I'll catch the bus as it'll work out the same by the time I've got my ticket and waited for the train'
Edit - I've realised why I thought it was £6.80 from Bradford to Saltaire return on the train, I changed the Saltaire box to Bradford instead of the Leeds box to Bradford so now I've realised the fare to Bradford isn't as bad, but an express bus still can compete on time saved to the train station.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jun 22, 2017 9:17:02 GMT 1
Just saying a hell of a lot of people I know in Saltaire drive because the bus is a boring stop stop slow OAP/Disabled/M Card pass (I'm referring to the slowness of the scanner not the person using the pass) ask me a dumb question about where the bus goes and how much is it drag of a journey. You could easily make the 662 every 15 minutes and have a X62 every 15 minutes running via the 760 route to Saltaire near Ring O Bells then non stop to Bradford. Why do you think the 760 was made more express like in the first place, obviously to re-attract lost custom from the many in places like Bingley who have had enough of the drag and turned to the train despite it's rip off expense. Turn all 697/8 journeys into X97/8 with the first stops being at Thornton, if you really want to cut traffic levels, you've really got to make journeys much quicker. This isn't a new concept, it has been tried in many areas multiple times and I can't think of many where it has produced a viable express bus network within an urban area. All the PTEs tried this during the early eighties and outside a few remnants in the West Midlands where the road network was rebuilt for cars with a lot of urban motorways & expressways that these long distance expresses also use, none survived very long. Most of the big groups have tried resurrecting this idea in the big conurbations and likewise they rarely lasted more than a few years. The problem is you start off by cannibalising your own market across two routes, and so making the existing route less secure by taking a proportion of passengers it will be difficult to replace, and relies on the express gaining a significant enough number of new passengers to prop up the extra cost and whilst many people will claim the slowness of the bus is the reason for not using many will then find another excuse if you fix that problem. Where these routes have worked is where the express bus can use a faster route than the non-express route rather than just skipping certain stops, as others have said it raises issues for customers waiting at the roadside when a bus drives past going to where they want to go without stopping. There is the potential, with the better quality of modern buses (including Wi-Fi & USB points for example) & more concern for environmental issues leading to a more positive view of public transport in some areas that these services may offer a positive potential for better success in the future but since they haven't been that successful in the relatively recent past it will require a brave company to be the first to take another punt at this concept, as history has shown in other areas if someone takes the go and makes a success many will follow but someone has to be first (and in the current economic & political climate many will view it as not the right time to be taking such risks) and there is a big risk it will fail, many of the attempts at doing something new have faltered just short of becoming a viable prospect.
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Jun 22, 2017 10:45:44 GMT 1
Just saying a hell of a lot of people I know in Saltaire drive because the bus is a boring stop stop slow OAP/Disabled/M Card pass (I'm referring to the slowness of the scanner not the person using the pass) ask me a dumb question about where the bus goes and how much is it drag of a journey. You could easily make the 662 every 15 minutes and have a X62 every 15 minutes running via the 760 route to Saltaire near Ring O Bells then non stop to Bradford. Why do you think the 760 was made more express like in the first place, obviously to re-attract lost custom from the many in places like Bingley who have had enough of the drag and turned to the train despite it's rip off expense. Turn all 697/8 journeys into X97/8 with the first stops being at Thornton, if you really want to cut traffic levels, you've really got to make journeys much quicker. The problem with running express journeys, especially in urban areas where they share the route of the stoppers, is that unless you have a very frequent stopping service, you're going to really p!ss off the people wanting to make journeys not served by the express, when they see buses whizzing past that they can't use. Given that many of the express corridors you've suggested are already served by trains, that do the express job better and, unlike in many areas of the country, are very reasonably priced, I'm really not sure there is any need to duplicate those services with buses. Quite a common complaint in York (from a few passengers) where the Poppleton Bar P&R passes a fairly busy stop, and the passengers have to wait for a local service - if the P&R was to stop there, there would be quite a bit of revenue taken, but that may be enough to destabilise the local services.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jun 22, 2017 18:44:55 GMT 1
You can't coordinate an 'express' and a stopping service along the same route, so an X62/662 type plan would never work very well. Like what used to be the case with the 363 & X6. In brighouse you'd just get two buses coming together every 20 minutes. To introduce an express bus you have to either deploy extra resources or reduce the stopping service. If it's the latter you've just annoyed the passengers where the express bus doesn't stop.
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Post by www.buseireann.ie on Jun 22, 2017 21:32:10 GMT 1
To be quite honest, you've really got to get more express buses in West Yorkshire because many out there are simply fed up with slow all stopping journeys and if that means stopping services are reduced in frequency so you have the resources to do express buses serving the more popular or larger places on a stopping route, then that's how it's got to be. For far too long people have had to suffer endless all stops all over every back street journeys, if congestion is to be cut, not addressing this major put off won't help.
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Post by Marcus on Jun 22, 2017 21:54:54 GMT 1
Using the 202/3 routes as an example, an express service would work. What we're seeing with those routes is that they're usually turning off the main roads to serve the surrounding estates, resulting in longer journey times which aren't attractive to some passengers. It's possible they could cut journey times by up to half an hour(ish?) is using an express service just going along the main road. With the 662/X62, as westyorkshirebus said about the 363/X6, is that it's mainly along the same route, only cutting off a few minutes between the two services and making them less coordinated.
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Post by angrycommuter on Jun 23, 2017 15:16:59 GMT 1
Using the 202/3 routes as an example, an express service would work. What we're seeing with those routes is that they're usually turning off the main roads to serve the surrounding estates, resulting in longer journey times which aren't attractive to some passengers. It's possible they could cut journey times by up to half an hour(ish?) is using an express service just going along the main road. With the 662/X62, as westyorkshirebus said about the 363/X6, is that it's mainly along the same route, only cutting off a few minutes between the two services and making them less coordinated. Yorkshire Traction did make an effort in this regard by extending the 262 as x62 Leeds direct from Dewsbury running straight to White Rose then M621 (it did serve all stops but took more direct route). The short lived x61 ran Hudds to Mirfield direct on main roads then same as x62 to Leeds, so at one stage had 3 direct service an hour on top of 4 normal services 201/2/3. The trouble was most passengers got on the first bus that came as the Tracky services were not the most reliable, using Leyland nationals and any other random single decker. The arriva day ticket also meant many passengers didn't use the alternative service and so they eventually reverted back to 262 Dewsbury only. My view is that if an express service is to be successful it also needs infrastructure spending on bus lanes and priority junctions. Otherwise journey times are still going to be slow and defeats the object of a "fast" service.
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Post by steviewevie on Jun 23, 2017 23:38:00 GMT 1
Regarding express bus services. West Riding/Yorkshire Woollen used to operate the Fastaway network. How many of those routes survive now? Not even the X5 (210 originally) between Wakefield and Leeds, though there is the X41 via a slightly longer route.
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Post by moorside on Jun 24, 2017 2:20:45 GMT 1
I am now exiled in the West Midlands, but here express routes work well in some places. E.g. between Walsall and Birmingham there is the 51 (stopping) with a high frequency, and the X51 which follows the same route except it omits the One Stop shopping centre, and it is limited stop. The X51 seems to go from strength to strength and has had its frequency increased twice in recent years and now runs later in the day also. But it is helped by having dedicated bus lanes for much of the route as well as the high-grade "Platinum" buses. It is still slower than the train, but given the ease of access to the bus compared to climbing up and down stairs at the train stations, the need to buy your ticket before you get on the train etc, then the end-to-end journey time is just as good on the bus as the train. I think for the concept to work in West Yorkshire it would need better roads as many roads are still single carriageway with no room for bus lanes.
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Steve Macz403
Forum Member
Waits at the bus stop for his bus, 2 days later bus turns up :D
Posts: 1,679
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Post by Steve Macz403 on Jun 24, 2017 6:02:46 GMT 1
I am now exiled in the West Midlands, but here express routes work well in some places. E.g. between Walsall and Birmingham there is the 51 (stopping) with a high frequency, and the X51 which follows the same route except it omits the One Stop shopping centre, and it is limited stop. The X51 seems to go from strength to strength and has had its frequency increased twice in recent years and now runs later in the day also. But it is helped by having dedicated bus lanes for much of the route as well as the high-grade "Platinum" buses. It is still slower than the train, but given the ease of access to the bus compared to climbing up and down stairs at the train stations, the need to buy your ticket before you get on the train etc, then the end-to-end journey time is just as good on the bus as the train. I think for the concept to work in West Yorkshire it would need better roads as many roads are still single carriageway with no room for bus lanes. Birmingham has good roads out of the city. Most routes out the city are dual carriageways, With bus lanes on both ends. I've noticed a switch over for Platinum routes over there , now X1 and X2 previously the 900 and 957 and 957 used to be an allstops 57. The 61 has recently swapped over to Platinum now limited stop X61 The tough bit with Leeds, the road network hasn't been designed to hold more traffic now than it used too. The road layouts don't do the city justice. A lot of occurring Bottle necks happen, in certain areas. Headlingley corridor is a bad route out of Leeds. Regardless. Summers probably the easier time, but I've seen woodhouse lane clogged even in those time periods. Kirkstall corridor despite the recent upgrades. At least bus lanes have improved flow. But still by car it's not advisable. Even Cardigan Road and Burley Road can be a nightmare. I don't think will make the route any faster on a late afternoon/evening out of Leeds.
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Post by Craig on Jun 28, 2017 15:39:53 GMT 1
Yes, the YT 241 is being renumbered 85 in line with the 80-84 series which are also going to be revamped. Guess the tenders have been renewed, but with some reductions along the way. The changes are quite significant and help to streamline this group of services. Thankfully any reductions don't seem too harsh, in fact some areas gain a better service, and the overall PVR I would estimate is unchanged or increased by 1. 80 Clayton West replaced by extra journeys on 81. In Lepton it is replaced by the 83. 81 Clayton West now runs twice per hour Mon-Sat, with buses avoiding Highburton (replaced by 82). One bus per hour in the daytime extends from Clayton West to Denby Dale then follows a one-way loop serving Upper Cumberworth, Birdsedge and Upper Denby then back to Denby Dale, Clayton West and Huddersfield. Sundays and a few early Saturday journeys are numbered 81A and still serve Highburton. 82 Denby Dale now runs via Highburton at all times. The timetable is simplified with Mon-Sat departures at xx45 from both ends of the route for most of the day. Sunday service unchanged. 83 Denby Dale will run via Lepton replacing the 80. It will no longer serve Station Road in Shepley. Between Shepley and Denby Dale it follows the 84 route via Upper/Lower Cumberworth. Again a simplified timetable is used, xx15 from Huddersfield and xx28 from Denby Dale. 84 Denby Dale replaced by rerouted 83. 85 Waterloo/Lepton/Houses Hill new service with two buses per hour, the timetable is a little confusing with some gaps but generally it's one bus an hour to Waterloo depot, one bus an hour to Lepton (serving Rowley Lane and back via Highgate Lane), but with most peak buses serving Lepton. Some buses extend to Houses Hill, the number of journeys is unchanged but buses are better timed for peak time travel. This means that Mon-Sat daytime there is a 10-min frequency to Waterloo, with more buses to Lepton, more buses serving Upper Denby, and a more simplified network with less variations (compare to the current 83 timetable which is a bit of a mess!). In the early morning more southbound buses start from Huddersfield rather than Waterloo. Some downsides to the changes are longer journey times for some areas and fewer buses per day serving Shepley for example. In all the changes seem fairly positive, or at worst neutral, not bad for a largely rural network of services run by an operator who get quite a lot of stick for other things!
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Post by SCH117X on Jun 28, 2017 21:22:39 GMT 1
Transdev have reduced the extent of cuts to the 24 following discussions with Dalesbus and the Nidderdale Chamber of Trade and Sunday services will now continue to till the end of September.
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Post by jdodger08 on Jun 29, 2017 17:55:43 GMT 1
Yes, the YT 241 is being renumbered 85 in line with the 80-84 series which are also going to be revamped. Guess the tenders have been renewed, but with some reductions along the way. The changes are quite significant and help to streamline this group of services. Thankfully any reductions don't seem too harsh, in fact some areas gain a better service, and the overall PVR I would estimate is unchanged or increased by 1. 80 Clayton West replaced by extra journeys on 81. In Lepton it is replaced by the 83. 81 Clayton West now runs twice per hour Mon-Sat, with buses avoiding Highburton (replaced by 82). One bus per hour in the daytime extends from Clayton West to Denby Dale then follows a one-way loop serving Upper Cumberworth, Birdsedge and Upper Denby then back to Denby Dale, Clayton West and Huddersfield. Sundays and a few early Saturday journeys are numbered 81A and still serve Highburton. 82 Denby Dale now runs via Highburton at all times. The timetable is simplified with Mon-Sat departures at xx45 from both ends of the route for most of the day. Sunday service unchanged. 83 Denby Dale will run via Lepton replacing the 80. It will no longer serve Station Road in Shepley. Between Shepley and Denby Dale it follows the 84 route via Upper/Lower Cumberworth. Again a simplified timetable is used, xx15 from Huddersfield and xx28 from Denby Dale. 84 Denby Dale replaced by rerouted 83. 85 Waterloo/Lepton/Houses Hill new service with two buses per hour, the timetable is a little confusing with some gaps but generally it's one bus an hour to Waterloo depot, one bus an hour to Lepton (serving Rowley Lane and back via Highgate Lane), but with most peak buses serving Lepton. Some buses extend to Houses Hill, the number of journeys is unchanged but buses are better timed for peak time travel. This means that Mon-Sat daytime there is a 10-min frequency to Waterloo, with more buses to Lepton, more buses serving Upper Denby, and a more simplified network with less variations (compare to the current 83 timetable which is a bit of a mess!). In the early morning more southbound buses start from Huddersfield rather than Waterloo. Some downsides to the changes are longer journey times for some areas and fewer buses per day serving Shepley for example. In all the changes seem fairly positive, or at worst neutral, not bad for a largely rural network of services run by an operator who get quite a lot of stick for other things! Armley road up to Mikes carpets and the dual carriageway is just a nightmare, and they have built a segregated cycleway so now the road is far to narrow. Same on Wilmslow road in Manchester, the busses seem to struggle a lot there to the point where the body is just above the kerb
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Post by 1071 on Jun 29, 2017 17:58:22 GMT 1
226 will be operated by south pennine community transport from 24th July
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SF07
Forum Member
Posts: 3,216
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Post by SF07 on Jun 29, 2017 19:46:35 GMT 1
The July changes are now on the Metro website: - 31/32 (Yorkshire Tiger/Fourway Coaches): Services taken over by Fourway Coaches with minor timetable changes
- 59 (Stagecoach): Times changed
- 62 (Transdev): Curtailed to run between Keighley and Otley
- 66 (Transdev): Times changed
- 80 (Yorkshire Tiger): Withdrawn
- 81/81A (Yorkshire Tiger): Service re-routed to no longer serve Highburton (served by re-routed 82) and continues to Upper Denby, replacing service 83. Service 81A is introduced, running on Saturday mornings and Sundays, which will serve Highburton.
- 82 (Yorkshire Tiger): Service re-routed to serve Highburton, replacing serivce 81
- 83/83A/83X/84/84A (Yorkshire Tiger): Current 83, 83A, 84 and 84A are withdrawn and replaced by new service 83, which will operate between Huddersfield and Denby Dale via Lepton, Highburton, Shepley and Upper Cumberworth. One morning journey will operate as 83X to provide faster journey into Huddersfield.
- 85/85A (Yorkshire Tiger): New services introduced, partly replacing service 241, running between Huddersfield and Lepton via Waterloo. Service 85 will run a one-way loop in Lepton, while service 85A will continue to Houses Hill.
- 148 (Arriva): Times changed
- 154 (Stagecoach): Times changed
- 163/166/X60 (Arriva): Times changed
- 184 (First): Times changed for summer holidays
- 212/212A (Arriva): Times changed on Sundays, while Monday-Saturday daytime journeys are re-numbered 212A.
- 217 (Arriva): Afternoon journeys re-timed and re-routed in Overton
- 226 (TJ Walsh/South Pennine CT): Service taken over by South Pennine CT
- 231/232 (Arriva/Yorkshire Tiger): Sunday service taken over by Yorkshire Tiger
- 241 (Yorkshire Tiger): Service re-numbered 85A.
- 262 (Yorkshire Tiger): Journeys to/from Dewsbury are reduced to hourly with buses continuing to run half-hourly between Huddersfield and Kirkheaton. Sunday journeys extended to Mirfield.
- 300 (TJ Walsh): Withdrawn
- 319 (Yorkshire Tiger): Times changed
- 321/323/324 (Yorkshire Tiger): Times changed
- 366 (Yorkshire Tiger): Times changed
- 525 (TJ Walsh): Times changed with frequency reduced to every 15 minutes
- 574 (Yorkshire Tiger): Times changed
- 653 (TLC Travel): Withdrawn
- 662 (Transdev): Times changed with some evening journeys withdrawn
- 696/697/698 (Transdev): Re-numbered from 696, 697 and 698 to 68, 67 and 69 respectively with some evening journeys withdrawn. Service re-routed in Bradford city centre via Preston Street
- 760 (Transdev): Re-numbered 60 some evening journeys withdrawn
- 770/771 (Transdev): Re-numbered 70/71 with no changes to times
- B1/B2/B3 (Transdev): Times changed with some evening journeys withdrawn
- CityZap (Transdev): Times changed with evening journeys after 2000 withdrawn
- K1 (Transdev): Times changed with some early morning and evening journeys withdrawn
- K2/K3 (Transdev): Times changed with some early morning and evening journeys withdrawn
- K5 (Transdev): Times changed with some early morning and evening journeys withdrawn
- K6 (Transdev): Times changed with some Saturday morning journeys withdrawn
- K7 (Transdev): Times changed with some early morning and evening journeys withdrawn
- K9 (Transdev): Times changed with some early morning and evening journeys withdrawn
- K11 (Transdev): Withdrawn
www.wymetro.com/uploadedFiles/WYMetro/Content/travelnews/ServiceChanges/Service-changes.pdf
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Post by gooderson1 on Jun 30, 2017 6:29:48 GMT 1
Bit of a surprise S Pennine CT taking over the 226(Halifax-Norwood Green. Unless the timetable is changing then there are three single journeys Mon-Fri (one towards Halifax and two towards Norward Green) the dead mileage from the Waterloo area must be greater than that operated in service
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Post by dennisthemenace504 on Jun 30, 2017 8:04:30 GMT 1
Bit of a surprise S Pennine CT taking over the 226(Halifax-Norwood Green. Unless the timetable is changing then there are three single journeys Mon-Fri (one towards Halifax and two towards Norward Green) the dead mileage from the Waterloo area must be greater than that operated in service. Timetable remains the same, which should be two into Halifax and two out
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Post by gooderson1 on Jun 30, 2017 8:42:50 GMT 1
Sorry. Yes you are correct two journeys each way. Using an iPad-looked at the timetable on the Metro site and then tried to remember the details when I typed on this page.
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Jul 1, 2017 22:21:06 GMT 1
Using the 202/3 routes as an example, an express service would work. What we're seeing with those routes is that they're usually turning off the main roads to serve the surrounding estates, resulting in longer journey times which aren't attractive to some passengers. It's possible they could cut journey times by up to half an hour(ish?) is using an express service just going along the main road. With the 662/X62, as westyorkshirebus said about the 363/X6, is that it's mainly along the same route, only cutting off a few minutes between the two services and making them less coordinated. I wonder whether they could reduce the less popular out of routes 202 or 203 to 1 bus an hour, and introduce a replacement hourly limited stop route X2 with few stops apart from Huddersfield, Dewsbury, White Rose Centre, Leeds Rail Station and Leeds Bus Station.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jul 2, 2017 0:37:12 GMT 1
Bit of a surprise S Pennine CT taking over the 226(Halifax-Norwood Green. Unless the timetable is changing then there are three single journeys Mon-Fri (one towards Halifax and two towards Norward Green) the dead mileage from the Waterloo area must be greater than that operated in service Assuming the linked school service has also passed to them, the day's duty actually starts even further away at Odsal.
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Post by www.buseireann.ie on Jul 2, 2017 8:43:41 GMT 1
If they won a contract to operate one of the Brighouse local services would they be bashed in the same way? It could just simply be a Huddersfield based driver who takes the bus home with them, Odsal and Huddersfield aren't that far apart and Waterloo isn't significant miles from Huddersfield to be fair.
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Post by gooderson1 on Jul 2, 2017 8:55:04 GMT 1
I wasn't "bashing". Assuming that the vehicles are stabled at Feney Bridge" each night then my comment was that the dead mileage from there to Halifax must be greater than the mileage for the two return journeys. It could well be that someone takes the bus home. They do appear to be a very well run operation around Holmfirth and Marsden
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