mattb7tl
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Posts: 748
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Post by mattb7tl on Apr 17, 2024 19:01:57 GMT 1
What makes you think under franchising there will be enough drivers, especially if a new company takes over. I've seen Stagecoach drivers kicking off and being concerned about being taken over by Metroline under Tranche3. The whole Bradford Interchange fiasco with the way its been handled, might make people think differently How many of those 80 percent are willing to have an even more increased council tax bill on top of what they pay now? What makes you think we would have enough drivers under an EP+? Remember, it wasn't companies that launched the campaign to recruit drivers, it was the authority. They attempted to address the issue, the companies did not! As for taxes, cars provide the least value for money and are the most costly on taxpayers and yet they recieve endless subsidies and result in a rise of taxes. We are rapidly approaching a similar situation as seen in the USA, where authorities no longer generate enough money to maintain themselves because most car infrastructure is net negative.
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Post by shelf81 on Apr 17, 2024 19:58:21 GMT 1
What makes you think under franchising there will be enough drivers, especially if a new company takes over. I've seen Stagecoach drivers kicking off and being concerned about being taken over by Metroline under Tranche3. The whole Bradford Interchange fiasco with the way its been handled, might make people think differently How many of those 80 percent are willing to have an even more increased council tax bill on top of what they pay now? What makes you think we would have enough drivers under an EP+? Remember, it wasn't companies that launched the campaign to recruit drivers, it was the authority. They attempted to address the issue, the companies did not! As for taxes, cars provide the least value for money and are the most costly on taxpayers and yet they recieve endless subsidies and result in a rise of taxes. We are rapidly approaching a similar situation as seen in the USA, where authorities no longer generate enough money to maintain themselves because most car infrastructure is net negative. First have attempted to address the issue, with them doing frequent social media adverts plus the likes of First Glasgow,Bristol,Wales having vehicles repainted for recruitment campaigns alongside most ops improving the advertisements for recruitment on the training vehicles, if WYCA had not decided to launch their own campaign (what First would of known in advance) then it's likely First would of introduced a similar thing in West Yorkshire.
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Post by deerfold on Apr 17, 2024 21:12:37 GMT 1
What makes you think we would have enough drivers under an EP+? Remember, it wasn't companies that launched the campaign to recruit drivers, it was the authority. They attempted to address the issue, the companies did not! As for taxes, cars provide the least value for money and are the most costly on taxpayers and yet they recieve endless subsidies and result in a rise of taxes. We are rapidly approaching a similar situation as seen in the USA, where authorities no longer generate enough money to maintain themselves because most car infrastructure is net negative. First have attempted to address the issue, with them doing frequent social media adverts plus the likes of First Glasgow,Bristol,Wales having vehicles repainted for recruitment campaigns alongside most ops improving the advertisements for recruitment on the training vehicles, if WYCA had not decided to launch their own campaign (what First would of known in advance) then it's likely First would of introduced a similar thing in West Yorkshire. Transdev run quite a lot of adverts for drivers. Why don't First run them as well as WYCA?
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Post by sharksmith on Apr 17, 2024 21:15:49 GMT 1
It doesn't matter which way we go there will still be a shortage of bus drivers.
The idea that bus companies haven't had numerous recruitment drives over recent years is laughable, First have had buses advertising driving roles and Transdev were giving cash incentives.
I've seen regular rolling adverts from all the major players since I left the industry 6 years ago.
Wages will either have to increase or the autonomous bus trial in Edinburgh will need to be a resounding success so they can offer lower paid customer service roles instead.
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pricel
Forum Member
Posts: 464
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Post by pricel on Apr 17, 2024 21:54:17 GMT 1
What makes you think under franchising there will be enough drivers, especially if a new company takes over. I've seen Stagecoach drivers kicking off and being concerned about being taken over by Metroline under Tranche3. The whole Bradford Interchange fiasco with the way its been handled, might make people think differently How many of those 80 percent are willing to have an even more increased council tax bill on top of what they pay now? Council tax bill will increase anyway with or without franchising, as long as the pigeon bopper stays as PM.
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Post by shelf81 on Apr 17, 2024 22:07:52 GMT 1
First have attempted to address the issue, with them doing frequent social media adverts plus the likes of First Glasgow,Bristol,Wales having vehicles repainted for recruitment campaigns alongside most ops improving the advertisements for recruitment on the training vehicles, if WYCA had not decided to launch their own campaign (what First would of known in advance) then it's likely First would of introduced a similar thing in West Yorkshire. Transdev run quite a lot of adverts for drivers. Why don't First run them as well as WYCA? Are First still suffering badly with shortages? Things seemed to have improved over recent months & they are still running social media ads as well.
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Post by shelf81 on Apr 17, 2024 22:10:02 GMT 1
What makes you think under franchising there will be enough drivers, especially if a new company takes over. I've seen Stagecoach drivers kicking off and being concerned about being taken over by Metroline under Tranche3. The whole Bradford Interchange fiasco with the way its been handled, might make people think differently How many of those 80 percent are willing to have an even more increased council tax bill on top of what they pay now? Council tax bill will increase anyway with or without franchising, as long as the pigeon bopper stays as PM. If you think a change of government will stop council tax increases you might be in for a shock after the next election, franchising will mean an even larger increase.
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Post by rwilkes on Apr 18, 2024 10:17:41 GMT 1
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Post by deerfold on Apr 18, 2024 10:48:53 GMT 1
Which makes it odd that it's what the vast majority of European regions do. That article doesn't comment on any fundamentals of franchising.
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Post by rodneytrotter on Apr 18, 2024 11:17:59 GMT 1
I think the money for franchising could be used on other things which should take a bigger priority, social care, children's care, mental health services, special needs education, disability support, tackling youth crime, all of which are very underfunded and neglected.
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Post by stevieinselby on Apr 18, 2024 11:51:15 GMT 1
So franchising is bad because bus use in London has declined as a result of improved rail services, better cycle facilities and reduced road capacity 🤔 The only thing that's "stupid" is using factors that are entirely external to franchising to argue against franchising.
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Post by deerfold on Apr 18, 2024 12:07:57 GMT 1
I think the money for franchising could be used on other things which should take a bigger priority, social care, children's care, mental health services, special needs education, disability support, tackling youth crime, all of which are very underfunded and neglected. All these things are important, and funding all of them results in improved conditions for everyone and a higher tax take. If bus services continue to decline, more people won't be able to get to jobs, to get out to socialise and spend more in businesses.
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Post by martinsfp on Apr 18, 2024 12:46:42 GMT 1
I think the money for franchising could be used on other things which should take a bigger priority, social care, children's care, mental health services, special needs education, disability support, tackling youth crime, all of which are very underfunded and neglected. All these things are important, and funding all of them results in improved conditions for everyone and a higher tax take. If bus services continue to decline, more people won't be able to get to jobs, to get out to socialise and spend more in businesses. Exactly- franchising (done right), allows for strategic transport development that puts the right services in the right places to achieve the region’s wider goals. It’s early days in Manchester, but bus use has increased, and with trials of 24/7 services coming on a couple of routes (with a security guard on board to encourage use after midnight to the early hours) and later/earlier buses on other routes, people can get to more places more cheaply, encouraging economic growth by giving people more opportunities for work and leisure. Bus use doesn’t have to decline. It’s not inevitable. Money spent on franchising (don’t forget ticket revenue goes back into the system too) is an investment in an economically stronger region. …with the caveat that it needs to be done well!
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Post by rwilkes on Apr 18, 2024 13:21:04 GMT 1
The main point is that you can get better services for less cost with partnerships as in Oxford, Reading, Nottingham, Brighton and Leicester. Manchester has 9% growth with an expensive franchising system and Leicester has over 20% growth with a much cheaper partnership system
WYCA, and supporters of franchising generally, do not understand the true costs of franchising as they think that the shareholder dividends can be diverted into bus support whereas they will still be paid but hidden in the leasing. Dividends have to be paid to borrow mony to buy buses. Is like the interest rates on a mortgage costs
When WYCA find the true costs of what they are doing, compounded by the fact they don't know how to do anything, thye will simply do a Beeching on our buses
Many other countries have farnchsing, but as their healthcare is in private ownership they have the spare cash which the UK doesn't. Would we want to porivatise the NHS to pay for buses? Some US cities pay for buses out of parking charges. The more people use the buses, the less parking charges they have to pay for them!
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Post by shelf81 on Apr 18, 2024 13:22:19 GMT 1
All these things are important, and funding all of them results in improved conditions for everyone and a higher tax take. If bus services continue to decline, more people won't be able to get to jobs, to get out to socialise and spend more in businesses. Exactly- franchising (done right), allows for strategic transport development that puts the right services in the right places to achieve the region’s wider goals. It’s early days in Manchester, but bus use has increased, and with trials of 24/7 services coming on a couple of routes (with a security guard on board to encourage use after midnight to the early hours) and later/earlier buses on other routes, people can get to more places more cheaply, encouraging economic growth by giving people more opportunities for work and leisure. Bus use doesn’t have to decline. It’s not inevitable. Money spent on franchising (don’t forget ticket revenue goes back into the system too) is an investment in an economically stronger region. …with the caveat that it needs to be done well! Is the 'growth' in Manchester actual growth created by franchising or just more passengers returning to travelling more often after the 2020-2022 mess, I haven't seen anything yet doing it but I'd be interested to see something comparing the current passenger numbers to pre-pandemic 2019/2020 numbers for a more accurate picture.
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Post by rodneytrotter on Apr 18, 2024 13:36:15 GMT 1
I can only see one thing coming out of franchising and that is WYCA becoming bankrupt and the general public having to bail them out. Not to mention the fact they are incompetent as well, just look at Bradford Interchange, that's been handled appallingly, is that a deliberate tactic by metro/wyca, to try and ensure the bus companies get the blame for Metro's incompetency and not them?
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Post by westriding on Apr 18, 2024 14:23:43 GMT 1
Manchester hasn't entirely been a success according to some social media comments, leading to Andy Burnham making two public apologies so far. The Bolton News today carries a complaint from an Andy Brabin!
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Post by stevieinselby on Apr 18, 2024 15:25:55 GMT 1
The main point is that you can get better services for less cost with partnerships as in Oxford, Reading, Nottingham, Brighton and Leicester. You can get better services for less cost with large municipally owned bus companies 🤔
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Post by shelf81 on Apr 18, 2024 15:38:09 GMT 1
The main point is that you can get better services for less cost with partnerships as in Oxford, Reading, Nottingham, Brighton and Leicester. You can get better services for less cost with large municipally owned bus companies 🤔 Municipally companies unlike franchised/nationalised ones are still expected to run for a profit as a private company following the same rules & laws as the likes of First or Arriva.
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Post by deerfold on Apr 18, 2024 15:39:02 GMT 1
The main point is that you can get better services for less cost with partnerships as in Oxford, Reading, Nottingham, Brighton and Leicester. Manchester has 9% growth with an expensive franchising system and Leicester has over 20% growth with a much cheaper partnership system When are these figures from? The services past my in-laws in Leicester (31, 31A, X3, X7) all have (at best) half the frequency they did pre-Covid during the week, finishing an hour earlier (even earlier for the X3 and X7). Sundays finishing 6 hours earlier, with the half hourly bus route that didn't go into the centre having gone completely. Many other countries have farnchising, but as their healthcare is in private ownership they have the spare cash which the UK doesn't. Would we want to porivatise the NHS to pay for buses? Some US cities pay for buses out of parking charges. The more people use the buses, the less parking charges they have to pay for them! Outside the US which has dire public transport except for within a handful of cities, the developed world largely has healthcare that's easily accessible to their population.
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Post by deerfold on Apr 18, 2024 15:40:51 GMT 1
You can get better services for less cost with large municipally owned bus companies 🤔 Municipally companies unlike franchised/nationalised ones are still expected to run for a profit as a private company following the same rules & laws as the likes of First or Arriva. Though their owners may be happy with a lower dividend.
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Post by rwilkes on Apr 18, 2024 15:41:23 GMT 1
The main point is that you can get better services for less cost with partnerships as in Oxford, Reading, Nottingham, Brighton and Leicester. You can get better services for less cost with large municipally owned bus companies 🤔 Municipal ownership is a much cheaper model than franchising especially if you can bring in local loyalty as they have at Lothian Buses. They lease the bus usually so dividends still have to be paid Nottingham and Reading are stil deregulated and Nottingham gets competiton form Trent and Stagecoach, so its a good recommendation tha they do so well. The council have no say of how they are run, although they could sack the management if they wished But many municipals ahve gone by the wayside because if they are politically accountable its hard to make necessary cuts or fares increases. So Investment goes by the wayside. Blackburn and Rossendale buses were all sheds by the time they sold up. There is a letter in Buses saying that ridership is up 9% but costs going up faster than revenue . Burnham has admitted it is much more expensive than he envisaged and he didn't relaise that he would need bus lanes to make it work! So we will see if WYCA can do a better job. Start putting money by for your council taxes in a few years time.
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Post by rodneytrotter on Apr 18, 2024 15:41:39 GMT 1
I see on Brabin's campaign she says she's a bus user, she's on a salary of £105,000 a year lol, no way she is a bus user, who would be on that salary? Plus with all the photo opportunties she goes too, no way she is a bus user.
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Post by rodneytrotter on Apr 18, 2024 15:43:24 GMT 1
You can get better services for less cost with large municipally owned bus companies 🤔 Municipal ownership is a much cheaper model than franchising especially if you can bring in local loyalty as they have at Lothian Buses. They lease the bus usually so dividends still have to be paid Nottingham and Reading are stil deregulated and Nottingham gets competiton form Trent and Stagecoach, so its a good recommendation tha they do so well. The council have no say of how they are run, although they could sack the management if they wished But many municipals ahve gone by the wayside because if they are politically accountable its hard to make necessary cuts or fares increases. So Investment goes by the wayside. Blackburn and Rossendale buses were all sheds by the time they sold up. There is a letter in Buses saying that ridership is up 9% but costs going up faster than revenue . Burnham has admitted it is much more expensive than he envisaged and he didn't relaise that he would need bus lanes to make it work! So we will see if WYCA can do a better job. Start putting money by for your council taxes in a few years time. I think Burnham, has just used franchising as a political game/pawn, than rather a genuine need, to try and help people, and try and improve transport across the area and I think Brabin has the same intentions
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mattb7tl
Forum Member
Streetlites 🛐
Posts: 748
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Post by mattb7tl on Apr 18, 2024 15:52:49 GMT 1
I'm confused as to why people who support an EP+, use Leicester, as a good example? I mean the statistics are quite laughable and prove bus priority isn't the answer. It's incredible that all those bus lanes have only increased punctuality by 2%... It also highlights that private operators haven't matched the investment made by their authority. The bee networks punctuality reports are better because they have introduced a boat load of off peak journeys which average out to create a more 'punctual' service. Leicester can't even do that, but whose surprised since one of their main operators is infamous for a lack of service reinvestment and poor evening services
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