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Post by Burnside on Oct 8, 2023 18:29:55 GMT 1
Given Rishi promised to use HS2 money to extend Metrolink to Manchester Airport (an extension which actually opened 9 years ago), I don't know whether to be surprised to see Tavistock to Plymouth included in Network North!
Morons.
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Post by chas on Oct 8, 2023 19:30:53 GMT 1
Given Rishi promised to use HS2 money to extend Metrolink to Manchester Airport (an extension which actually opened 9 years ago), I don't know whether to be surprised to see Tavistock to Plymouth included in Network North! Morons. Is the Metrolink extension not to T2? Or did I miss that one opening years ago? |
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Post by deerfold on Oct 8, 2023 20:38:53 GMT 1
Eh? Building a tram network would certainly not end up with bus reductions. There's only a few usable bus routes left in the dystopian bus network in Sheffield, and the ones left with any actual kind of usage combine with the tram network. Manchester, the major towns connected by Metrolink, have the same or usually more BPA than we do between Bradford and Leeds. A tram network would encourage more people to use public transport in general, and that includes buses. It's not a game of one or the other. The Bradford – Guiseley – Ilkley bus corridor was severely reduced after electrification of the Bradford – Guiseley – Ilkley railway line. There's a Bradford – Guiseley bus (A3), but none of the three original routes exist, and there's no Guiseley – Ilkley bus service. When the big Airedale & Wharfedale improvements came in, the buses between Bradford and Guiseley were ones I could catch to school. There was the 650/1 to Ilkley (2bph) (now withdrawn) 653/4 to Otley (some to Harrogate) (3ph) (now withdrawn except for 1 bpd) 655/755 (2bpg) to Leeds (now the 27 Leeds - Guiseley). So Bradford to Guiseley's gone from 7bph to 1bph. |
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Post by stevieinselby on Oct 10, 2023 21:42:25 GMT 1
A tram network in Leeds is only going to push house prices and rents up further. They'll see it as 'you're on a tram network now therefore we'll increase your rent as it's another attraction people will pay a higher amount for, we don't care if you can't afford it as we'll easily find someone who can'. Seriously, Leeds is getting more and more like London, and if you don't believe me a colleague sold her house recently in the roughest part of Harehills for just shy of 200k, you've got seriously high rents of around £650 for a 2 bed in Belle Isle, contrast that with Keighley where you'd probably get double the size of house for that rent. All these improvements do is just push people out of areas, I'd sooner stick with what we've got thanks. "We don't want nice things for our area because it will make it more expensive" is an interesting line to take 🤔 |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Oct 14, 2023 14:30:32 GMT 1
Now that the era of electric buses has arrived, I'm not sure there's much point in new tram lines anymore. We can have bus lanes and electric buses on them. This will provide more flexibility than fixed tram lines. If you ever get the chance, try out the Oldham to Manchester Metrolink. An electric bus with bus lanes would never be able to compete in the slightest Admittedly that line is a converted train line rather than a street tram line. |
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Post by martinsfp on Oct 14, 2023 20:22:17 GMT 1
Regarding tram impacts on bus services, here are some examples from Manchester
20 years ago, Manchester to Oldham buses direct via Oldham Road used to be every 5 minutes on the 82/83 routes. Now there's just an 83 every 15 minutes.
Going back further, it's the same with the Altrincham to Manchester direct bus routes: every 5 minutes on the 263/264 in the 80s, now just a 263 every 15 minutes.
The 86 Chorlton to Manchester: every 5 minutes pre-tram, now every 12 minutes.
Chadderton used to have 6 buses an hour to Rochdale, now there are none, as presumably people prefer to take the tram via Oldham instead of a more direct bus route.
The 109 Wythenshawe Hospital to Manchester: withdrawn after usage fell following the introduction of the Airport line.
I could go on!
An exception is the 135 Manchester to Bury, which continues to be frequent and busy despite being similar to the tram route
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2023 21:05:02 GMT 1
Regarding tram impacts on bus services, here are some examples from Manchester 20 years ago, Manchester to Oldham buses direct via Oldham Road used to be every 5 minutes on the 82/83 routes. Now there's just an 83 every 15 minutes. Going back further, it's the same with the Altrincham to Manchester direct bus routes: every 5 minutes on the 263/264 in the 80s, now just a 263 every 15 minutes. The 86 Chorlton to Manchester: every 5 minutes pre-tram, now every 12 minutes. Chadderton use to have 6 buses an hour to Rochdale, now there are none, as presumably people prefer to take the tram via Oldham instead of a more direct bus route. The 109 Wythenshawe Hospital to Manchester: withdrawn after usage fell following the introduction of the Airport line. I could go on! An exception is the 135 Manchester to Bury, which continues to be frequent and busy despite being similar to the tram route The Oldham Road corridor cuts you mentioned started before the tram got introduced, as by 2005 it was already down to Every 10 Mins (82/3 combined),the train line closed in 2009 & reopened to trams in 2012, with the 82 already cut by then & 83 improved to Every 10 Mins, with the reduction to Every 15 Mins not happening until 2021 after COVID. As for Chadderton to Rochdale, whilst the Tram might of played a part the increase the fact Chadderton has the A627M that can get you into Rochdale in little over 10 minutes. As car ownership has become more & more common, buses was never going to compete with that journey time. The 85/86 combine to run Every 6 Mins & was actually a covid cut from 10 Mins each M-Sat & are still every 20 Mins each Sundays - not too shabby even without a tram if you ask me. The 86 still has M-Fri dupes for the Hulme College & Music College so runs upto every minute at certain points. The 263 had more disadvantages than just simply the tram, in fact I would say during the late 00s/early 10's Stagecoach would of been more of a problem rather than the tram as Stagecoach had a much higher frequency on the Trafford Bar > Manchester section plus was competing between Altrincham & Sale for Manchester passengers with the X41 plus Stagecoach for a long time had the cheapest Weekly ticket out of any of the 3 main Manchester companies. 135 has the advantage of being quicker than the tram for some journeys (E.G Whitfield to Bury) plus goes through central Cheetham Hill whilst the tram is slightly further out. The route I'm most surprised still is as frequent is the 216, after covid is now 12 Mins off-peak & 7/8 Mins Peak times M-Fri as it shares about 90% of it's route running either next to or on top of the tram tracks. |
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Post by rwilkes on Oct 19, 2023 21:22:05 GMT 1
Now that the era of electric buses has arrived, I'm not sure there's much point in new tram lines anymore. We can have bus lanes and electric buses on them. This will provide more flexibility than fixed tram lines. People have more confidence that a tram line is going to stick around rather than a bus route that might be withdrawn with very little notice. The bus change notice period is supposed to provide some protection against this, but it's not unusual to find a bus has been cancelled or the journey you get to work withdrawn with just a few days' notice. That tends not to happen with trams (if there's driver or parts shortages they may reduce frequencies but it's rare for first and last services to be changed). Trams don't stick around if the politics goes against them especially as they need so much subsidy. We used to have trams but central goverment ordered councils to scrap them. There is no sanity in political thinking which is why I prefer greedy capitalists running the buses. Unless its Arriva. |
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Post by deerfold on Oct 19, 2023 21:50:48 GMT 1
People have more confidence that a tram line is going to stick around rather than a bus route that might be withdrawn with very little notice. The bus change notice period is supposed to provide some protection against this, but it's not unusual to find a bus has been cancelled or the journey you get to work withdrawn with just a few days' notice. That tends not to happen with trams (if there's driver or parts shortages they may reduce frequencies but it's rare for first and last services to be changed). Trams don't stick around if the politics goes against them especially as they need so much subsidy. We used to have trams but central goverment ordered councils to scrap them. There is no sanity in political thinking which is why I prefer greedy capitalists running the buses. Unless its Arriva. We've had massive reductions in bus services since 1986. Is that a success? Trams stuck around for decades. When did central government order the scraping of trams? Metrolink runs at an operating profit - it needs subsidy for new lines but not to keep running. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2023 22:19:40 GMT 1
People have more confidence that a tram line is going to stick around rather than a bus route that might be withdrawn with very little notice. The bus change notice period is supposed to provide some protection against this, but it's not unusual to find a bus has been cancelled or the journey you get to work withdrawn with just a few days' notice. That tends not to happen with trams (if there's driver or parts shortages they may reduce frequencies but it's rare for first and last services to be changed). Trams don't stick around if the politics goes against them especially as they need so much subsidy. We used to have trams but central goverment ordered councils to scrap them. There is no sanity in political thinking which is why I prefer greedy capitalists running the buses. Unless its Arriva. I Think times have moved on since we last had trams, as the thinking was at the time that cars would be the future & look how brilliantly that's turned out. Technology has advanced with trams so half the reasons/excuses they came up with at the time to remove them are invalid, plus i'm struggling to think of any tramlines that have closed since 2000 anywhere in Europe that wasn't part of a conversion to a different type of railway. |
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