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Post by Burnside on Feb 14, 2014 21:25:47 GMT 1
To be fair, the Overhead Lines on the ECML are not great. In fact, a fly farting in Aberdeen would be enough to blow them down in Grantham!
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Feb 17, 2014 9:30:02 GMT 1
To be fair, the Overhead Lines on the ECML are not great. In fact, a fly farting in Aberdeen would be enough to blow them down in Grantham! That was more due to the fact the ECML was done on the cheap by BR to get it in so is less rugged than that used on other lines which don't get blown down anywhere near as often. I wouldn't use the ECML as a reason for not having overhead and in an urban setting there is much more protection from wind by buildings etc, you just have the risks that caught the WCML last week which is of things getting blown onto the power lines and causing disruption that way.
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riclam
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Post by riclam on Feb 18, 2014 17:23:57 GMT 1
Assuming the current weather is not a one off event, how would a trolleybus system cope with wires coming down on a regular basis - if we look to the ECML which has much more heavy duty equipment, and yet still has frequent problems with wind etc - not very well!! Weak argument against NGT to be honest, Bradford coped well for 60 years with trolleybuses in bad weather
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Post by rst1987 on May 21, 2014 0:01:07 GMT 1
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Post by rwilkes on May 21, 2014 8:59:25 GMT 1
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Post by westyorkshirebus on May 21, 2014 17:30:14 GMT 1
I wouldnt hold an editorial in the T&A on the paper its written on. They've probably taken a back hander to write it, alongside all the Westfield back handers they must get weekly!
Still a very wooly suggestion with no substance behind it.
Who's going to pay for conductors to man the rear door? Free wi-fi, nothing to stop this being available on buses now Smart card technology, already is happening now and in the near future.
Obviously people are impressed because they assume all buses are old and smelly currently now, so they would obviously like new buses.
It's obvious that First are scared if losing market share so are suggesting things that they could do anyway.
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Post by jdodger08 on May 29, 2014 13:54:14 GMT 1
I think the Council and Metro both have their eyes set on implementing a new mode of transportation regardless of what form it comes in. They failed with the tram so went for the next thing, and I don't agree with the trolley bus being the best thing for Leeds but the fact of the matter is this is something in which they can have the most control over at the moment, and people are pushed away from using the bus as its slow, crowded, un-reliable, confusing... and they can control these factors with the t-bus at the moment.
But for Leeds, and west Yorkshire to work properly we need an integrated network, controlled by the pte. Quality contracts? Implement them all ready, Metro, grow a pair and stop First walking all over you!
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Post by rwilkes on May 31, 2014 20:57:28 GMT 1
Metro should sign up for a quality partnership like good bus cities eg Nottingham, Brighton Quality Contracts would simply put up council taxes and cut buss services Quality Contracts would only work with London style funding which Metro cannot provide The trolley inquiry is showing First not to be at fault - its all with Metro
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Post by resolution on Jun 1, 2014 19:36:28 GMT 1
Metro should sign up for a quality partnership like good bus cities eg Nottingham, Brighton Quality Contracts would simply put up council taxes and cut buss services Quality Contracts would only work with London style funding which Metro cannot provide The trolley inquiry is showing First not to be at fault - its all with Metro The trolleybus scheme in its present form is almost certainly not the ideal solution for Leeds but Metro and Leeds City Council are far more likely to have their bus passengers' interests at heart than a reactionary bus company concerned solely with protecting its own business interests.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jun 2, 2014 8:28:25 GMT 1
Metro should sign up for a quality partnership like good bus cities eg Nottingham, Brighton Quality Contracts would simply put up council taxes and cut buss services Quality Contracts would only work with London style funding which Metro cannot provide The trolley inquiry is showing First not to be at fault - its all with Metro The trolleybus scheme in its present form is almost certainly not the ideal solution for Leeds but Metro and Leeds City Council are far more likely to have their bus passengers' interests at heart than a reactionary bus company concerned solely with protecting its own business interests. Since a bus companies business interests rely on fulfilling their passengers interests a commercially savvy bus operator will always have the bus passengers interests at heart. Very few councils have any real concept of what passengers actually want as they have barely any contact with them, Local authorites are concerned with winning votes and staying in power and bus users are rarely seen as pivotal voters so their wants are ignored - just witness the atrocious way that bus services are being treated in the recent round of spending cuts and concessionary fares funding. I have had dealings with the bus units of many local authorities and most of them couldn't organise the proverbial drunken party in a brewery and worryingly few of them have any grasp of just how little knowledge they actually have about how the systems work leading to extra costs as things are done that add extra resource in that with only small differences would not need to be done. The best know the operators are better at this and ask their advice and listen to it when doing things, the worst ignore them and make things worse. In most of those few cases where an authority actually isn't that bad it is the officers on the ground that save them, most of the local councillors involved just make things worse whenever they get near it (I have experienced politicians in the middle of negotiations that would have saved a large supported network at much reduced subsidy announce the withdrawal of bus subsidies that he then couldn't carry through on but in the meantime had derailed the discussions caused months of uncertainty and led to some routes being lost by the time everything had settled down). London works because it is a pain to own or drive a car in London which means there is a much larger captive market of public transport users compared to most areas of the UK and because TfL are able to throw so much money at the problem that none of the users notice just how badly the operation actually serves them, because fares are so low and Smartcards have effectively been forced on everyone through punitive fare differentials people don't notice the cost of having to change buses to reach destinations as services are shortened and rerouted to react to political imperatives, it forces frequencies up as well to avoid customers complaining about their waiting time after having to make their change. A lot of people use First as an example of why deregulation is failing when it is in fact the strongest evidence of the reverse, First forgot this basic tenet that the passenger is the only reason for running a bus company and the only way you can make any money and be a success - they lost sight of this and nearly collapsed, they still haven't recovered from their problems and a lot of this is down to weakness in the UK bus network that is carrying over from issues with the previous regime (the other weak area is the First Student US school bus operation). Quality Contracts aren't the answer, if for no other reason than because these are private assets and no one has the money to pay to take them on, the local authorities are all broke and central government isn't able to release the sort of money necessary to buy even just the commercial routes off operators (and they are private assets with a financial worth, a state seizing private assets without compensation is still theft and the UK government have been very vociferous when foreign governments try such things). We have been through government control of local bus services before - it resulted in large scale passenger falls, loss making bus operations, heavy subsidies and operations that utterly failed to react to changes in customer requirements, nothing I have seen in dealing with local authorities in various parts of the country have led me to believe we would get any changes in this overly bureaucratic and reactionary management that isn't suited to a competitive environment (and the bus industry is in a competitive environment even if you regulate, passengers have a choice of modes - walk, cycle, car, taxi & train - and destinations that mean that you can't simply dictate to most customers as they have a choice). You either throw huge amounts of money at it to make up for the weaknesses or the whole thing is going to be in trouble very quickly.
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Post by rwilkes on Jun 2, 2014 10:26:38 GMT 1
Well said Mr Dwarfer! Some councils, instead of specifying a tendered network, ask bus companies to come up with proposals and saved huge amounts of money this way. A few LAs have cut funding and negotiated better services this way.
First did lose their way but now they have found it and are fighting back. They are a completely different company that they were 5 years ago.
Even 'amateurs' are better than local councils, Dalesbus has more than halved the subsidy per passenger since they took over from NYCC and more than doubled the number of passengers!
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Post by driver6540 on Jun 3, 2014 21:16:01 GMT 1
Interesting post from dwarfer, couldn't possibly disagree with any of it, But relating to the topic of this thread, ie, Leeds trolley buses, which i thoroughly disagree with anyway. I sincerely hope First (or any other operator) chooses not to inflict those goddamn ugly bug-eyed "Borismasters" on Leeds or anywhere else in WY.
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Post by mk2mcw on Jun 15, 2014 20:42:49 GMT 1
Interesting post from dwarfer, couldn't possibly disagree with any of it, But relating to the topic of this thread, ie, Leeds trolley buses, which i thoroughly disagree with anyway. I sincerely hope First (or any other operator) chooses not to inflict those d**n ugly bug-eyed "Borismasters" on Leeds or anywhere else in WY. Would you possibly prefer to see the Optare Metrodecker used (far better looking than the borismaster which as you quite aptly state are bug-eyed and ugly)
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Post by mk2mcw on Jun 15, 2014 20:43:42 GMT 1
Id prefer ANYTHING new to replace half the fleet at bramley!
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Post by mk2mcw on Jun 16, 2014 10:23:47 GMT 1
Id prefer ANYTHING new to replace half the fleet at bramley! Well if you Google Optare Metrodecker you can have a look for yourself and see how decent it looks ive already had a peek it looks pretty good! I could see that on the 110 leeds-wakefield-hall green route!
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Post by timelesstable on Jun 16, 2014 17:44:00 GMT 1
Well if you Google Optare Metrodecker you can have a look for yourself and see how decent it looks ive already had a peek it looks pretty good! I could see that on the 110 leeds-wakefield-hall green route! You never know what might appear on the 110 route one of the new Enviro 200 maybe!!!
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Post by mk2mcw on Jun 16, 2014 19:38:10 GMT 1
ive already had a peek it looks pretty good! I could see that on the 110 leeds-wakefield-hall green route! You never know what might appear on the 110 route one of the new Enviro 200 maybe!!! yeah I think they'd be a good choice for the 110 too!
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Steve Macz403
Forum Member
Waits at the bus stop for his bus, 2 days later bus turns up :D
Posts: 1,678
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Post by Steve Macz403 on Jun 17, 2014 19:14:34 GMT 1
Id prefer ANYTHING new to replace half the fleet at bramley! Don't worry there's some Enviro 400s due for Bramley soon Are they any new buses for the 110, or is it just new enviro 200s and refurbed e400s.
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Post by mk2mcw on Jun 17, 2014 20:48:01 GMT 1
Id prefer ANYTHING new to replace half the fleet at bramley! Don't worry there's some Enviro 400s due for Bramley soon Are they any new buses for the 110, or is it just new enviro 200s and refurbed e400s. one of the bramley mechanics lives in my block he says not as many new buses are coming as we'd like to think
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Post by Craig on Jun 17, 2014 21:07:43 GMT 1
This thread is about the Leeds Trolleybus scheme ONLY.
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Steve Macz403
Forum Member
Waits at the bus stop for his bus, 2 days later bus turns up :D
Posts: 1,678
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Post by Steve Macz403 on Jun 18, 2014 22:54:31 GMT 1
Don't worry there's some Enviro 400s due for Bramley soon Are they any new buses for the 110, or is it just new enviro 200s and refurbed e400s. one of the bramley mechanics lives in my block he says not as many new buses are coming as we'd like to think Despite Lack of trolleybus for the East Leeds Route. ( runs on my part of the route) I think These so Called Borismasters of Leeds could go on 49/50/50A as future buses, they seem like the routes that may end up with High frequency Or demand for 2/3/12/13 routes. Reality there a Hybrid Cummins Engine, VDL chassis and Wright Bodywork.
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Post by Craig on Jul 24, 2014 22:23:07 GMT 1
I can't believe that the Trolleybus (must we use the half-baked NGT moniker?) inquiry has attracted so little debate on this forum! As Mr Wilkes (rwilkes), of the West Yorkshire Campaign for Better Transport, pointed out here above (but it may have been missed by many people), you can listen to the inquiry at www.mixcloud.com/CosmicClaire where recordings from each session of the inquiry are regularly uploaded. There is also a blog by the same person at cosmicclaire.blogspot.co.uk which has links to the same recordings along with brief descriptions of who is the subject of each session and what was discussed. This makes it a little easier than listening to literally hours and hours of recording! It isn't the most fascinating listen I accept, though this depends on your personal taste, but it gives a good insight to what is being said in the inquiry. A lot of the discussions comprise long exchanges of very technical detail which would only appeal to a certain few individuals, but there is a lot more accessible stuff too including some rather interesting and quite revealing exchanges between certain parties. The blog linked above will help guide you if you are interested in just picking through the more stand-out moments, although I must say that in fairness these highlighted moments are essentially those which are not in favour of the promoters (i.e. Metro primarily). Obviously it's not just about the recordings, there's other matters such as First borrowing a Borismaster to create a bit of PR for themselves! In the interests of not trying to steer a debate on here in one direction only, I won't put my own views just yet but it would be interesting to know what everyone here thinks, whether pro- or anti-trolleybus, especially if you have had the time to listen to any of the inquiry, or even if you haven't. Perhaps this is being overly paranoid, but just one thing: For anyone who is related in any way to the inquiry itself, I would kindly ask that you don't post any views or comments, in the interests of not creating anything in the public domain which could harm the inquiry. Discuss...
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Post by davopazza on Jul 25, 2014 9:05:08 GMT 1
I am on the fence with the scheme. I was all for it when I first started seeing publicity around it but since I started working in headingley I have been swayed against it especially after working with local people.
With a bus every 3 minutes into the city, I can't see how the trolley bus would be required and if a cross city service is what's required, why not turn the 6 into a cross city service to follow the full route and that would sort the three door debate.
The other issue I have seen is that the trolley bus will be going straight over where I park my car for work. Slightly selfish I know.
I would much prefer to see a Leeds Underground but I know that will never happen.
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Post by rwilkes on Jul 25, 2014 9:36:00 GMT 1
Davopazza - I hope you are not parking on a bus route!
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Post by davopazza on Jul 25, 2014 15:49:52 GMT 1
Davopazza - I hope you are not parking on a bus route! Don't worry I don't, we have been told our car park behind the arndale centre will become part of the trolley bus route.
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