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Post by dwarfer1979 on Mar 3, 2016 9:43:30 GMT 1
In certain areas of southern Europe there doesn't seem to be the rush to DDA compliance as there is in the UK are we ahead of the game or don't they bother, I have travelled on dual doored Setras in northern Italy around Luca and Pisa and Mercs in the Greek islands and Volvo B9M and B10M in Madeira with an odd low floor single decker occasionally seen.In my view they were the equivalent to the Leyland Leopards/ AEC Reliances of the past, If DDA is Europe wide why are we the only ones being DDA compliance, and one other thing no buggy areas now there's thought............. DDA is a piece of UK legislation not a European directive and in this we have overtaken European practice on accessibility, you just need to look at the number of step entrance vehicles below the spec of a coach (the equivalent of the DP Leopard) being offered at the major European bus shows to see that. If there is a piece of EU legislation covering disability access it is a lot less stringent than UK DDA and appears to be satisfied simply by fitting a lift to step entrance vehicles, which is also something that shows the contrast between UK & European bus operation as I suspect if you asked a British bus operator they would turn around and say there simply isn't the time to be deploying lifts to get wheelchairs on & off and still keep to time and that is before you get to the question of pushchairs, the demand growth potential of which is what drove the rapid conversion to low floor in the late nineties (it is one of those areas where the bus has a clear competitive advantage over the car as mothers don't have to disturb sleeping children by getting them in & out of the buggy if you just wheel it on & off).
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Post by Burnside on Mar 3, 2016 14:38:36 GMT 1
I think a bigger question is who came up with the particular dates when certain vehicles are banned from service?
Cos as it stands, perfectly good low floor single deckers have had to be withdrawn or modified, while First Bradford are still able to put step entrance Volvo Olympians out in service. (And i'm not talking about an odd journey on the 714 to Owlcotes, pics on Flickr show THREE of them on the 617/618 either yesterday or the day before).
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Mar 3, 2016 16:00:27 GMT 1
I think a bigger question is who came up with the particular dates when certain vehicles are banned from service? Cos as it stands, perfectly good low floor single deckers have had to be withdrawn or modified, while First Bradford are still able to put step entrance Volvo Olympians out in service. (And i'm not talking about an odd journey on the 714 to Owlcotes, pics on Flickr show THREE of them on the 617/618 either yesterday or the day before). I think a lot of the dates were chosen based on average life expectancy of the various types of vehicles. End of 2014 for minibuses End of 2015 for Single Decks Low Floor Single Decks were becoming quite widespread already by 2001End of 2016 for Double Decks Low Floor Double Decks were still fairly new in 2001End of 2019 for Coaches Not all that many Wheelchair Accessible Coaches exist older than 2006
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Post by stevieinselby on Mar 3, 2016 17:05:48 GMT 1
I think a bigger question is who came up with the particular dates when certain vehicles are banned from service? Cos as it stands, perfectly good low floor single deckers have had to be withdrawn or modified, while First Bradford are still able to put step entrance Volvo Olympians out in service. (And i'm not talking about an odd journey on the 714 to Owlcotes, pics on Flickr show THREE of them on the 617/618 either yesterday or the day before). I think a lot of the dates were chosen based on average life expectancy of the various types of vehicles. End of 2014 for minibuses End of 2015 for Single Decks Low Floor Single Decks were becoming quite widespread already by 2001End of 2016 for Double Decks Low Floor Double Decks were still fairly new in 2001End of 2019 for Coaches Not all that many Wheelchair Accessible Coaches exist older than 2006Agreed. Think back to the late 90s. As well as low floor midibuses like the Dart and Solo, there were full size single-deckers from Volvo, DAF, Scania and Optare by about 1996/7, whereas the first low-floor double-decker was the Spectra in 1998 and then Volvo joined the party in 1999. The normal life span of a bus is thought to be about 15-20 years, so even the oldest low floor buses are now reaching the end of their useful life. Because double-deckers of the same age are all step-entrance, it seems fair that we allow them to remain in service for another year.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Mar 4, 2016 9:49:49 GMT 1
I think a bigger question is who came up with the particular dates when certain vehicles are banned from service? Cos as it stands, perfectly good low floor single deckers have had to be withdrawn or modified, while First Bradford are still able to put step entrance Volvo Olympians out in service. (And i'm not talking about an odd journey on the 714 to Owlcotes, pics on Flickr show THREE of them on the 617/618 either yesterday or the day before). It was based on a reasonable operating life for a bus which is generally felt to be 12-15years so setting the end date as 15-years after DDA became mandatory for all buses for single deckers was seen as fair at the time. Some operators (like First) got a bit behind on their replacement cycle which has left them rebuilding buses that should have been withdrawn. The problem comes with school work where low cost older vehicles doing low mileages is very cost effective (and the running cost difference between a Volvo Olympian & Tridnet/B7TL is pretty marked you could see 50% better fuel consumption depending on engine specs being compared) leading to step entrance vehicles remaining longer than they otherwise would and if they are in the fleet they will appear occasionally on normal service. A 15-year life was a sensible proposed age with which the industry as a whole agreed though some of the financial pressures of recent years meant some operators fell behind on routine fleet replacement which has caused these issues & anomalies as the deadline actually hits. Coaches were more difficult since when the legislation passed there wasn't actually a reasonable solution on how to meet DDA in an operationally sensible manner (the only option at the time was a middle lift that was slow to deploy, and left a big whole in the middle of the bus when in operation causing drafts for other customers, and needed 4 seats to be taken out). The UK scheduled coach market is fairly small and since most coach suppliers are European and Europe had no such requirement they saw an insufficient market to pay for the costs. It was only after National Express took the lead and promised an exclusive deal that Caetano for all NatEx coaches that sufficient volume was guaranteed to justify the expense (Van Hool having built their reputation on special builds also came up with a solution for an Arriva order around the same time). This issue was the cause of the much later date for DDA but fortunately due to Nat Ex replacing their coaches fairly young there will be a decent park of secondhand DDA coaches by the time the deadline comes in as they replace after about 5/6-years and these coaches have now been available for 10-years).
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Steve Macz403
Forum Member
Waits at the bus stop for his bus, 2 days later bus turns up :D
Posts: 1,679
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Post by Steve Macz403 on Mar 6, 2016 23:06:33 GMT 1
I think a bigger question is who came up with the particular dates when certain vehicles are banned from service? Cos as it stands, perfectly good low floor single deckers have had to be withdrawn or modified, while First Bradford are still able to put step entrance Volvo Olympians out in service. (And i'm not talking about an odd journey on the 714 to Owlcotes, pics on Flickr show THREE of them on the 617/618 either yesterday or the day before). It was based on a reasonable operating life for a bus which is generally felt to be 12-15years so setting the end date as 15-years after DDA became mandatory for all buses for single deckers was seen as fair at the time. Some operators (like First) got a bit behind on their replacement cycle which has left them rebuilding buses that should have been withdrawn. The problem comes with school work where low cost older vehicles doing low mileages is very cost effective (and the running cost difference between a Volvo Olympian & Tridnet/B7TL is pretty marked you could see 50% better fuel consumption depending on engine specs being compared) leading to step entrance vehicles remaining longer than they otherwise would and if they are in the fleet they will appear occasionally on normal service. A 15-year life was a sensible proposed age with which the industry as a whole agreed though some of the financial pressures of recent years meant some operators fell behind on routine fleet replacement which has caused these issues & anomalies as the deadline actually hits. Coaches were more difficult since when the legislation passed there wasn't actually a reasonable solution on how to meet DDA in an operationally sensible manner (the only option at the time was a middle lift that was slow to deploy, and left a big whole in the middle of the bus when in operation causing drafts for other customers, and needed 4 seats to be taken out). The UK scheduled coach market is fairly small and since most coach suppliers are European and Europe had no such requirement they saw an insufficient market to pay for the costs. It was only after National Express took the lead and promised an exclusive deal that Caetano for all NatEx coaches that sufficient volume was guaranteed to justify the expense (Van Hool having built their reputation on special builds also came up with a solution for an Arriva order around the same time). This issue was the cause of the much later date for DDA but fortunately due to Nat Ex replacing their coaches fairly young there will be a decent park of secondhand DDA coaches by the time the deadline comes in as they replace after about 5/6-years and these coaches have now been available for 10-years). Types like the Volvo Olympian are well built step entrance buses. Which have had history, and have been on a generation of Leyland Olympian. And even that was based from the Bristol VRT. Probably in the longer run the Olympian would have better fuel efficiency than the earlier Trident or B7TL. Also the earlier low floor buses have a trend of being underpowered.
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