mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Mar 10, 2024 17:46:03 GMT 1
Sometimes you have to lose money to make more. First doesn't understand this and they are extremely short sighted. Cutting that journey will have a knock on effect. It's a peak time journey. Once that journey is gone people won't be able to make it home after work, which will force them into getting a car and once that happens? Those people won't be supporting that service during other times of day.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2024 17:51:45 GMT 1
If a service ain't commercially viable then how do you expect it to run? Clearly some of the services that was cut by the big operators, if they was viable other operators would have taken them on, and WYCA/Metro don't seem bothered, I don't see it as no big loss. All companies their main aim is to make money, why would they keep running a service that loses money? No logical person or business would do that.
Halifax isn't just the only area, to get cuts you realise that right? Plenty of cuts in Wakefield and the five towns area.
Also, this partnership twitter page is only posting their side of the story? If this service is losing money, why should they keep running it? First, just like Transdev are there to make money.
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Post by shelf81 on Mar 10, 2024 17:55:06 GMT 1
Sometimes you have to lose money to make more. First doesn't understand this and they are extremely short sighted. Cutting that journey will have a knock on effect. It's a peak time journey. Once that journey is gone people won't be able to make it home after work, which will force them into getting a car and once that happens? Those people won't be supporting that service during other times of day. Potential risks of such things like that are discussed between the Network Planners & Network Performance Managers & they do understand but sometimes the risk is worth more then keeping the journey. Another key thing to remember is there is limits to how much stuff can be cross subsided (both at a group level & legal limits) so they are not able to say route A generates X amount of profit so it can cover route B what operates with Y amount of losses.
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Post by leedsbusman on Mar 10, 2024 17:59:43 GMT 1
Sometimes you have to lose money to make more. First doesn't understand this and they are extremely short sighted. Cutting that journey will have a knock on effect. It's a peak time journey. Once that journey is gone people won't be able to make it home after work, which will force them into getting a car and once that happens? Those people won't be supporting that service during other times of day. I’m sure they do understand that, I can see plenty of examples where there must be cross subsidy across the day on commercial routes. Realistically I doubt the 539 and 48 added value to the network at a time when funding was falling and costs rising while in a labour shortage. I am somewhat surprised the 586 still runs. For years it was linked with the 571 so odd really that it didn’t end when that did. I’m surprised it’s doing much financially.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2024 18:14:06 GMT 1
Sometimes you have to lose money to make more. First doesn't understand this and they are extremely short sighted. Cutting that journey will have a knock on effect. It's a peak time journey. Once that journey is gone people won't be able to make it home after work, which will force them into getting a car and once that happens? Those people won't be supporting that service during other times of day. How long can you run a service that doesn't make any money or in fact lose money? You can't keep running journeys and routes that lose money? If I was in First's position, I'd be doing exactly the same, I know it sounds harsh, you can't keep running journeys that don't make money or lose any money because people might lose the jobs?
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Mar 10, 2024 18:30:07 GMT 1
How do we know they are losing money? It's more likely it doesn't reach their unrealistic profit margins. The takeover of the bluebird operations say all you need to know about their lack of service reinvestment and losses. They don't do it nearly as much as they should and that is reflected in every and any operation they run with poor service hours being a common occurrence.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2024 18:46:52 GMT 1
First are a business they know what doing their main aim is to make as much money as possible while trying to cut costs where possible. I just see them doing what every other business does. Surely if any cuts of the routes that First cut in West Yorkshire if they was that bad, surely they would have been brought back under BSIP funding, or another operator doing the run, but seeing as no other operators was interested, that tells me they was right to cut it.
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Post by shelf81 on Mar 10, 2024 18:49:46 GMT 1
How do we know they are losing money? It's more likely it doesn't reach their unrealistic profit margins. The takeover of the bluebird operations say all you need to know about their lack of service reinvestment and losses. They don't do it nearly as much as they should and that is reflected in every and any operation they run with poor service hours being a common occurrence. Are you meaning the takeover of Midland Bluebird by McGills? They've introduced newer vehicles & restored some of the pre-covid frequencies (First was already intending on doing both) but have also done their own rounds of cuts, including axing the main service to Falkirk Wheel & was going to axe a further 2 others before the council stepped in so I would say they are not the best example. Firsts profit targets are not too much different to Arriva & Stagecoach ranging from 8-15% depending on the operation, if they are unrealistic or not is probably a different conversation for another thread.
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Mar 10, 2024 18:50:41 GMT 1
If a service ain't commercially viable then how do you expect it to run? Clearly some of the services that was cut by the big operators, if they was viable other operators would have taken them on, and WYCA/Metro don't seem bothered, I don't see it as no big loss. All companies their main aim is to make money, why would they keep running a service that loses money? No logical person or business would do that. Halifax isn't just the only area, to get cuts you realise that right? Plenty of cuts in Wakefield and the five towns area. Also, this partnership twitter page is only posting their side of the story? If this service is losing money, why should they keep running it? First, just like Transdev are there to make money. Nobody said Halifax is the only area. I was just using my local service as a prime example as I won't really know what goes on around Wakefield. I mentioned the 48 as one of my friends regularly used the 46/47/48 services when they're over at a their cousins house for several nights and what they had to say about the service is entirely different to what First Bus has to say.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2024 18:53:41 GMT 1
If a service ain't commercially viable then how do you expect it to run? Clearly some of the services that was cut by the big operators, if they was viable other operators would have taken them on, and WYCA/Metro don't seem bothered, I don't see it as no big loss. All companies their main aim is to make money, why would they keep running a service that loses money? No logical person or business would do that. Halifax isn't just the only area, to get cuts you realise that right? Plenty of cuts in Wakefield and the five towns area. Also, this partnership twitter page is only posting their side of the story? If this service is losing money, why should they keep running it? First, just like Transdev are there to make money. Nobody said Halifax is the only area. I was just using my local service as a prime example as I won't really know what goes on around Wakefield. I mentioned the 48 as one of my friends regularly used the 46/47/48 services when they're over at a their cousins house for several nights and what they had to say about the service is entirely different to what First Bus has to say. Surely there's a reason why First cut routes, they don't cut routes because they can't be bothered or feel like it, there has to be a logical reason why routes get cut. As I am sure, First wouldn't want the negative publicity that comes with it. Has any other operator been interested the 46/47/48?
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Mar 10, 2024 18:54:59 GMT 1
Sometimes you have to lose money to make more. First doesn't understand this and they are extremely short sighted. Cutting that journey will have a knock on effect. It's a peak time journey. Once that journey is gone people won't be able to make it home after work, which will force them into getting a car and once that happens? Those people won't be supporting that service during other times of day. I’m sure they do understand that, I can see plenty of examples where there must be cross subsidy across the day on commercial routes. Realistically I doubt the 539 and 48 added value to the network at a time when funding was falling and costs rising while in a labour shortage. I am somewhat surprised the 586 still runs. For years it was linked with the 571 so odd really that it didn’t end when that did. I’m surprised it’s doing much financially. Because the 571 is penny numbers compared to both 539 and 586. The 571 is a slow link for every where apart from the Halifax to Brighouse section. Brighouse to Hipperholme was already provided faster and more frequent on the 548/9, Shelf to Halifax on 508/681/682 and even 526 is quicker, Bradford to Halifax around half an hour quicker using 681/2 or 576 and then the 686 provides an alternate service from Brighouse to Lightcliffe. Once again, it's easy for people to talk that don't use the route. Should ride the 586 and see for yourself.
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Post by shelf81 on Mar 10, 2024 19:09:44 GMT 1
I’m sure they do understand that, I can see plenty of examples where there must be cross subsidy across the day on commercial routes. Realistically I doubt the 539 and 48 added value to the network at a time when funding was falling and costs rising while in a labour shortage. I am somewhat surprised the 586 still runs. For years it was linked with the 571 so odd really that it didn’t end when that did. I’m surprised it’s doing much financially. Because the 571 is penny numbers compared to both 539 and 586. The 571 is a slow link for every where apart from the Halifax to Brighouse section. Brighouse to Hipperholme was already provided faster and more frequent on the 548/9, Shelf to Halifax on 508/681/682 and even 526 is quicker, Bradford to Halifax around half an hour quicker using 681/2 or 576 and then the 686 provides an alternate service from Brighouse to Lightcliffe. Once again, it's easy for people to talk that don't use the route. Should ride the 586 and see for yourself. Unfortunately a busy bus doesn't always equal a profitable one due to numerous factors such as the number of paying passengers v passes, how many people carried 'counter flow', the operational costs e.g number of buses/drivers required or dead running. The 586 (& 560 before it) has had it's profitability & passenger numbers reducing for a number of years due to various factors, even before the frequency cut.
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Post by leedsbusman on Mar 10, 2024 19:11:37 GMT 1
If a service ain't commercially viable then how do you expect it to run? Clearly some of the services that was cut by the big operators, if they was viable other operators would have taken them on, and WYCA/Metro don't seem bothered, I don't see it as no big loss. All companies their main aim is to make money, why would they keep running a service that loses money? No logical person or business would do that. Halifax isn't just the only area, to get cuts you realise that right? Plenty of cuts in Wakefield and the five towns area. Also, this partnership twitter page is only posting their side of the story? If this service is losing money, why should they keep running it? First, just like Transdev are there to make money. Nobody said Halifax is the only area. I was just using my local service as a prime example as I won't really know what goes on around Wakefield. I mentioned the 48 as one of my friends regularly used the 46/47/48 services when they're over at a their cousins house for several nights and what they had to say about the service is entirely different to what First Bus has to say. Why do you think your make knows more about the route than First does?
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Mar 10, 2024 19:25:07 GMT 1
Nobody said Halifax is the only area. I was just using my local service as a prime example as I won't really know what goes on around Wakefield. I mentioned the 48 as one of my friends regularly used the 46/47/48 services when they're over at a their cousins house for several nights and what they had to say about the service is entirely different to what First Bus has to say. Why do you think your make knows more about the route than First does? I used to know way more about the 35 than First did when Bramley ran it. They didn't have a clue what they were doing.
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Mar 10, 2024 19:27:38 GMT 1
Nobody said Halifax is the only area. I was just using my local service as a prime example as I won't really know what goes on around Wakefield. I mentioned the 48 as one of my friends regularly used the 46/47/48 services when they're over at a their cousins house for several nights and what they had to say about the service is entirely different to what First Bus has to say. Why do you think your make knows more about the route than First does? Does the management even know anything about the routes they run? Seems everything is automated, and on the rare chance anything is done by humans, decisions are made in an office, presumably miles away, like how it is here where all decisions are made by people in Leeds! Explains the mess behind the 180s, or now 380s. The company that does nothing but shrink and decline, ignore feedback internally and externally, with the only 'growth' being independents that were bought for reasons other than a typical bus services (Coaches, and Bus Sales) That alone is enough to never put any trust into their reasonings behind commercial decisions.
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Post by shelf81 on Mar 10, 2024 19:50:08 GMT 1
Why do you think your make knows more about the route than First does? Does the management even know anything about the routes they run? Seems everything is automated, and on the rare chance anything is done by humans, decisions are made in an office, presumably miles away, like how it is here where all decisions are made by people in Leeds! Explains the mess behind the 180s, or now 380s. The company that does nothing but shrink and decline, ignore feedback internally and externally, with the only 'growth' being independents that were bought for reasons other than a typical bus services (Coaches, and Bus Sales) That alone is enough to never put any trust into their reasonings behind commercial decisions. It's not fully automated, each operation have at least 1 Network Planner & Network Peformance Manager based at their head depot so for example W&NY would be Leeds, South Yorks would be Olive Grove, WoE would be Hengrove. The changes to 380s are slightly questionable, but with the facts & figures they would of been having to juggle to provide the revised routes there probably was always going to be winners & losers. The growth you mentioned doesn't only come from coaches & bus sales, Ensignbus came with a profitable network around Thurrock plus First have grown it's Transport Solutions company providing stuff such as event/works services/rail replacement contracts & has also grown it's own operations both to/from & around Airports with the Aircoach Leicester, Rail2Air expansion & taking on the contract for East Midlands Airport shuttle buses.
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Post by deerfold on Mar 10, 2024 20:51:14 GMT 1
First does seem to have a penchant for dropping entire routes - the 562 and 502 both had peak extras until they were cut. Most companies would try a reduced frequency or culling early or late buses to try and make a route make money - if they were such poor routes, why were they running extra buses at peak times?
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Post by martinsfp on Mar 10, 2024 22:25:42 GMT 1
First does seem to have a penchant for dropping entire routes - the 562 and 502 both had peak extras until they were cut. Most companies would try a reduced frequency or culling early or late buses to try and make a route make money - if they were such poor routes, why were they running extra buses at peak times? I suspect the answer is that First is run from the top down with a focus on next quarter’s results and the resulting stock price. “We need to juice profits - make more cuts!” When you get like that, product takes a back seat. What matters is money and keeping middle management (at a corporate scale) and higher on the promotion ladder. Notice Google lost its sense of magic around its products? They’re all a bit uninspired and unpolished? Exactly the same problem is playing out at that company, so its products suffer. I miss the First of 25 years ago. Stepping onto a 607 on the first day of the Bradford Overground network, with a brand new, low-floor bus that smelled immaculate, felt like the dawning of a new age. It felt similar to switching from Yahoo Mail to Gmail a few years later. Look at First and Google now. Sad.
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Post by leedsbusman on Mar 10, 2024 23:01:21 GMT 1
Why do you think your make knows more about the route than First does? Does the management even know anything about the routes they run? Seems everything is automated, and on the rare chance anything is done by humans, decisions are made in an office, presumably miles away, like how it is here where all decisions are made by people in Leeds! Explains the mess behind the 180s, or now 380s. The company that does nothing but shrink and decline, ignore feedback internally and externally, with the only 'growth' being independents that were bought for reasons other than a typical bus services (Coaches, and Bus Sales) That alone is enough to never put any trust into their reasonings behind commercial decisions. It’s perhaps worth considering one thing. Just because you don’t agree with their decision or their reasoning doesn’t mean they don’t know what they are doing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2024 9:36:34 GMT 1
If First didn't know what they was doing, they wouldn't be in business would they? I do think Metro/WYCA have it in first or always had an agenda against them, you never see them mention about Arriva!
Because LucyP isn't bashing Transdev, for the same reasons, let's have a bash First day/
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Mar 11, 2024 9:46:16 GMT 1
If First didn't know what they was doing, they wouldn't be in business would they? I do think Metro/WYCA have it in first or always had an agenda against them, you never see them mention about Arriva! Because LucyP isn't bashing Transdev, for the same reasons, let's have a bash First day/ They're in business because they have a captive market who mostly have no other choice but to use their (usually) terrible service. (IE no access to a car, unable to cycle or walk, a disability, elderly etc...).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2024 9:49:23 GMT 1
If First didn't know what they was doing, they wouldn't be in business would they? I do think Metro/WYCA have it in first or always had an agenda against them, you never see them mention about Arriva! Because LucyP isn't bashing Transdev, for the same reasons, let's have a bash First day/ They're in business because they have a captive market who mostly have no other choice but to use their (usually) terrible service. (IE no access to a car, unable to cycle or walk, a disability, elderly etc...). and if the public was in charge, First would go bankrupt. I certainly don't believe a word Tracey Brabin says whatsoever, I think she's a publicity seeking opportunist, only caring about the next election.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Mar 11, 2024 9:58:01 GMT 1
There seem to be a lot of negative assumptions being made here based on unfounded personal opinion or animosity to specific organisations.
1. That local managers will know their networks whilst a remote Head Office manager (particularly schedulers & planners) cannot. As with much to do with buses it very much depends on who is in each position but, particularly in regards to big bus groups, it is normal for depot managers to move much more regularly than schedulers & planners (& when I was applying for jobs and wrote to First, admittedly nearly 20 years ago now, I was told that they recruited their schedulers from their bus drivers so didn't externally recruit specialists meaning their schedulers will have some of the best network knowledge even if it does explain their slack scheduling that is less demanding on the drivers - it may have changed with the move towards more computing based work but there will still be a legacy there. In my current job I have been the main scheduler covering a business stretching from the M25 to the M62 (even if as a series of seperate small operations not big ones it was still several hundred buses) and I would put my network knowledge up against any of the local staff - in the case of every depot I currently schedule I have been doing so longer than the depot manager has been in place (by several years in every case) & except in one case longer than that manager has worked for the company in any capacity. 2. That decisions are made quickly purely on the profit motive. Often we will persevere with loss making routes where we know the council is not in a position to replace & instead hand back a different route, possibly losing less money, as we know this will be replaced. A couple of years ago someone posted on here a list of the profitability of First and it showed half their businesses were losing money and this is not entirely untypical, though the scale was surprising the principle wasn't, all businesses will have profitable & loss making aspects and the skill is ensuring there are more of the former than the latter to ensure the business continues and sometimes decisions have to be made to ensure the loss making aspects don't kill the company. 3. That there are any hard and fast rules. Earlier in this thread it was quoted that First are looking for £60 an hour as if this is an unreasonable figure, I have to say for a big group like First that is slightly lower than I expected. I work for a smaller & much leaner group and we are still looking for £50 per hour as a starting point but that is a very ball park and basic figure and in reality there is lots of movement in both directions depending on many circumstances (can it be interworked, what buses are being used, time of day or week, distance covered) which may increase or decrease that starting point. 4. That what you see is what you get. The idea that you can judge even the income that a trip is generating by looking at loadings died with the free bus pass scheme coming in, remember it is perfectly possible to have a bus full of free pass holders and actually be losing money if the reimbursement is too low. Also you can't just factor in the trip and that will tell you the cost, you have the trip to the depot and when you are looking at start or end of the day it may be the trip that broke the duty (essentially that a single extra trip at the end of the day means you need 2 drivers rather than 1 which massively pushes up the cost and much of it being unproductive). We have had to do things like this where are fairly busy last trip had to be withdrawn as it was costing an extra driver duty (which could be nearly £100 a day) for a single trip. 5. That there is any great profitability in the industry currently. One of the trade press did a recent survey of Stagecoach subsidiaries and of a random selection all had seen profit margins halve and essentially 5% margin seems best you can hope for. You may think this is fine until you look at the recent pay rises companies have had to award and remember that driver costs are the biggest share of costs so almost all of that can be wiped out by one of those big jumps that have been happening. Companies are still trying to find a new stability and there will be lots of these sort of decisions that have been put off for a while hoping for passengers to return that may now have to be taken.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Mar 11, 2024 10:03:00 GMT 1
If First didn't know what they was doing, they wouldn't be in business would they? I do think Metro/WYCA have it in first or always had an agenda against them, you never see them mention about Arriva! Because LucyP isn't bashing Transdev, for the same reasons, let's have a bash First day/ They're in business because they have a captive market who mostly have no other choice but to use their (usually) terrible service. (IE no access to a car, unable to cycle or walk, a disability, elderly etc...). If you build a business purely around people who have no choice you have no business. There aren't enough people in this category to pay for a commercial operation and most of them are travelling on free bus passes whose reimbursement is often non-commercial and out of operators control. You need to offer a service that attracts passengers who have a choice to have a long-term future which may mean that you have to leave some parts out to offer a product that attracts the majority (it is proven simpler networks & high frequencies are more attractive to people with a choice than lots of low frequency routes covering every possible option) which is where a decent funded council safety net is needed (which unfortunately we no longer have as councils are all broke).
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Post by rwilkes on Mar 11, 2024 10:40:27 GMT 1
Dwarfer is absolutely correct. Most bus users can walk a few stops and losing the short fares is quite a blow as many trips are just a few stops. Some can cycle. use trains or share taxis. Many have access to a car or can share lifts. The whole campaign for franchising has been predicated of the idea that buses are broken which makes it hard to get new customers to replace the 9% annual churn. The real 'benefit' of franchising is to increase salaries and jobs at WYCA. Otherwise you get the same network that you could get from a well run partnership but costing millions more. The shareholders still get the same dividends via the leasing costs but pass on the losses the taxpayer.
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