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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Dec 31, 2015 10:14:00 GMT 1
Today ConneXions N414ENW is on the 8's, operating the 0917 from Colton, 1107, 1307 & 1507 from Halton, and then the 1720 from Thorpe Park.
0745 from Pudsey, 1012, 1212, 1412 & 1615 from Horsforth.
Finishes at Pudsey Bus Station at 1840
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Dec 31, 2015 10:18:05 GMT 1
I believe that the following vehicles are also due to fall foul of DDA compliance - R452JSG, S456KCW, S211TDW & S118TDW.
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29721
Forum Member
Driver at Globe Coaches
Posts: 45
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Post by 29721 on Dec 31, 2015 11:25:18 GMT 1
Can non DDA compliant vehicles still be used as driver training vehicles and school buses / private hires?
Thanks
Dave.
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Dec 31, 2015 12:39:22 GMT 1
Can non DDA compliant vehicles still be used as driver training vehicles and school buses / private hires? Thanks Dave. Schools I believe have to be fully non fare paying (so private schools where the fare is part of the term fees would be DDA), so only services where the council pay for passes etc. Driver Training is still permitted, as the vehicle is not in passenger service. Private Hire I would say could get away with being non DDA, as again not a public service. |
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37057
Forum Member
Posts: 867
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Post by 37057 on Dec 31, 2015 16:04:36 GMT 1
60824 last day out on 626
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jan 2, 2016 12:13:23 GMT 1
Can non DDA compliant vehicles still be used as driver training vehicles and school buses / private hires? Thanks Dave. Schools I believe have to be fully non fare paying (so private schools where the fare is part of the term fees would be DDA), so only services where the council pay for passes etc. Driver Training is still permitted, as the vehicle is not in passenger service. Private Hire I would say could get away with being non DDA, as again not a public service. DDA only covers regular scheduled services, so Driver Training & Private hire is not covered. Schools are a bit of a grey area, if it is a registered service open to all it is covered whilst if it is an unregistered 'closed door' contract where no passengers pay anything towards travel then it is definitely not covered. The grey area is in the middle, such as these private school contracts or council contracts where the council sell additional tickets to top up the loadings, the law appears to include this as covered by DDA but the government have said repeatedly that if it is unregistered then it isn't covered but until someone actually tests it in court it will remain grey and unclear. |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jan 2, 2016 13:46:43 GMT 1
So if it's a registered school route but everyone travels on 'zero fare' passes, then would it be exempt or not. Not that important now, but when it comes to double decks next year it might be.
How about long distance school buses generally to faith or grammar schools where parents pay each term. The many services from Leeds to Harrogate schools I'm thinking of.
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Post by johndc1984 on Jan 2, 2016 15:04:45 GMT 1
60825 is still out and about today in Bradford on the 620
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37057
Forum Member
Posts: 867
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Post by 37057 on Jan 2, 2016 16:56:42 GMT 1
60825 is still out and about today in Bradford on the 620 So could get in trouble? |
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Post by andyk4050 on Jan 2, 2016 17:07:46 GMT 1
60825 is still out and about today in Bradford on the 620 So could get in trouble? Aren't they allowed 20days a year? |
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Post by pub146g on Jan 2, 2016 17:32:11 GMT 1
Yes there's a 20 day exemption within the regulations which state a non DDA compliant bus can be used for up to 20 days a year. Not sure how practical it would be to keep such buses for limited use, they could be using the 20 days as an extention 'til mid January when the replacements should be all in place. There has been 15 years notice though so really it shouldn't come down to needing an "extra few days".
Think Connextions are using the 20 day extention too, so R452JSG etc are likely to be still around from Monday.
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Post by Jonesy on Jan 2, 2016 17:59:49 GMT 1
Will the B L Travel Wright Crusaders and Optare Exels be affected by this New Rule
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Post by Burnside on Jan 3, 2016 3:43:25 GMT 1
Could these low floor buses not be made compliant or is it just that's it's not worth spending the money converting a vehicle of that age rather than its physically not possible?
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jan 3, 2016 10:37:10 GMT 1
Could these low floor buses not be made compliant or is it just that's it's not worth spending the money converting a vehicle of that age rather than its physically not possible? It's possible to convert a step-entrance bus to be DDA compliant if you really wanted to (it would have to start with fitting a lift) and a number of companies have done so for older low-floors (like First) but as you say cost is the main consideration as the procedure isn't that cheap and the buses aren't really worth a lot but if you have a lot to replace it comes out cheaper than buying a lot of new buses. |
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jan 3, 2016 10:59:55 GMT 1
So if it's a registered school route but everyone travels on 'zero fare' passes, then would it be exempt or not. Not that important now, but when it comes to double decks next year it might be. How about long distance school buses generally to faith or grammar schools where parents pay each term. The many services from Leeds to Harrogate schools I'm thinking of. Those are the grey areas, given the buying policies of most operators it seems much of the industry seem prepared to accept the DfT assurances that non-registered school aren't covered and are operating as such. You have to remember all those coaches built after 2005 also need to be DDA compliant if used on included services. I guess part of the reasoning for this position is that only pre-approved passengers can travel so if there is a need for wheelchair accessibility it will be known in advance and provided as required, whether that stands up to legal scrutiny is another matter. |
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Post by pub146g on Jan 3, 2016 14:57:27 GMT 1
Could these low floor buses not be made compliant or is it just that's it's not worth spending the money converting a vehicle of that age rather than its physically not possible? The Leeds Scania L94's which have been upgraded have cost getting on for 10k per bus. Whether this could be called money well spent is debatable but First are wanting around another 3 years service out of them, the oldest ones are T reg and newest are Y. Unfortunately one of the newest that's been done, 60212 has been involved in an RTA so it's future is uncertain. The Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 2000 (PSVAR)came into effect for all buses entering service from 1st Jan 2001 so all such buses had to conform but prior to this date there were no set guidance so manufacturers had their own interpretation of a low floor bus. As a result, some older buses require more work than others to make them comply, one example being Scania L113's which can't be brought up to spec without extensive changes to the wheelarches so age and cost would go against such upgrades. |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jan 3, 2016 16:10:04 GMT 1
How about the Renowns that Transdev converted to MyBuses. I expect the Blazefield standard at the time was superior than some, and the MyBus routes are closed contracts that by the sounds of it doesn't apply.
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Post by rotherham231 on Jan 6, 2016 22:46:09 GMT 1
Could these low floor buses not be made compliant or is it just that's it's not worth spending the money converting a vehicle of that age rather than its physically not possible? Given that the Leeds Scanias were upgraded at roughly £10,000 per bus I would imagine that it's not viable. All of the non DDA compliant single deckers in South Yorkshire last operated new years eve and it's being tight for buses since |
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Post by whereami on Feb 2, 2016 18:08:46 GMT 1
So, members have said that, there was a 20 day period, where non-DDA singles could be used in service?
Have Streamline in Huddersfield had their T & V reg Darts on 370/371 made compliant to the DDA regs?
I'm just curious, cos if it cost First, approx £10,000 each to do some Scania's, would Streamline be able to afford to do theirs?
And seeing that Streamline only run Monday-Friday, then their 20 day reprieve would've ended on Friday 29th Jan
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Post by redpanda on Feb 3, 2016 7:23:49 GMT 1
Another forum talked of a twelve day timeframe from January 1st (not including bank holidays) for operators to make the necessary changes to non DDA buses. Those two week came and went and I don't think many Merseyside operators have done anything.
A Merseyside operator's Dart SN06 BMO has always had green LEDs and I don't think it has a rear board. Arriva NW have a number of wright pulsars and wright renowns in service even though they have a fault with their side/rear route destination boards.
So either nothing is going to happen until the middle of the year or somebody could come in and say something forcing operators to get their act together.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Feb 3, 2016 9:22:48 GMT 1
The costs quoted for First may well have been at the top end of the possible prices, from what I have heard the earlier Scanias were harder to convert than some other models so the costs would be lower for other models, I know Plymouth Citybus have converted some older Dart SLFs to DDA spec so it is not unlikely for them to have been done.
Twenty days per year is what I have seen quoted as allowance for non-DDAs to be used, this was largely put in place to allow for heritage operations and the like rather than normal usage. These rules do only really apply to fitted rather than working, there is an allowance for items breaking down which is particularly applicable to electronic destination blinds which can prove patchy though often the fault just needs a bus reset. It is not entirely clear who will actually be enforcing these rules (the number of non-DDA post 2006 coaches seen as express dupes and registered school buses show this issue), I assume it will be the DVSA but they will not necessarily be targeting it but as with all these things if it gets to the Traffic Commissioner it becomes a very different proposition.
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Post by redpanda on Feb 3, 2016 18:44:32 GMT 1
Another forum talked of a twelve day timeframe from January 1st (not including bank holidays) for operators to make the necessary changes to non DDA buses. Those two week came and went and I don't think many Merseyside operators have done anything. A Merseyside operator's Dart SN06 BMO has always had green LEDs and I don't think it has a rear board. Arriva NW have a number of wright pulsars and wright renowns in service even though they have a fault with their side/rear route destination boards. So either nothing is going to happen until the middle of the year or somebody could come in and say something forcing operators to get their act together. Don't think the renowns are DDA compliant as most of the bell buttons aren't braille I said earlier that most of them aren't |
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Post by rotherham231 on Mar 1, 2016 19:42:39 GMT 1
The costs quoted for First may well have been at the top end of the possible prices, from what I have heard the earlier Scanias were harder to convert than some other models so the costs would be lower for other models, I know Plymouth Citybus have converted some older Dart SLFs to DDA spec so it is not unlikely for them to have been done. Twenty days per year is what I have seen quoted as allowance for non-DDAs to be used, this was largely put in place to allow for heritage operations and the like rather than normal usage. These rules do only really apply to fitted rather than working, there is an allowance for items breaking down which is particularly applicable to electronic destination blinds which can prove patchy though often the fault just needs a bus reset. It is not entirely clear who will actually be enforcing these rules (the number of non-DDA post 2006 coaches seen as express dupes and registered school buses show this issue), I assume it will be the DVSA but they will not necessarily be targeting it but as with all these things if it gets to the Traffic Commissioner it becomes a very different proposition. The price that I quoted was higher than you would expect because the level of work that was required additionally such as rotten floors and more lino than most, there was also a lot more steel work underneath on the Scanias than most because they were shot. The Hanover displays and ramps do come at a price though and with all the other parts and materials it all adds up plus man hours. |
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Post by rotherham231 on Mar 1, 2016 19:46:11 GMT 1
Don't think the renowns are DDA compliant as most of the bell buttons aren't braille I said earlier that most of them aren't You're right, the bell pushes are not braille amongst other things. If they were registered after 31/12/2000 when PSV Accessibility Regulations 2000 came in then they are compliant and there are some within First Group. The ones in question, if they were to need certifying as DDA now then they would require work to make it happen as regulations have got stricter since 2001 when they were built. |
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davep
Forum Member
Posts: 56
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Post by davep on Mar 2, 2016 23:46:19 GMT 1
In certain areas of southern Europe there doesn't seem to be the rush to DDA compliance as there is in the UK are we ahead of the game or don't they bother, I have travelled on dual doored Setras in northern Italy around Luca and Pisa and Mercs in the Greek islands and Volvo B9M and B10M in Madeira with an odd low floor single decker occasionally seen.In my view they were the equivalent to the Leyland Leopards/ AEC Reliances of the past, If DDA is Europe wide why are we the only ones being DDA compliance, and one other thing no buggy areas now there's thought.............
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