jus363
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Post by jus363 on Aug 17, 2022 22:29:18 GMT 1
Plenty using it now it’s going straight up Pelion lane and being an extra bus to Mixenden But how many get off in Wainstalls? Sure it's just one or two passengers. Probably will be the same as when TP where running it, but it will be the folk of Mixenden who will benefit from having the extra bus |
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Post by moorside on Aug 18, 2022 0:32:45 GMT 1
But how many get off in Wainstalls? Sure it's just one or two passengers. Probably will be the same as when TP where running it, but it will be the folk of Mixenden who will benefit from having the extra bus Mixenden doesn't have "an extra bus", it has the same service as before but now one journey an hour diverts via Wainstalls which gives the Mixenden passengers an extra few minutes to admire the scenery. |
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Aug 18, 2022 7:28:01 GMT 1
You honestly think they will receive 100% of the revenue they lost? The funding for the first year is £8million (they was wanting funding for 3 years,but not sure if they got the full £24mill) what should be enough to cover the gap between current fares & the new £2 cap (the current highest fare for within West Yorkshire is £3.50 i think?),not forgetting there are already fares for under £2 & First offer £2 singles on the APP so the funding won't be needed for every current fare. Plus the idea is it will increase passenger numbers that will also help fill in the gap as well,so if (although unlikely) we do see decent growth it means the funding won't be needed as much. As we have seen with free concessionary travel for OAPs & the disabled there is often a big gulf between what funding politicians say is available and what the operators receive and how that compares to what they should receive. As these discounted £2 aren't statutory (i.e: mandated by law forcing operators to participate regardless of objections) you assume there will be more operator input into what the reimbursement should be to avoid this scenario but as was seen in Merseyside (where a badly managed & reimbursed Uner-18 scheme pushed possibly two smaller operators out of the market due to their fall in revenue) it is still possible to get those agreements wildly long if the local authority are too intransigent. It is all dependent on what generation factor (the expected passenger increase caused by the reduced fares) is used, in the concessionary scheme the generation factor was adjusted to get the payments down to what could be afforded resulting in assumptions that if they had been correct, and operators had genuinely not been worse off, they would have had to increase capacity so much they would still be losing money on concessionary passengers. As you say the one advantage for WY is their bus fares have always been lower than average, even compared to comparable PTE areas where I think only West Midlands is cheaper, so the costs for the local authority is lower on average meaning they may actually be able to afford it as I suspect a lot of people underestimate just how much these schemes are going to cost in the end. |
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ratty
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Post by ratty on Aug 18, 2022 7:37:01 GMT 1
Plenty using it now it’s going straight up Pelion lane and being an extra bus to Mixenden But how many get off in Wainstalls? Sure it's just one or two passengers. To be fair, even in my days at Halifax the then Causeway Foot to Wainstalls bus was hardly a huge money spinner and almost seemed to be there for if one of the other services did not turn up. Going back to then, if you think about it, going up Pellon Lane, there was the 535 to Rye Lane every 30, the 514 to Mixenden every 30, and as far as Spring Hall Lane, the 505/6 (Magic Roundabout) West End bus every 15 minutes. So even then, the pickings for the Wainstalls bus were not very good. As for Wainstalls itself, in my days the factory there was a Mackintosh's sweet factory, which on a couple of trips a day brought a few workers (mostly women) in. Then there were a couple of trips that brought a handful of mums and kids in for school times, and that basically was that. Many the time where I had nobody on in either direction all the way from Wainstalls to Woodlesford and Sandbeds. Going back to deregulation, when the Causeway Foot to Wainstalls service was basically withdrawn. the Wainstalls bit was saddled with all sorts of onward destinations in what was surely an attempt to increase the income. Post 86 it ran to the General Hospital via Skircoat Green, Ringstone 556, 540 Sowerby via Tuel Lane. and I think the 343 to Huddersfield for a very short while and still carried nowt. Not been to Wainstalls since 1992, when I left, so don't know if the village has an increased population, or even if the factory is still there, but as an outsider nowadays, I can't see how a wainstalls service could possibly function without being merged in to a Mixenden service. and even then would probably warrant only an hourly service tendered or not. |
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jus363
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Post by jus363 on Aug 18, 2022 9:34:38 GMT 1
Probably will be the same as when TP where running it, but it will be the folk of Mixenden who will benefit from having the extra bus Mixenden doesn't have "an extra bus", it has the same service as before but now one journey an hour diverts via Wainstalls which gives the Mixenden passengers an extra few minutes to admire the scenery. Getting confused in my old age there's so many route numbers now to Mixenden ! |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Aug 18, 2022 21:38:55 GMT 1
Despite some here apparently never having seen a passenger at Wainstalls, there must be some or else Metro wouldn’t fund the service.
I do wonder if some of these sightings by some here are of every journey all day every day, or more likely, one journey on a Saturday afternoon every six months
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Aug 19, 2022 5:58:05 GMT 1
From my own point of view, I've done walks to and from Wainstalls on many occasions, e.g. from Wainstalls to Luddenden Foot, or Ogden to Wainstalls, every time I've been the only person getting on or off at Wainstalls terminus or the other stops. This has been on various days of the week, and at various times up to mid afternoon. For example, I came into the village at 11am one Saturday morning getting off at the terminus, didn't see anybody at the shelter stop near the factory or terminus stop, you'd think you'd see somebody at that time of day. Maybe Wainstalls would be better served by a DRT bus?
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Post by rwilkes on Aug 19, 2022 15:54:03 GMT 1
Bus grants extended to next March. Great news for bus users but we need more bus lanes and other bus priority to get buses off life support
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Post by steve440 on Aug 19, 2022 16:03:31 GMT 1
Bus grants extended to next March. Great news for bus users but we need more bus lanes and other bus priority to get buses off life support That's definitely good news but we do need some joined up thinking to get the industry back on it's feet! |
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Post by basher37 on Aug 21, 2022 14:31:51 GMT 1
Bus grants extended to next March. Great news for bus users but we need more bus lanes and other bus priority to get buses off life support Don’t need more bus lanes,if owt else you’ll need more P&R especially in Leeds,the 3 in Leeds don’t serve the North or West of the city and are pointless for anybody wanting to use them,then we’ve got to see what happens when the city square area is finished and see what affect it has on bus footfall. |
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Username
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Post by Username on Aug 21, 2022 21:36:31 GMT 1
Bus grants extended to next March. Great news for bus users but we need more bus lanes and other bus priority to get buses off life support Don’t need more bus lanes,if owt else you’ll need more P&R especially in Leeds,the 3 in Leeds don’t serve the North or West of the city and are pointless for anybody wanting to use them,then we’ve got to see what happens when the city square area is finished and see what affect it has on bus footfall. I know definitely Halifax needs a Park & Ride near Elland Wood or something to allow less cars to reduce traffic. The road improvements have improved traffic a little but not too much on the A629. Also definitely need one for the A646. This road year by year is getting busier and it's the only route to Hebden Bridge from Halifax. |
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Post by deerfold on Aug 22, 2022 10:04:56 GMT 1
Bus grants extended to next March. Great news for bus users but we need more bus lanes and other bus priority to get buses off life support Don’t need more bus lanes,if owt else you’ll need more P&R especially in Leeds,the 3 in Leeds don’t serve the North or West of the city and are pointless for anybody wanting to use them,then we’ve got to see what happens when the city square area is finished and see what affect it has on bus footfall. Leeds certainly needs bus priority. I've been stuck on the Headrow on buses that have sat on the Headrow for the length of time it's supposed to take to do the whole route. |
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Post by leeds rider on Aug 22, 2022 11:57:41 GMT 1
Bus grants extended to next March. Great news for bus users but we need more bus lanes and other bus priority to get buses off life support Don’t need more bus lanes,if owt else you’ll need more P&R especially in Leeds,the 3 in Leeds don’t serve the North or West of the city and are pointless for anybody wanting to use them,then we’ve got to see what happens when the city square area is finished and see what affect it has on bus footfall. There are 2 more P&Rs planned for Leeds - one at Alwoodley gates, just off the roundabout at the entrance to the Grammar School, and one on the A64 out beyond Whinmoor (can't remember where exactly...). Both of these seem to be in a moderately advanced state of planning, so likely to come on stream in the next 5 years or so. |
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Aug 22, 2022 13:18:31 GMT 1
Don’t need more bus lanes,if owt else you’ll need more P&R especially in Leeds,the 3 in Leeds don’t serve the North or West of the city and are pointless for anybody wanting to use them,then we’ve got to see what happens when the city square area is finished and see what affect it has on bus footfall. There are 2 more P&Rs planned for Leeds - one at Alwoodley gates, just off the roundabout at the entrance to the Grammar School, and one on the A64 out beyond Whinmoor (can't remember where exactly...). Both of these seem to be in a moderately advanced state of planning, so likely to come on stream in the next 5 years or so. I was looking at the plans for the A64 Park and Ride as part of the 'A64 corridor improvement' documents, they intend for it to be open in 2023. |
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Post by leeds rider on Aug 22, 2022 19:21:58 GMT 1
There are 2 more P&Rs planned for Leeds - one at Alwoodley gates, just off the roundabout at the entrance to the Grammar School, and one on the A64 out beyond Whinmoor (can't remember where exactly...). Both of these seem to be in a moderately advanced state of planning, so likely to come on stream in the next 5 years or so. I was looking at the plans for the A64 Park and Ride as part of the 'A64 corridor improvement' documents, they intend for it to be open in 2023. The planning application for the Alwoodley site has been submitted, but is not approved yet: publicaccess.leeds.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=QEXYJBJBFUC00&activeTab=summary |
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Mar 10, 2024 12:23:39 GMT 1
I know this is not related in terms of area but this is to demonstrate the point that First Group are known for making unreasnable cuts:
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Post by leedsbusman on Mar 10, 2024 13:30:38 GMT 1
I know this is not related in terms of area but this is to demonstrate the point that First Group are known for making unreasonable cuts: I suppose it depends what you mean by unreasonable. Are 17 customers sufficient to cover the costs? |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 10, 2024 14:00:08 GMT 1
If you want to talk about buses in Somerset, there is a Uk Transport section in their forum
Rather than dragging up a completely irrelevant thread from 2 years ago
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Mar 10, 2024 14:10:38 GMT 1
If you want to talk about buses in Somerset, there is a Uk Transport section in their forum Rather than dragging up a completely irrelevant thread from 2 years ago It's not irrelevant as I am trying to discuss the point of cuts to services like the 48 and 539 which happened in October 2022 unreasonable. Also October 2022 is not 2 years ago, not even a year and a half ago! |
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Post by leedsbusman on Mar 10, 2024 14:44:47 GMT 1
If you want to talk about buses in Somerset, there is a Uk Transport section in their forum Rather than dragging up a completely irrelevant thread from 2 years ago It's not irrelevant as I am trying to discuss the point of cuts to services like the 48 and 539 which happened in October 2022 unreasonable. Also October 2022 is not 2 years ago, not even a year and a half ago! Why were they ‘unreasonable’ - they were no longer viable for the commercial operator, no other commercial operator felt them viable and WYCA clearly didn’t feel a tendered service was required to fill the gap. Both 48 and 539 had very little unique custom so relatively few people were impacted. |
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Post by shelf81 on Mar 10, 2024 15:35:33 GMT 1
I know this is not related in terms of area but this is to demonstrate the point that First Group are known for making unreasnable cuts: Whilst you might think of it as unreasonable, unfortunately due to model First operate off this is understandable. First currently decide what is/is not effective of running off a formula based off daily/weekly/monthly takings divided by PVR of the route but roughly each bus needs to make around £60 per hour to cover operational costs then anything above that is profit with different operation have different profit targets. Even pre-covid routes such as the 48,539 & other routes that have remained but seen cuts such as the 91,508,586 & 613/4 was struggling to meet them targets hence the decisions First have made. |
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Mar 10, 2024 16:04:11 GMT 1
I know this is not related in terms of area but this is to demonstrate the point that First Group are known for making unreasnable cuts: Whilst you might think of it as unreasonable, unfortunately due to model First operate off this is understandable. First currently decide what is/is not effective of running off a formula based off daily/weekly/monthly takings divided by PVR of the route but roughly each bus needs to make around £60 per hour to cover operational costs then anything above that is profit with different operation have different profit targets. Even pre-covid routes such as the 48,539 & other routes that have remained but seen cuts such as the 91,508,586 & 613/4 was struggling to meet them targets hence the decisions First have made. Still First bus cares more about costs then their actual customers. You would realise that half the services they run have been cut because they have made silly changes that are unreliable for the passengers demotivating them to ride public transport. From observation off the 586 as that was my local service, customer usage has dropped significantly compared to when the 587 used to coordinate to form a half hourly service. Now people for Ripponden are no longer using the buses in the evening as they have to rely on one bus every 2 hours since 561/2 and 587 don't run. There are also silly gaps in the timetable which is another reason as several 586s are timed 10 minutes behind the 587s and Firstbus wonders why there customer levels have dropped, maybe they should try looking into reasons before they want to chop! Or at the very least offer replacements like Arriva has done where the 228 (260) had been rerouted via Kirkheaton to save an extra couple of buses whilst maintaining the half - hourly link for Kirkheaton. |
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Post by shelf81 on Mar 10, 2024 16:30:04 GMT 1
Whilst you might think of it as unreasonable, unfortunately due to model First operate off this is understandable. First currently decide what is/is not effective of running off a formula based off daily/weekly/monthly takings divided by PVR of the route but roughly each bus needs to make around £60 per hour to cover operational costs then anything above that is profit with different operation have different profit targets. Even pre-covid routes such as the 48,539 & other routes that have remained but seen cuts such as the 91,508,586 & 613/4 was struggling to meet them targets hence the decisions First have made. Still First bus cares more about costs then their actual customers. You would realise that half the services they run have been cut because they have made silly changes that are unreliable for the passengers demotivating them to ride public transport. From observation off the 586 as that was my local service, customer usage has dropped significantly compared to when the 587 used to coordinate to form a half hourly service. Now people for Ripponden are no longer using the buses in the evening as they have to rely on one bus every 2 hours since 561/2 and 587 don't run. There are also silly gaps in the timetable which is another reason as several 586s are timed 10 minutes behind the 587s and Firstbus wonders why there customer levels have dropped, maybe they should try looking into reasons before they want to chop! Or at the very least offer replacements like Arriva has done where the 228 (260) had been rerouted via Kirkheaton to save an extra couple of buses whilst maintaining the half - hourly link for Kirkheaton. Whilst I understand as it's your local service the cuts to 586 would of been hard the reality is with the current setup of the bus network, First will operate what is profitable & when the 586 was hourly it wasn't generating enough paying passengers to cover the costs First required. A Drop in usage is expected with a frequency cut but from Firsts point of view it will be will asking are the resources saved be larger enough than the lost passengers to put the route back into financial viability. At the time of the cut there was also a driver shortage so alot of operators across the country was looking at what routes to reduce to save numbers. One thing to take into consideration is the 586 is the only commercial route in the Ripponden area & that tendered routes have had evening services reduced as well. Had the Rochdale route ended a few years ago (I Believe it was still the X58 when it was at risk?) then 586 would probably have been able to remain hourly. I'm not sure what gaps your meaning as the 586 runs to a standard two hourly frequency all day (5:20,7:20,9:20 & so on from Halifax), with the 587 departing at :50 for most of the day. The only trips that run close together is the 17:10 587 & 17:20 586, but due to peak time traffic on the TP interworking vs First Interwork that's unavoidable without giving Rishworth a larger gap during the afternoon peak. Unlike the 260/1 example with Arriva the options for merging the 586 with another service are not as easy, with merging with 579 with a loop around Sowerby or merging with the 587 or 561/2 with them serving Ripponden twice being the only two. |
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Mar 10, 2024 17:03:09 GMT 1
Still First bus cares more about costs then their actual customers. You would realise that half the services they run have been cut because they have made silly changes that are unreliable for the passengers demotivating them to ride public transport. From observation off the 586 as that was my local service, customer usage has dropped significantly compared to when the 587 used to coordinate to form a half hourly service. Now people for Ripponden are no longer using the buses in the evening as they have to rely on one bus every 2 hours since 561/2 and 587 don't run. There are also silly gaps in the timetable which is another reason as several 586s are timed 10 minutes behind the 587s and Firstbus wonders why there customer levels have dropped, maybe they should try looking into reasons before they want to chop! Or at the very least offer replacements like Arriva has done where the 228 (260) had been rerouted via Kirkheaton to save an extra couple of buses whilst maintaining the half - hourly link for Kirkheaton. Whilst I understand as it's your local service the cuts to 586 would of been hard the reality is with the current setup of the bus network, First will operate what is profitable & when the 586 was hourly it wasn't generating enough paying passengers to cover the costs First required. A Drop in usage is expected with a frequency cut but from Firsts point of view it will be will asking are the resources saved be larger enough than the lost passengers to put the route back into financial viability. At the time of the cut there was also a driver shortage so alot of operators across the country was looking at what routes to reduce to save numbers. One thing to take into consideration is the 586 is the only commercial route in the Ripponden area & that tendered routes have had evening services reduced as well. Had the Rochdale route ended a few years ago (I Believe it was still the X58 when it was at risk?) then 586 would probably have been able to remain hourly. I'm not sure what gaps your meaning as the 586 runs to a standard two hourly frequency all day (5:20,7:20,9:20 & so on from Halifax), with the 587 departing at :50 for most of the day. The only trips that run close together is the 17:10 587 & 17:20 586, but due to peak time traffic on the TP interworking vs First Interwork that's unavoidable without giving Rishworth a larger gap during the afternoon peak. Unlike the 260/1 example with Arriva the options for merging the 586 with another service are not as easy, with merging with 579 with a loop around Sowerby or merging with the 587 or 561/2 with them serving Ripponden twice being the only two. It appears you haven't looked in to the timetable that well as I have found several more 08:00 (587) and 08:09 (586) at Ripponden towards Halifax which is a 9 minute gap, 07:20 (586) from Waterhouse Street but in reality it doesn't take 0 minutes to travel between Waterhouse Street and Halifax Bus Station in reality the 586 always gets there around 07:22 and 07:35 (587) a 15 minute gap in timetable or 13 minutes thinking about technicalities, isn't just the 17:10 and 17:20. I think I of all people should know how my local service runs. Pretty easy for people to poke fingers and say areas aren't affected when they don't understand what it's like to use a bus service. Is it actually people or robots who run the timetabling system as they've done a very crap job about it. What I can say to this is I hope out of the bus reform franchising is the method chosen to improve bus services over an Enhanced Partnership + as all the funding seems to get spent in one area with more rural services suffering a loss of frequency. All I can say to this is Viva La Franchising! |
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Post by shelf81 on Mar 10, 2024 17:30:15 GMT 1
Whilst I understand as it's your local service the cuts to 586 would of been hard the reality is with the current setup of the bus network, First will operate what is profitable & when the 586 was hourly it wasn't generating enough paying passengers to cover the costs First required. A Drop in usage is expected with a frequency cut but from Firsts point of view it will be will asking are the resources saved be larger enough than the lost passengers to put the route back into financial viability. At the time of the cut there was also a driver shortage so alot of operators across the country was looking at what routes to reduce to save numbers. One thing to take into consideration is the 586 is the only commercial route in the Ripponden area & that tendered routes have had evening services reduced as well. Had the Rochdale route ended a few years ago (I Believe it was still the X58 when it was at risk?) then 586 would probably have been able to remain hourly. I'm not sure what gaps your meaning as the 586 runs to a standard two hourly frequency all day (5:20,7:20,9:20 & so on from Halifax), with the 587 departing at :50 for most of the day. The only trips that run close together is the 17:10 587 & 17:20 586, but due to peak time traffic on the TP interworking vs First Interwork that's unavoidable without giving Rishworth a larger gap during the afternoon peak. Unlike the 260/1 example with Arriva the options for merging the 586 with another service are not as easy, with merging with 579 with a loop around Sowerby or merging with the 587 or 561/2 with them serving Ripponden twice being the only two. It appears you haven't looked in to the timetable that well as I have found several more 08:00 (587) and 08:09 (586) at Ripponden towards Halifax which is a 9 minute gap, 07:20 (586) from Waterhouse Street but in reality it doesn't take 0 minutes to travel between Waterhouse Street and Halifax Bus Station in reality the 586 always gets there around 07:22 and 07:35 (587) a 15 minute gap in timetable or 13 minutes thinking about technicalities, isn't just the 17:10 and 17:20. I think I of all people should know how my local service runs. Pretty easy for people to poke fingers and say areas aren't affected when they don't understand what it's like to use a bus service. Is it actually people or robots who run the timetabling system as they've done a very crap job about it. What I can say to this is I hope out of the bus reform franchising is the method chosen to improve bus services over an Enhanced Partnership + as all the funding seems to get spent in one area with more rural services suffering a loss of frequency. All I can say to this is Viva La Franchising! Apologies I Didn't spot those 2 morning examples you mentioned, but similar to the evening example I mentioned there isn't an easy fix without either having an odd frequency on 586 to work around 587 or Metro to pay for an extra bus in the 587 contract to keep it to an even frequency during peak times. I'd say First have done the best out of a difficult situation (I will admit I'm biased), an Hourly service wasn't generating enough income but they've been able to keep some form of early/evening frequency & for the majority of the daytime journies timed them fairly ok between the 587s. If Franchising is introduced then income v operational costs won't be Firsts responsibility, but until then First will need to continue to only operate routes that can generate a profit as at the end of the day they are a business. It should be worth noting as well WYCA have not decided (yet at least) to use either it's own funds or BSIP/BSIP+ funding to restore an hourly frequency either. |
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