|
Post by Bradford Traveller on Oct 7, 2023 5:07:13 GMT 1
|
|
WYBS
Forum Member
Watch-o
Posts: 1,489
|
Post by WYBS on Oct 7, 2023 9:10:48 GMT 1
I'll believe it when I see the first tram run through Leeds City Centre. Until then, they remain deceitful, promise-breaking Tory ########.
|
|
|
Post by deerfold on Oct 7, 2023 10:13:18 GMT 1
Including extending Metrolink to Manchester Airport (where it's been since 2014) and Nottingham Trams to Clifton South (which was reached in 2015). (And they can't spell Marian - The Maid "Marion" line is one that's supposed to be being revived, though part of the point was it would link to HS2). It's almost as if this document has just been thrown together in a hurry with any promises a long way off. There's a lot about the poor decisions that have been taken over the last decade. Now, who was in power, then?
|
|
|
Post by peteleeds on Oct 7, 2023 11:22:27 GMT 1
Im 41 now and they been on about a tram system in leeds since i was at primary school. Even did some of road changes ready for it but despite much talk nothing ever happened. I doubt i will see trams in leeds in my lifetime
|
|
|
Post by stephen01 on Oct 7, 2023 12:01:07 GMT 1
I don't get why the hell the Mayor is banging on about Mass transit/trams for WY when it's been proven when ever Metro's suggested in the past especially the recent Trolleybus idea is a failure due to road layouts and conditions. The area is already screwed with endless roadworks and continous botched fixes so Trams/Mass Transit/Trolleybus will not help the situation but make it worse
|
|
|
Post by deerfold on Oct 7, 2023 12:09:39 GMT 1
I don't get why the hell the Mayor is banging on about Mass transit/trams for WY when it's been proven when ever Metro's suggested in the past especially the recent Trolleybus idea is a failure due to road layouts and conditions. The area is already screwed with endless roadworks and continous botched fixes so Trams/Mass Transit/Trolleybus will not help the situation but make it worse Everywhere else with Mass Transit systems tend to see less congestion as people switch mode from cars. Why do you think it would be different in West Yorkshire? I've not seen the Mayor banging on about it anywhere, but I'd hope it'd be a priority for her.
|
|
mattb7tl
Forum Member
Streetlites 🛐
Posts: 743
|
Post by mattb7tl on Oct 7, 2023 12:39:03 GMT 1
I don't get why the hell the Mayor is banging on about Mass transit/trams for WY when it's been proven when ever Metro's suggested in the past especially the recent Trolleybus idea is a failure due to road layouts and conditions. The area is already screwed with endless roadworks and continous botched fixes so Trams/Mass Transit/Trolleybus will not help the situation but make it worse Trams are without a doubt more stable than some other forms of transport infrastructure. Motorways for example always grind to a halt, every rush hour, when you need them the most... and no country has figured out how to prevent that! (you can't) I use Metrolink, around twice a week, sometimes more. Punctual, atleast compared to buses, quicker than most people think, and up until recently cheaper than taking the bus
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2023 13:46:21 GMT 1
West Yorkshire Mass Transit is long overdue & the lack of it especially in Leeds is one of the reasons the roads can be such a mess at rush hour, the fact it's taken HS2 to be axed to get it funded is ridiculous.
The latest railway proposals for Bradford are interesting, as it sounds like a new line direct from Bradford to Huddersfield (possibly using the old Baliff Bridge line?) although I hope they find a better solution than putting a new station the opposite side of Wakefield Rd from the Interchange.
Of course there is still a few issues with the 'Network North'
- Doesn't solve the capacity issues at Leeds, Sheffield & Manchester that HS2 did (well before the Eastern leg got chopped) - local stations won't see an improved service as the existing lines will continue with fast trains mixing with stoppers - Most of it won't happen - Bristol Metro & Leamside Line have already fallen on the scrap heap. I Would bet that a few potholes get filled,£2 bus fare extension & that's about it
I'm just hoping the Tories are only able to sell little to no land so there's a chance after the next election this mess can be reversed.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2023 13:53:37 GMT 1
Including extending Metrolink to Manchester Airport (where it's been since 2014) and Nottingham Trams to Clifton South (which was reached in 2015). (And they can't spell Marian - The Maid "Marion" line is one that's supposed to be being revived, though part of the point was it would link to HS2). It's almost as if this document has just been thrown together in a hurry with any promises a long way off. There's a lot about the poor decisions that have been taken over the last decade. Now, who was in power, then? Whilst poorly worded the expansions are the Metrolink from Manchester Airport to Terminal 2 (about 1/4 of the originally proposed circle line around the HS2 Airport station) & the Nottingham Tram is from Clifton South to the new large housing development/village of Fairham located about a mile away.
|
|
|
Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Oct 7, 2023 15:59:44 GMT 1
Im 41 now and they been on about a tram system in leeds since i was at primary school. Even did some of road changes ready for it but despite much talk nothing ever happened. I doubt i will see trams in leeds in my lifetime Now that the era of electric buses has arrived, I'm not sure there's much point in new tram lines anymore. We can have bus lanes and electric buses on them. This will provide more flexibility than fixed tram lines.
|
|
mattb7tl
Forum Member
Streetlites 🛐
Posts: 743
|
Post by mattb7tl on Oct 7, 2023 16:15:05 GMT 1
Im 41 now and they been on about a tram system in leeds since i was at primary school. Even did some of road changes ready for it but despite much talk nothing ever happened. I doubt i will see trams in leeds in my lifetime Now that the era of electric buses has arrived, I'm not sure there's much point in new tram lines anymore. We can have bus lanes and electric buses on them. This will provide more flexibility than fixed tram lines. If you ever get the chance, try out the Oldham to Manchester Metrolink. An electric bus with bus lanes would never be able to compete in the slightest
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2023 16:32:00 GMT 1
Im 41 now and they been on about a tram system in leeds since i was at primary school. Even did some of road changes ready for it but despite much talk nothing ever happened. I doubt i will see trams in leeds in my lifetime Now that the era of electric buses has arrived, I'm not sure there's much point in new tram lines anymore. We can have bus lanes and electric buses on them. This will provide more flexibility than fixed tram lines. A single tram can carry between 2 & 4 buses worth of passengers (depending on the size) & are proven to have more success with model shift compared to buses (despite what some bus company managers like to make out). From an environmental point of view Steel on Steel is always going to be better compared to rubber tyres that produce around half of the small particle pollution created by road transport (but admitting that would rain on both the bus & car markets parade over going electric). Both reasons are why it's common in Europe that once a bus route or BRT gets to a point the existing fleet cannot cope it gets converted, as there is little point running buses every 2-3 Minutes instead of converting to trams (Headingley/York Rd/Middleton corridors all spring to mind) Of course the key thing to remember here is they've said 'Mass Transit' rather than directly saying tram so there is every chance they might just go for an upgraded bus, going by this governments reputation I'm almost expecting it to be rebranded as FTR2.
|
|
|
Post by deerfold on Oct 7, 2023 16:58:15 GMT 1
Im 41 now and they been on about a tram system in leeds since i was at primary school. Even did some of road changes ready for it but despite much talk nothing ever happened. I doubt i will see trams in leeds in my lifetime Now that the era of electric buses has arrived, I'm not sure there's much point in new tram lines anymore. We can have bus lanes and electric buses on them. This will provide more flexibility than fixed tram lines. People have more confidence that a tram line is going to stick around rather than a bus route that might be withdrawn with very little notice. The bus change notice period is supposed to provide some protection against this, but it's not unusual to find a bus has been cancelled or the journey you get to work withdrawn with just a few days' notice. That tends not to happen with trams (if there's driver or parts shortages they may reduce frequencies but it's rare for first and last services to be changed).
|
|
|
Post by dwarfer1979 on Oct 8, 2023 9:30:04 GMT 1
Now that the era of electric buses has arrived, I'm not sure there's much point in new tram lines anymore. We can have bus lanes and electric buses on them. This will provide more flexibility than fixed tram lines. People have more confidence that a tram line is going to stick around rather than a bus route that might be withdrawn with very little notice. The bus change notice period is supposed to provide some protection against this, but it's not unusual to find a bus has been cancelled or the journey you get to work withdrawn with just a few days' notice. That tends not to happen with trams (if there's driver or parts shortages they may reduce frequencies but it's rare for first and last services to be changed). That is not inherent but is due to societies general snobbery towards buses (the apocryphal Maggie Thatcher quote is emblematic, even if it may not have been said, of how many view buses which is reinforced by politicians & the press) & the fear from politicians of making significant cuts to rail based solutions in recent years but bus funding is up and down on the whims of politicians. Most core bus routes still exist in very similar form to that which has existed for decades, they may have changed terminus or route number and the frequency may fluctuate but the core network is recognisable - I was looking at a map of the bus network of my current home town from 1966 and almost every route shown can be recognised, most have been extended and few route numbers are unchanged but almost all the roads are still served nearly 60 years later. The instability of the bus network is exaggerated in general, though certain geographic areas have had more than others, and tends to be more pronounced outside big cities where entire networks are much more marginal. That said rail offers it advantages on volume or speed, so for trams if you can deploy them on high volume corridors then there is a case to be had as there becomes a point where you are deploying huge resource to move people that can be done more efficiently with effectively fewer trams so fewer staff - which is why I have a low opinion of the very light rail being planned for Coventry where the vehicles have a lower capacity than the buses already running on the corridor they will be deployed on but things like Metrolink & the Leeds Tram (if it ever finally appears) make sense to me. There will be massive disruption whilst it is being built, which can take years, but once it is in it can have a huge impact on busy corridors as long as it is well planned to hit busy flows and well communicated to bring the local population with the project through the disruption.
|
|
|
Post by sharksmith on Oct 8, 2023 12:39:58 GMT 1
Every time I use Metrolink it strikes me just how few seats there are on those trams, I thought the same thing down in the West Midlands earlier this year. I'm quite capable of standing for long periods but an elderly person would struggle with this, especially as trams tend to wallow and sway more than most buses. Supertram is better for seating but many of those seats are up steps to access.
Also, the reason trams are faster is that there are greater distances between stops, so again the elderly and disabled are inconvenienced with more difficulty reaching even the start point of their journey. Once a system is in operation this is likely to result in a large reduction in buses serving intermediate stops as the custom will not be there to have high frequency routes along that corridor. It seems a lose lose for the most vulnerable in society.
I don't understand the rationale for it at all, there will be grief for evertyone while it's being built, car users, public transport users, pedestrians. It just seems to be the usual, 'this area has it so we should have it!'. Proper bus priority with segregated running lanes which are properly enforced, and traffic light priority would go a most of the way to giving the same results.
|
|
joseph
Forum Member
Posts: 1,139
|
Post by joseph on Oct 8, 2023 14:26:24 GMT 1
A tram network in Leeds is only going to push house prices and rents up further. They'll see it as 'you're on a tram network now therefore we'll increase your rent as it's another attraction people will pay a higher amount for, we don't care if you can't afford it as we'll easily find someone who can'. Seriously, Leeds is getting more and more like London, and if you don't believe me a colleague sold her house recently in the roughest part of Harehills for just shy of 200k, you've got seriously high rents of around £650 for a 2 bed in Belle Isle, contrast that with Keighley where you'd probably get double the size of house for that rent. All these improvements do is just push people out of areas, I'd sooner stick with what we've got thanks.
|
|
WYBS
Forum Member
Watch-o
Posts: 1,489
|
Post by WYBS on Oct 8, 2023 15:06:23 GMT 1
A tram network in Leeds is only going to push house prices and rents up further. They'll see it as 'you're on a tram network now therefore we'll increase your rent as it's another attraction people will pay a higher amount for, we don't care if you can't afford it as we'll easily find someone who can'. Seriously, Leeds is getting more and more like London, and if you don't believe me a colleague sold her house recently in the roughest part of Harehills for just shy of 200k, you've got seriously high rents of around £650 for a 2 bed in Belle Isle, contrast that with Keighley where you'd probably get double the size of house for that rent. All these improvements do is just push people out of areas, I'd sooner stick with what we've got thanks. With all due respect Joseph, we'd all still be living in mud huts if we always thought like that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2023 15:28:37 GMT 1
A tram network in Leeds is only going to push house prices and rents up further. They'll see it as 'you're on a tram network now therefore we'll increase your rent as it's another attraction people will pay a higher amount for, we don't care if you can't afford it as we'll easily find someone who can'. Seriously, Leeds is getting more and more like London, and if you don't believe me a colleague sold her house recently in the roughest part of Harehills for just shy of 200k, you've got seriously high rents of around £650 for a 2 bed in Belle Isle, contrast that with Keighley where you'd probably get double the size of house for that rent. All these improvements do is just push people out of areas, I'd sooner stick with what we've got thanks. The examples you give about places nearer to the city centre increasing in price proves the point we should be building better transport networks rather than 'sticking with what we've got'. As demand looks more towards jobs in the city centres, improving links from further out such as Wakefield,Bradford,Spen Valley or despite your hatred - Keighley it means there will be less demand for places on the cities doorstep such as Harehills or Belle Isle. Of course prices will still increase but they will do so at a slower pace than without better transport as it will just result in hundreds of people bidding on each house near to the city inflating prices faster & further.
|
|
mattb7tl
Forum Member
Streetlites 🛐
Posts: 743
|
Post by mattb7tl on Oct 8, 2023 15:47:35 GMT 1
Every time I use Metrolink it strikes me just how few seats there are on those trams, I thought the same thing down in the West Midlands earlier this year. I'm quite capable of standing for long periods but an elderly person would struggle with this, especially as trams tend to wallow and sway more than most buses. Supertram is better for seating but many of those seats are up steps to access. Also, the reason trams are faster is that there are greater distances between stops, so again the elderly and disabled are inconvenienced with more difficulty reaching even the start point of their journey. Once a system is in operation this is likely to result in a large reduction in buses serving intermediate stops as the custom will not be there to have high frequency routes along that corridor. It seems a lose lose for the most vulnerable in society. I don't understand the rationale for it at all, there will be grief for evertyone while it's being built, car users, public transport users, pedestrians. It just seems to be the usual, 'this area has it so we should have it!'. Proper bus priority with segregated running lanes which are properly enforced, and traffic light priority would go a most of the way to giving the same results. Eh? Building a tram network would certainly not end up with bus reductions. There's only a few usable bus routes left in the dystopian bus network in Sheffield, and the ones left with any actual kind of usage combine with the tram network. Manchester, the major towns connected by Metrolink, have the same or usually more BPA than we do between Bradford and Leeds. A tram network would encourage more people to use public transport in general, and that includes buses. It's not a game of one or the other.
|
|
|
Post by tinrocket on Oct 8, 2023 16:42:23 GMT 1
A tram network in Leeds is only going to push house prices and rents up further. They'll see it as 'you're on a tram network now therefore we'll increase your rent as it's another attraction people will pay a higher amount for, we don't care if you can't afford it as we'll easily find someone who can'. Seriously, Leeds is getting more and more like London, and if you don't believe me a colleague sold her house recently in the roughest part of Harehills for just shy of 200k, you've got seriously high rents of around £650 for a 2 bed in Belle Isle, contrast that with Keighley where you'd probably get double the size of house for that rent. All these improvements do is just push people out of areas, I'd sooner stick with what we've got thanks. Probably would push up prices yes, but for me that's when the predicted increase should be taxed to help pay for the tramway.
|
|
|
Post by sharksmith on Oct 8, 2023 17:19:14 GMT 1
Every time I use Metrolink it strikes me just how few seats there are on those trams, I thought the same thing down in the West Midlands earlier this year. I'm quite capable of standing for long periods but an elderly person would struggle with this, especially as trams tend to wallow and sway more than most buses. Supertram is better for seating but many of those seats are up steps to access. Also, the reason trams are faster is that there are greater distances between stops, so again the elderly and disabled are inconvenienced with more difficulty reaching even the start point of their journey. Once a system is in operation this is likely to result in a large reduction in buses serving intermediate stops as the custom will not be there to have high frequency routes along that corridor. It seems a lose lose for the most vulnerable in society. I don't understand the rationale for it at all, there will be grief for evertyone while it's being built, car users, public transport users, pedestrians. It just seems to be the usual, 'this area has it so we should have it!'. Proper bus priority with segregated running lanes which are properly enforced, and traffic light priority would go a most of the way to giving the same results. Eh? Building a tram network would certainly not end up with bus reductions. There's only a few usable bus routes left in the dystopian bus network in Sheffield, and the ones left with any actual kind of usage combine with the tram network. Manchester, the major towns connected by Metrolink, have the same or usually more BPA than we do between Bradford and Leeds. A tram network would encourage more people to use public transport in general, and that includes buses. It's not a game of one or the other. So you really believe that if there is a tram to Headingley every five minutes there will be no effect to the frequency of the 1,6,8,27,28 etc? Where are all of the extra passengers coming from to use these services?
|
|
|
Post by deerfold on Oct 8, 2023 17:24:03 GMT 1
Manchester, the major towns connected by Metrolink, have the same or usually more BPA than we do between Bradford and Leeds. A tram network would encourage more people to use public transport in general, and that includes buses. It's not a game of one or the other. I'm in favour of returning trams to West Yorkshire, but the main service between Oldham and Manchester has fewer than a third the buses it had before the tram arrived with the express route no longer existing. Between Rochdale and Manchester the express service has been withdrawn and the 17 is a little less frequent.
|
|
|
Post by Bradford Traveller on Oct 8, 2023 17:27:26 GMT 1
Every time I use Metrolink it strikes me just how few seats there are on those trams, I thought the same thing down in the West Midlands earlier this year. I'm quite capable of standing for long periods but an elderly person would struggle with this, especially as trams tend to wallow and sway more than most buses. Supertram is better for seating but many of those seats are up steps to access. Also, the reason trams are faster is that there are greater distances between stops, so again the elderly and disabled are inconvenienced with more difficulty reaching even the start point of their journey. Once a system is in operation this is likely to result in a large reduction in buses serving intermediate stops as the custom will not be there to have high frequency routes along that corridor. It seems a lose lose for the most vulnerable in society. I don't understand the rationale for it at all, there will be grief for evertyone while it's being built, car users, public transport users, pedestrians. It just seems to be the usual, 'this area has it so we should have it!'. Proper bus priority with segregated running lanes which are properly enforced, and traffic light priority would go a most of the way to giving the same results. Eh? Building a tram network would certainly not end up with bus reductions. There's only a few usable bus routes left in the dystopian bus network in Sheffield, and the ones left with any actual kind of usage combine with the tram network. Manchester, the major towns connected by Metrolink, have the same or usually more BPA than we do between Bradford and Leeds. A tram network would encourage more people to use public transport in general, and that includes buses. It's not a game of one or the other. The Bradford – Guiseley – Ilkley bus corridor was severely reduced after electrification of the Bradford – Guiseley – Ilkley railway line. There's a Bradford – Guiseley bus (A3), but none of the three original routes exist, and there's no Guiseley – Ilkley bus service.
|
|
mattb7tl
Forum Member
Streetlites 🛐
Posts: 743
|
Post by mattb7tl on Oct 8, 2023 17:42:38 GMT 1
I guess it all comes down to execution and integration. I think there's more examples of bus networks that have benefited from mass transit projects rather than suffered. In and out the country. If we take a look at the map on potential tram routes from the WYCA, every one combines with a bus route in some kind of way.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2023 17:48:03 GMT 1
Eh? Building a tram network would certainly not end up with bus reductions. There's only a few usable bus routes left in the dystopian bus network in Sheffield, and the ones left with any actual kind of usage combine with the tram network. Manchester, the major towns connected by Metrolink, have the same or usually more BPA than we do between Bradford and Leeds. A tram network would encourage more people to use public transport in general, and that includes buses. It's not a game of one or the other. So you really believe that if there is a tram to Headingley every five minutes there will be no effect to the frequency of the 1,6,8,27,28 etc? Where are all of the extra passengers coming from to use these services? Assuming a tram going through Headingley would spur off to continue onto Holt Park/Horsforth & potentially Burley/Otley yes some of the current routes would be lost (or turned into more local routes connecting with trams at certain interchanges). If you look at the traffic going through Headingley & the number of housing served currently by buses but still use alternative means I'd say there is a fairly big base to gain extra passengers from. Even with the less buses (assuming the tram removed services 1/6/8 & possibly X84) you could look at improving the other remaining routes (possibly something like restoring routes 27/8 to their previous 20 Mins frequency each?) Depending on the route the tram takes (off road/on road) you could get a result where trams operate off road taking the majority of the passengers from them areas into Leeds without being held up, The A660 would start to become less congested as model shift happens making it a nicer environment for them that have no alternative but to drive, cyclists, pedestrians whilst also still having a respectable bus frequency of 10Mins on the Leeds > Headingley section for them that would be further away from a tram stop or have mobility issues. Seems like a win/win all round.
|
|