51/52 Proposals

[kendall17]

Taken from cllr Cohen for Alwoodley

FIRST BUS NEWS & request for feedback

I’ve received the below (please do ensure you pass comments onto First - not just here on the group).

Dear Cllr

As part of our ongoing review to continue improving punctuality, we have introduced regular timetable updates on the 51/52 but the service has continued to provide an inconsistent performance for our customers.

Whilst we will of course continue to promote highway interventions with the Combined Authority and Leeds City Council to give bus customers better priority to bypass traffic congestion and enable more dependable journey times, we are now planning a new approach to the route.

From Sunday April 2, we plan to split the cross-city 51/52 route so the service operates separately i.e. between Morley and Leeds & Moor Allerton and Leeds.

We are confident that this would improve punctuality as this would remove any traffic impact in the south of Leeds from Meanwood, Weetwood, Moortown and Moor Allerton connections and would also minimise any impact of city centre delays.

We are now advancing plans with the Combined Authority to introduce this change which would encompass the following:

Route would be unchanged except in Leeds city centre. Into Leeds the service will operate on Vicar Lane (North) as normal but then turn left to terminate on Eastgate.

Towards Moor Allerton the service will depart from Eastgate and then via the roundabout, Headrow and onto the normal route.

We plan to use the Victoria D stop on Eastgate

Route numbers will be 38 (as per old 51) and 39 (as per old 52)

For interchange to Morley, the new 38/39 Moor Allerton service will start and finish on Eastgate as will the 51/52 Morley service
Frequency will be unchanged for now:

Monday to Saturday daytime 2 buses per hour each on 51 & 52 (combined 4 buses per hour). We will monitor capacity and review frequency as per demand and as soon as resource allows

We will introduce a through-ticket for these specific services so no-one who needs to makes the Morley-Moor Allerton connection is penalised

The proposal has been shared with WYCA.

The change is planned for formal registration in mid-February and we are therefore seeking comments at the earliest opportunity and certainly before the end of January.

Queries should be directed to [e-mail] We will be speaking with customers along the route at stops and on bus to gather feedback.

I would be grateful for your support in raising this plan with constituents and encouraging feedback.

We will of course keep you updated. If we can provide any further information, please do let me know.


Brandon Jones (he/him)
Head of External Relations
First Bus

[peteleeds]

Does make you wonder would it not be easier to terminate in bus station. 51/52 could come in down side of market and numbers 38/39 via Eastgate. Lot nicer place to interchange as protection from weather isn't best on eastgate

[kendall17]

Jan 11, 2023 15:04:17 GMT 1 peteleeds said:

Does make you wonder would it not be easier to terminate in bus station. 51/52 could come in down side of market and numbers 38/39 via Eastgate. Lot nicer place to interchange as protection from weather isn't best on eastgate

Nicer, yes. Costlier for First though.

[allrounder]

Great idea

[nic]

Jan 11, 2023 16:45:59 GMT 1 kendall17 said:

Jan 11, 2023 15:04:17 GMT 1 peteleeds said:

Does make you wonder would it not be easier to terminate in bus station. 51/52 could come in down side of market and numbers 38/39 via Eastgate. Lot nicer place to interchange as protection from weather isn't best on eastgate

Nicer, yes. Costlier for First though.

Why costlier? It's literally 30 more seconds and in the bus station. Unless there is a charge for buses in the bus station.

[Deleted]

Jan 12, 2023 0:00:25 GMT 1 nic said:

Jan 11, 2023 16:45:59 GMT 1 kendall17 said:

Nicer, yes. Costlier for First though.

Why costlier? It's literally 30 more seconds and in the bus station. Unless there is a charge for buses in the bus station.

Yes Metro charge a departure fee (about 60p per departure), also as your suggestion routes 51/2 use York Street to get to the Bus Station, as traffic can be bad on that section it would take alot longer than 30 seconds for most of the day.

I Think Eastgate is the best option for the time being, although if/when we start to see routes return to pre-covid frequencies i could see it possibly needing to move again, as that used to be a busy area for buses

[nic]

Jan 12, 2023 0:50:24 GMT 1 @cp2012 said:

Jan 12, 2023 0:00:25 GMT 1 nic said:

Why costlier? It's literally 30 more seconds and in the bus station. Unless there is a charge for buses in the bus station.

Yes Metro charge a departure fee (about 60p per departure), also as your suggestion routes 51/2 use York Street to get to the Bus Station, as traffic can be bad on that section it would take alot longer than 30 seconds for most of the day.

I Think Eastgate is the best option for the time being, although if/when we start to see routes return to pre-covid frequencies i could see it possibly needing to move again, as that used to be a busy area for buses

You learn something new everyday. Seems excessive tbh. I'm surprised they have the 6/8 terminate at Leeds bus station tbh but different subject.

30 seconds was a throw away statement as it is approx a minute to walk. If the council, god the useless incapable council, but none the less council and traffic management actually did traffic light flow properly it would work. With correct timings between departures and arrivals (15 minute Frequency, 10 minute dwell in LCBS) it could work. I'm surprised they are not suggesting looping it round the centre the 51/52 and 38/39 over an Eastgate terminus. 

[Deleted]

Jan 12, 2023 17:17:50 GMT 1 nic said:

Jan 12, 2023 0:50:24 GMT 1 @cp2012 said:

Yes Metro charge a departure fee (about 60p per departure), also as your suggestion routes 51/2 use York Street to get to the Bus Station, as traffic can be bad on that section it would take alot longer than 30 seconds for most of the day.

I Think Eastgate is the best option for the time being, although if/when we start to see routes return to pre-covid frequencies i could see it possibly needing to move again, as that used to be a busy area for buses

You learn something new everyday. Seems excessive tbh. I'm surprised they have the 6/8 terminate at Leeds bus station tbh but different subject.

30 seconds was a throw away statement as it is approx a minute to walk. If the council, god the useless incapable council, but none the less council and traffic management actually did traffic light flow properly it would work. With correct timings between departures and arrivals (15 minute Frequency, 10 minute dwell in LCBS) it could work. I'm surprised they are not suggesting looping it round the centre the 51/52 and 38/39 over an Eastgate terminus. 

The prices Leeds (& W Yorks as whole) charge are actually fairly cheap, most other areas charge closer to £1-£1.20

I Agree with you over the poor traffic flow but it's the same across all of the city centre - that's probably why they've not had both routes doing a city centre loop as it would take more drivers/vehicles.

[westyorkshirebus]

People in Leeds are very much used to local city buses not using the bus station. If they served the bus station, no doubt it’d depart near empty and then pick up loads on street anyway

[dwarfer1979]

Jan 12, 2023 18:10:50 GMT 1 @cp2012 said:

The prices Leeds (& W Yorks as whole) charge are actually fairly cheap, most other areas charge closer to £1-£1.20

I Agree with you over the poor traffic flow but it's the same across all of the city centre - that's probably why they've not had both routes doing a city centre loop as it would take more drivers/vehicles.

Not really, 60p is about par for a bus station departure charge generally. Greater Manchester is around 70p so it may be competitive against neighbouring PTEs but it sits around most looking more widely. Even our most expensive charges in the shire counties are still below £1 per departure, the only bus station I have ever seen above that was National Express from Chorlton Street which was charging several pounds per departure a number of years ago (which probably explains why Transdev run from outside) but local authorities don't get that high. It was only a couple of years ago that anything above 50p per departure was considered expensive.

[Deleted]

Jan 13, 2023 9:09:54 GMT 1 dwarfer1979 said:

Jan 12, 2023 18:10:50 GMT 1 @cp2012 said:

The prices Leeds (& W Yorks as whole) charge are actually fairly cheap, most other areas charge closer to £1-£1.20

I Agree with you over the poor traffic flow but it's the same across all of the city centre - that's probably why they've not had both routes doing a city centre loop as it would take more drivers/vehicles.

Not really, 60p is about par for a bus station departure charge generally. Greater Manchester is around 70p so it may be competitive against neighbouring PTEs but it sits around most looking more widely. Even our most expensive charges in the shire counties are still below £1 per departure, the only bus station I have ever seen above that was National Express from Chorlton Street which was charging several pounds per departure a number of years ago (which probably explains why Transdev run from outside) but local authorities don't get that high. It was only a couple of years ago that anything above 50p per departure was considered expensive.

Ah i didn't know about the Greater Manchester prices, the ones i was comparing it against was Preston (85p) Glasgow (£1.05) Exeter (£1.10) Edinburgh (£1.18) Bath (£1.70) - The most expensive one i know about is Bristol at £4.19

[mattb7tl]

Kind of off topic but it is so lovely to see first attempt to improve their routes, it has been a while. Not sure what changed in the last couple of months, but I’m really appreciating their increased efforts.

[nic]

Would you call it an improvement on through traffic? They clearly have the data available to hand that indicates that there is quite a number of north-south routings. Otherwise highlighting the fact they will accept through tickets wouldn't of been put within the email body.

To me a good way of improving routes is to have plenty absorption time at either end. I get it is not an efficient use of resource having a bus sat at either end of the route for 10 minutes but that is crucial to maintaining a on time performance. I also get that just because a bus departs on time at terminus delays do happen across the whole route but still firmly believe that is best way to improve performance.

Will this be the first in "improvements" in the cross city routes actually using the city centre as terminus. 2/12/13/3 combo. If anything it's the East to West routes that need looking at - 50/50A, 4, 16.

[stantheman]

It’s a good job Brandon Jones put “he/him”, I’d never have known otherwise.

[kendall17]

Jan 17, 2023 9:06:14 GMT 1 stantheman said:

It’s a good job Brandon Jones put “he/him”, I’d never have known otherwise.

🙄 narrow-mindedness at it's finest.

[kommie123]

Jan 17, 2023 9:56:42 GMT 1 kendall17 said:

Jan 17, 2023 9:06:14 GMT 1 stantheman said:

It’s a good job Brandon Jones put “he/him”, I’d never have known otherwise.

🙄 narrow-mindedness at it's finest.

Wokeness is indeed narrow minded!

[stantheman]

Apologies, I didn’t mean to take this thread off topic, I should have known better.

[yorkslad]

I'll be honest, I was more interested in their choice of route numbers!

And, perhaps, some of the routes could do with being chopped up if it improves reliability. The only issues for Leeds would be that it's difficult to do a loop everywhere in the city centre, and it's difficult to turn round in the city centre with the recent changes. I'd certainly look at the 4/4G, 16/16A and 19/19A. Subject for a different thread, perhaps... I'll start one.

[nic]

Jan 17, 2023 22:13:07 GMT 1 yorkslad said:

I'll be honest, I was more interested in their choice of route numbers!

And, perhaps, some of the routes could do with being chopped up if it improves reliability. The only issues for Leeds would be that it's difficult to do a loop everywhere in the city centre, and it's difficult to turn round in the city centre with the recent changes. I'd certainly look at the 4/4G, 16/16A and 19/19A. Subject for a different thread, perhaps... I'll start one.

You've got the council to thank for that. Idiots lot of them.

[nic]

Any update on this?

[peteleeds]

Jan 17, 2023 22:13:07 GMT 1 yorkslad said:

I'll be honest, I was more interested in their choice of route numbers!

And, perhaps, some of the routes could do with being chopped up if it improves reliability. The only issues for Leeds would be that it's difficult to do a loop everywhere in the city centre, and it's difficult to turn round in the city centre with the recent changes. I'd certainly look at the 4/4G, 16/16A and 19/19A. Subject for a different thread, perhaps... I'll start one.

Only issue with severing cross city links is some are really useful like serving st james or Chapel allerton hospitals

[ladyreb]

Can’t believe this is happening. What about those people who travel from Moor Allerton to Morley ?? So I now have to catch 2 buses and add more time onto my travel . I’m a shift worker also, so start at 7:30am some days and finish at 9:30pm others. I now have to wait in town at night on my own. I may have to leave my job because of this. My Anxiety is through the roof .

[joseph]

Mar 31, 2023 1:11:43 GMT 1 ladyreb said:

Can’t believe this is happening. What about those people who travel from Moor Allerton to Morley ?? So I now have to catch 2 buses and add more time onto my travel . I’m a shift worker also, so start at 7:30am some days and finish at 9:30pm others. I now have to wait in town at night on my own. I may have to leave my job because of this. My Anxiety is through the roof .

No offence but what about those who need to change in town anyway and need the 51/2 to be a lot more reliable so they can make connections for work? I live in Beeston and mostly work in the Richmond Hill area but am frequently assigned to cover elsewhere like everybody else in the company, so my operating area where I am asked to cover also includes Harewood/Alwoodley, Wetherby, Whinmoor/Seacroft, Cross Gates, Chapel Allerton and part of Meanwood. Would love to have a through bus but that would be asking for reliability to suffer. Service 1 which is nearest to my home is so unreliable that I only catch it if I can't be bothered walking down the 99 steps to Elland Road, and I'll only catch a 51/2 if I notice people suddenly start to move for it, even the P&R can be unreliable but it's a dam site better than the 1, 51 and 52! 

[ladyreb]

Mar 31, 2023 5:32:30 GMT 1 joseph said:

Mar 31, 2023 1:11:43 GMT 1 ladyreb said:

Can’t believe this is happening. What about those people who travel from Moor Allerton to Morley ?? So I now have to catch 2 buses and add more time onto my travel . I’m a shift worker also, so start at 7:30am some days and finish at 9:30pm others. I now have to wait in town at night on my own. I may have to leave my job because of this. My Anxiety is through the roof .

No offence but what about those who need to change in town anyway and need the 51/2 to be a lot more reliable so they can make connections for work? I live in Beeston and mostly work in the Richmond Hill area but am frequently assigned to cover elsewhere like everybody else in the company, so my operating area where I am asked to cover also includes Harewood/Alwoodley, Wetherby, Whinmoor/Seacroft, Cross Gates, Chapel Allerton and part of Meanwood. Would love to have a through bus but that would be asking for reliability to suffer. Service 1 which is nearest to my home is so unreliable that I only catch it if I can't be bothered walking down the 99 steps to Elland Road, and I'll only catch a 51/2 if I notice people suddenly start to move for it, even the P&R can be unreliable but it's a dam site better than the 1, 51 and 52! 

I’m just having a rant Joseph. I’ve been very lucky for the last 10 years with having a direct bus to work. I know it makes the service unreliable, but once I was on it , that was it. I’m worried about being in town alone at 10pm due to an incident happening to me .

[edmundwells]

Mar 31, 2023 7:28:06 GMT 1 ladyreb said:

I’m worried about being in town alone at 10pm due to an incident happening to me .

If it helps, both 38/39 and 51/2 will use the same stop at the bottom of Eastgate, and that location is far enough away from any idiots - drunken or otherwise. There'll be others waiting for the bus too.