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Post by selbybus on Oct 5, 2022 14:32:36 GMT 1
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Post by adam on Oct 5, 2022 19:59:33 GMT 1
Just spotted the reader on 1941
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Post by stantheman on Oct 5, 2022 22:09:29 GMT 1
Noticed this on 1892 earlier when I was on the 140. Wondered what it was!
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Post by guyarab on Oct 6, 2022 9:34:26 GMT 1
I opened the link and noticed the ambiguous wording of the instructions; it reads as though the driver uses hers/his own credit/debit card: Simply hop on the bus and tap on with your driver using a credit/debit card or with Google Pay or Apple Pay… |
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Post by mark51953 on Oct 7, 2022 18:43:28 GMT 1
Some of selbys 1500s have been done too
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Post by stantheman on Oct 8, 2022 20:47:45 GMT 1
What is this actually going to achieve?
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Oct 8, 2022 20:53:49 GMT 1
What is this actually going to achieve? I think it is an attempt to speed up boarding times? First did the same thing here and most people don't even know that it exists  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2022 21:38:15 GMT 1
What is this actually going to achieve? I Think the long term goal in West Yorkshire is for all vehicles to have them & you just tap on/off with daily & weekly caps regardless of operator similar to London,possibly with the idea of replacing Bus only M-Cards with it. |
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Post by jonny182 on Oct 9, 2022 19:42:42 GMT 1
What is this actually going to achieve? I Think the long term goal in West Yorkshire is for all vehicles to have them & you just tap on/off with daily & weekly caps regardless of operator similar to London,possibly with the idea of replacing Bus only M-Cards with it. I hope the phyiscal M-Cards are kept. There are issues with the tap-on-tap-off even in London on the tube/train (flat fare on the bus and trams) with your bank cards with fares not correctly being charged or funny trips/routes being added to your account. I have gone back to using Oyster season tickets when I work in London since I know exaclty what I have paid for and I hope the season tickets stay on the physical M-Card like those in Bristol, York, Oxford. Trouble is with the tap-on-tap-off is when the readers do not work when alighting or the ticket machine reader stops working then you are charged an incorrect fare by default and it takes admin time to get a refund. I think the choice of a proper physical M-Card pay as you go along with the full range of weekly, monthly, quarterly and annual season tickets should remain. I've experienced loads of issues M-Card mobile app QR code also not scanning properly for many differnet passengers on all operators ticket machines, not to mention the time wasted waiting for passengers to load the app, lost data signal or phones just don't work. |
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Post by selbybus on Nov 14, 2022 17:35:46 GMT 1
Tap on Tap off will go live on all Arriva Yorkshire services from Monday 21st November.
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Post by joshben on Nov 18, 2022 19:55:51 GMT 1
Tap on Tap off will go live on all Arriva Yorkshire services from Monday 21st November. Pink posters saying to "Tap off here" being added to buses, some in awkward looking places for drivers needing to look down the bus! |
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Post by Penfold on Nov 18, 2022 20:41:21 GMT 1
Tap on Tap off will go live on all Arriva Yorkshire services from Monday 21st November. Pink posters saying to "Tap off here" being added to buses, some in awkward looking places for drivers needing to look down the bus! Yes one was removed earlier for me not having a clear view down the bus ! Penfold |
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Post by pebbles on Nov 19, 2022 14:23:34 GMT 1
Pink posters saying to "Tap off here" being added to buses, some in awkward looking places for drivers needing to look down the bus! Yes one was removed earlier for me not having a clear view down the bus ! Penfold I ripped one off 1519 cos people kept catching it with their shoulders and it was hanging off snapped! |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Nov 19, 2022 16:47:57 GMT 1
While it has merits if we are not sure exactly how many buses we are riding in 1 day, I feel it would be wrong to discontinue paper tickets. We should remain allowed to pay by contactless (even if cash is discontinued) and scan our paper tickets on the bus upon entry.
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Post by deerfold on Nov 19, 2022 20:13:51 GMT 1
While it has merits if we are not sure exactly how many buses we are riding in 1 day, I feel it would be wrong to discontinue paper tickets. We should remain allowed to pay by contactless (even if cash is discontinued) and scan our paper tickets on the bus upon entry. Any particular reason? |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Nov 26, 2022 14:14:58 GMT 1
While it has merits if we are not sure exactly how many buses we are riding in 1 day, I feel it would be wrong to discontinue paper tickets. We should remain allowed to pay by contactless (even if cash is discontinued) and scan our paper tickets on the bus upon entry. Any particular reason? Various reasons really. For one thing, we know what we have paid for. Also, it avoids when leaving the bus having to retrieve our contactless card - which someone might then steal from us. We also would not have to worry about the bus company systems mischarging us for our collection of journeys. To be totally blunt, I consider tap on tap off to be modern technology gone mad!  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2022 16:40:31 GMT 1
Various reasons really. For one thing, we know what we have paid for. Also, it avoids when leaving the bus having to retrieve our contactless card - which someone might then steal from us. We also would not have to worry about the bus company systems mischarging us for our collection of journeys. To be totally blunt, I consider tap on tap off to be modern technology gone mad! For Day/Weekly tickets you don't need paper tickets when they could easily be bought either on Smartcard or via the APP. Removing the smartcard might be more controversial but Trent Barton have done & Bluestar are the first of the Go Ahead group to stop doing 'The Key',so if more operators make the move it might get less controversial over time. Over knowing how much you paid for,if they go for a flat fare system then it should be easy to work out (we are almost there tbh,with the £2 single cap/£4.50 day). I Could understand the fear of someone stealing a contactless card in some areas, but I Don't think it lead to an increase in thefts in London after it got introduced there so i think it should be reasonably ok here. |
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Nov 26, 2022 18:34:38 GMT 1
Where on the bus are they installing them? Hopefully not where Transdev did a long time ago, although they have never been used. Why install something and not use it? In London, sensibly the readers are where you would expect a ticket machine to be, so that the driver can check what is happening. Transdev have them on the grab rail, where the 1st seat is, behind the driver, so the driver won't be able to supervise, and/or you will have to explain that you are going to use the tap on machine. Presumably in West Yorkshire, as in London on buses they will only be tap in, not tap out.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Nov 26, 2022 22:41:33 GMT 1
Where on the bus are they installing them? Hopefully not where Transdev did a long time ago, although they have never been used. Why install something and not use it? In London, sensibly the readers are where you would expect a ticket machine to be, so that the driver can check what is happening. Transdev have them on the grab rail, where the 1st seat is, behind the driver, so the driver won't be able to supervise, and/or you will have to explain that you are going to use the tap on machine. Presumably in West Yorkshire, as in London on buses they will only be tap in, not tap out. Tap on Tap off has been installed on all the major operators in Leicester including fare capping between operators. On this system you would tap on your card on the ticket machine by the driver whilst you would normally tap off on the separate reader (in Leicester those are installed on a stanchion either immediately by the door or behind the cab) though this can be done on the ticket machine if a tap off reader is inoperative or not fitted (Arriva, First & Centrebus all have seperate readers whilst Kinch also have a ToTo system which just uses the ticket machine). If you have a flat fare across the entire network then you don't need the Tap off element (National Express have this in the West Midlands). Tap On Tap Off capping tends to max out with weekly fares, there becomes too much calculation to go beyond that so there will always be a need for season ticket purchase by other means for those passengers in a position to pay up front for monthly or longer tickets. Tap On Tap Off will never fully replace on bus (or off bus) purchase of some tickets as you can never offer all passenger or ticket offers without the passenger identifying their need to the driver before travel (age based discounts or special deals for instance). I don't think I have ever heard of anyone having their card stolen having tapped off whilst disembarking, it is no more likely to happen than whilst paying or boarding or in a shop. The fare capping is all done in the back office by a specialist banking supplier, most schemes seem to use the same provider (as most use the same ticket machines and they are a recommended supplier) so they are very experienced in setting these schemes up. It is somewhat complicated & time consuming to set up all the products to ensure the capping works properly - if it is done properly then all relevant products will be in the system so it will go single, return, day, multi-day & week (and if relevant, single operator & multi operator products so if you only use one operator you cap on their fares but if you use a second operator then either the multi-operator product or the other operators product kicks in depending on what is cheaper). As long as you use the same card the data is sent back to the scheme manager where the data is processed and it works out the correct fare to be paid, or identify that the cap has been hit in which case no more is deducted but the trip is recorded. This can all be checked in an online portal (operators generally have links on their website to allow you to access your information) and this aspect seems to work faultlessly as we don't seem to get any complaints that the capping hasn't worked correctly. The main issues that you do tend to see with ToTo schemes are: 1. People accidentally tapping on when they didn't mean to. This comes from two areas, firstly a lot of passengers seem to put their cards on the machine before they ask the driver for their ticket (without tap on then this just means the card has to be removed before the ticket can be issue but with tap on then a fare will be taken before the interaction occurs) and this does seem to be a difficult message to get across. The other area is people who use their smartphones as contactless payment more generally but have a mobile ticket on their phone for the bus. As the Contactless reader tends to activate faster than the QR Code scanner that reads mobile tickets then a Tap on will be read before the mobile ticket is (to avoid this passengers just need to turn off the contactless payment aspect whilst boarding the bus and passengers seem to understand this more quickly once explained). 2. People forgetting to tap off. In this case you will be charged to the end of the route so on urban networks this is rarely noticed as fare stages are quite coarse (so there are few fares to get wrong) and making a second trip will tend to correct onto the daily cap anyway. 3. You can only run Tap on Tap off on adult fares, there is no way to tie a card to a reduced fare scale so all child/student etc fares have to be paid for conventionally and this can be confused by passengers who think the ToTo will know what age they are or drivers who advise the use of ToTo for inappropriate passengers. 4. Cards being blocked as their are insufficient funds to pay for trips already made, this applies as much to standard Contactless as it does to Tap On Tap Off. You would be surprised how many people are both running their payment accounts so tight to zero that there isn't enough to cover a single bus fare but still use it casually without worrying how much money is in the account. SmartCards are something of a dated technology, a lot of operators were moving away as the cost to upgrade smartcard systems to work on new ticket machines was often uneconomic. We dropped our smartcard products when we switched to Contactless capable ticket machines as our smartcards were of an older (non-ITSO - ITSO being the scheme that ensured that smartcards were compatible with all ticket machines & so operators) design which was not supported by the newer machines we switched to. The cost of upgrading to ITSO, both replacing the cards, the cost of programming and particularly registering it with the ITSO scheme ran into tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds (as each product had to be separately registered) which just wasn't commercially viable. I suspect this was the same issue for TrentBarton as their Mango was pre-ITSO and the switch to a mobile app happened around the time they switched to Contactless (& they were slightly later than many probably because of this). The Go-Ahead Key would have been ITSO so their switch away won't have been due to that though with the changing in technology, both Contactless & Mobile apps for instance, the usage of SmartCard products may be falling to the point where some of them are no longer generating enough demand to justify the fees necessary to keep all of them active. |
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Nov 26, 2022 23:41:41 GMT 1
If in Leicester, unlike London, but like the redundant and useless Transdev ones, some readers are installed behind the driver's cab, where the driver cannot see them, how does anyone know whether a passenger has bothered to pay or not?
Your point 3. - In West Yorkshire the daily and weekly fares are now exactly the same. £4.50 max per day. Double that for 2 days, triple for 3 etc, unless you travel after 9:30 and then a weekly fare is only £22.10 instead of £31.50, assuming that you travel on a bus more than ones, 7 days a week always after 9:30, which is probably quite rare. Even the annual pass at £944.90 doesn't really save you much unless you travel on a bus more than once 7 days a week 365 days a year and before 9:30. Once you factor in holidays, not working or travelling weekends etc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2022 9:19:04 GMT 1
If in Leicester, unlike London, but like the redundant and useless Transdev ones, some readers are installed behind the driver's cab, where the driver cannot see them, how does anyone know whether a passenger has bothered to pay or not? Your point 3. - In West Yorkshire the daily and weekly fares are now exactly the same. £4.50 max per day. Double that for 2 days, triple for 3 etc, unless you travel after 9:30 and then a weekly fare is only £22.10 instead of £31.50, assuming that you travel on a bus more than ones, 7 days a week always after 9:30, which is probably quite rare. Even the annual pass at £944.90 doesn't really save you much unless you travel on a bus more than once 7 days a week 365 days a year and before 9:30. Once you factor in holidays, not working or travelling weekends etc. As I understand it from Dwarfer 1979's post & Arriva's website you have to tap on at the machine by the drivers cab so they would no you have paid & the other machine is only used for tapping off, not that I have actually seen anyone use the new system yet. |
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Post by joshben on Nov 27, 2022 11:00:09 GMT 1
Just to note, some of the public seem to be using it but most using paper or mobile weekly tickets not knowing that TOTO can calculate weekly fares!
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Nov 27, 2022 11:19:21 GMT 1
If in Leicester, unlike London, but like the redundant and useless Transdev ones, some readers are installed behind the driver's cab, where the driver cannot see them, how does anyone know whether a passenger has bothered to pay or not? Your point 3. - In West Yorkshire the daily and weekly fares are now exactly the same. £4.50 max per day. Double that for 2 days, triple for 3 etc, unless you travel after 9:30 and then a weekly fare is only £22.10 instead of £31.50, assuming that you travel on a bus more than ones, 7 days a week always after 9:30, which is probably quite rare. Even the annual pass at £944.90 doesn't really save you much unless you travel on a bus more than once 7 days a week 365 days a year and before 9:30. Once you factor in holidays, not working or travelling weekends etc. As I understand it from Dwarfer 1979's post & Arriva's website you have to tap on at the machine by the drivers cab so they would no you have paid & the other machine is only used for tapping off, not that I have actually seen anyone use the new system yet. Yes, you always Tap On on the ticket machine next to the driver so the driver knows everyone has 'paid'. The reader behind the driver is purely for tapping off (I'm not sure these readers are even programmed to register as boarding though I'm sure they could if you wanted) as it speeds alighting (you can tap off before the bus comes to a stop in theory) as you don't need to reach back to the cab, and across boarding passengers, which significantly slows the alighting process (Kinch doesn't have tap off readers and just use the machine and it is noticeably slower alighting using this). If your weekly cap is just 7 x the daily cap (a very weird thing to do given few passengers will travel 7 days a week every week so you effectively don't have a weekly discount - unless this is the result of the £2 fare cap only affecting day tickets as will probably also happen with the national scheme if it happens) then the programming is easier as you only need to set daily caps in effect. Not being involved in the Yorkshire scheme, and only peripherally with the Leicester roll out, I don't know what changes are being made, or need to be made, to Arriva as part of the scheme (either to make the system work better or just because the review this created highlighted things that needed to be changed) but I do know in Leicester we removed a peak day ticket & just standardised on the off-peak price for all day on one route which had a route specific ticket as it couldn't be set up by our small commercial team - Arriva with a larger team with specialists & IT support may be able to handle programming required. |
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Post by jonny182 on Nov 27, 2022 22:56:58 GMT 1
As I understand it from Dwarfer 1979's post & Arriva's website you have to tap on at the machine by the drivers cab so they would no you have paid & the other machine is only used for tapping off, not that I have actually seen anyone use the new system yet. Yes, you always Tap On on the ticket machine next to the driver so the driver knows everyone has 'paid'. The reader behind the driver is purely for tapping off (I'm not sure these readers are even programmed to register as boarding though I'm sure they could if you wanted) as it speeds alighting (you can tap off before the bus comes to a stop in theory) as you don't need to reach back to the cab, and across boarding passengers, which significantly slows the alighting process (Kinch doesn't have tap off readers and just use the machine and it is noticeably slower alighting using this). If your weekly cap is just 7 x the daily cap (a very weird thing to do given few passengers will travel 7 days a week every week so you effectively don't have a weekly discount - unless this is the result of the £2 fare cap only affecting day tickets as will probably also happen with the national scheme if it happens) then the programming is easier as you only need to set daily caps in effect. Not being involved in the Yorkshire scheme, and only peripherally with the Leicester roll out, I don't know what changes are being made, or need to be made, to Arriva as part of the scheme (either to make the system work better or just because the review this created highlighted things that needed to be changed) but I do know in Leicester we removed a peak day ticket & just standardised on the off-peak price for all day on one route which had a route specific ticket as it couldn't be set up by our small commercial team - Arriva with a larger team with specialists & IT support may be able to handle programming required. It make take a while to mature. When Oyster was first introduced, there were no weekly or monthly tickets, these were still on paper travelcards and the PAYG did not have a weekly or monthly cap. Now contactless is capped per calendar week/calendar month, it is still more useful to buy a travelcard if you want your weekly / monthly ticket to start on any other day than Monday to Sunday or 1st to last day of the month. Plus with the Oyster system only running on an 8-bit computer system, there are many fare anomolies and a lot of fares work out cheaper on Oyster than bank card (and a few vice versa). Re Nottingham Mango cards, I believe these were withdrawn in favour of the Robin Hood Smart cards? A multi-operator card for all modes of transport including trains, trams and buses. Still having a smart card option makes sense if you wish to start your weekly/monthly/annual or quarterly ticket on different days of the week/month. Also, the number of times the phone apps crash/phones lose signal/tickets not loading, having the NFC smartcards staying as a valid ticketing solution is a good idea into the future as the NFC card does not require its own power source. |
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Post by jonny182 on Nov 27, 2022 23:03:46 GMT 1
Yes, you always Tap On on the ticket machine next to the driver so the driver knows everyone has 'paid'. The reader behind the driver is purely for tapping off (I'm not sure these readers are even programmed to register as boarding though I'm sure they could if you wanted) as it speeds alighting (you can tap off before the bus comes to a stop in theory) as you don't need to reach back to the cab, and across boarding passengers, which significantly slows the alighting process (Kinch doesn't have tap off readers and just use the machine and it is noticeably slower alighting using this). If your weekly cap is just 7 x the daily cap (a very weird thing to do given few passengers will travel 7 days a week every week so you effectively don't have a weekly discount - unless this is the result of the £2 fare cap only affecting day tickets as will probably also happen with the national scheme if it happens) then the programming is easier as you only need to set daily caps in effect. Not being involved in the Yorkshire scheme, and only peripherally with the Leicester roll out, I don't know what changes are being made, or need to be made, to Arriva as part of the scheme (either to make the system work better or just because the review this created highlighted things that needed to be changed) but I do know in Leicester we removed a peak day ticket & just standardised on the off-peak price for all day on one route which had a route specific ticket as it couldn't be set up by our small commercial team - Arriva with a larger team with specialists & IT support may be able to handle programming required. As an experienced computer and integration developer and having a number of years' experience coding/programming bus and train schedules/fare and ticketing solutions for large operators, from my experience it make take a while to mature. When Oyster was first introduced, there were no weekly or monthly tickets, these were still on paper travelcards and the PAYG did not have a weekly or monthly cap. Now contactless is capped per calendar week/calendar month, it is still more useful to buy a travelcard if you want your weekly / monthly ticket to start on any other day than Monday to Sunday or 1st to last day of the month. Plus with the Oyster system only running on an 8-bit computer system, there are many fare anomolies and a lot of fares work out cheaper on Oyster than bank card (and a few vice versa). Re Nottingham Mango cards, I believe these were withdrawn in favour of the Robin Hood Smart cards? A multi-operator card for all modes of transport including trains, trams and buses. Still having a smart card option makes sense if you wish to start your weekly/monthly/annual or quarterly ticket on different days of the week/month. Also, the number of times the phone apps crash/phones lose signal/tickets not loading, having the NFC smartcards staying as a valid ticketing solution is a good idea into the future as the NFC card does not require its own power source. |
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