WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Jul 23, 2023 14:11:50 GMT 1
It appears that it has become standard practice in recent years for bus operators to review their networks based on data from ticket machines; which of course log where people get on the route and (if buying a single) where they're travelling to.
Now, I rarely buy single tickets as I use an MCard, however I bought two singles the other day; one to Oldham on the 184 and one back to Huddersfield. Upon looking at the tickets, the outbound journey states 'Valid Huddersfield to Marsden Hard End', and the inbound journey states 'valid Oldham Bus Station to Mumps'. This is of course is just the bus driver pressing whichever stop is in front of him on the machine (maybe through laziness) as the fare will be £2 regardless.
How can data be relied upon when the information recorded is incorrect? On their system I never travelled end to end.
Do you believe that this incorrect data can (and does) contribute to route withdrawals/ cuts?
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Post by jonny182 on Jul 23, 2023 14:38:29 GMT 1
It appears that it has become standard practice in recent years for bus operators to review their networks based on data from ticket machines; which of course log where people get on the route and (if buying a single) where they're travelling to. Now, I rarely buy single tickets as I use an MCard, however I bought two singles the other day; one to Oldham on the 184 and one back to Huddersfield. Upon looking at the tickets, the outbound journey states 'Valid Huddersfield to Marsden Hard End', and the inbound journey states 'valid Oldham Bus Station to Mumps'. This is of course is just the bus driver pressing whichever stop is in front of him on the machine (maybe through laziness) as the fare will be £2 regardless. How can data be relied upon when the information recorded is incorrect? On their system I never travelled end to end. Do you believe that this incorrect data can (and does) contribute to route withdrawals/ cuts? Yes this is a bit of a a data issue with the move towards flat fare systems! Unfortunately tap-on, tap-off doesn't always work either as drivers sometimes end the journey early on the ticket machine and then the data never gets recorded....or passengers are charged full fare for a one or two stage journey when they shouldn't be! Unfortunately I presume it has led to a decision to contribute towards some cuts at the end of routes late at night. I do share your concern here. Much the same issue if a driver isn't willing to take cash payments due to low/no float and just let passengers on for free without recording these passengers properly! |
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Post by leedsbusman on Jul 23, 2023 15:40:34 GMT 1
Operators don’t rely on the alighting data from ticket machines as it isn’t fully accurate for the reasons stated and isn’t collected for the majority of customers (day, week etc and concessions). It’s quite easy to work out an origin and destination pattern just be using boarding data from different directions.
The advent of QR codes and contactless cards makes journey matching much easier too.
Likewise you can quite easily adjust for under recording by isolating data which is off pattern. I’d did such for an operator once identifying a significant number of drivers didn’t record concessionary passes (pre smart days) which encourage them to correct the driver behaviour.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2023 16:38:16 GMT 1
Are drivers no longer using the passenger counter on the ticket machines? As that would probably be the best way to get alighting data during the flat fare offer assuming the driver is correctly entering how many people get on/off at each bus stop.
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Post by stephen01 on Jul 23, 2023 17:15:49 GMT 1
Are drivers no longer using the passenger counter on the ticket machines? As that would probably be the best way to get alighting data during the flat fare offer assuming the driver is correctly entering how many people get on/off at each bus stop. I've seen Arriva & Station Coaches still using it. |
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Post by deerfold on Jul 23, 2023 17:29:47 GMT 1
Are drivers no longer using the passenger counter on the ticket machines? I think driver usage of that has always been variable. |
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Jul 23, 2023 17:31:48 GMT 1
Are drivers no longer using the passenger counter on the ticket machines? As that would probably be the best way to get alighting data during the flat fare offer assuming the driver is correctly entering how many people get on/off at each bus stop. I believe drivers are meant to use it, but often I alight the 60 at Leeds bus station and the ticketer machine will say there are still 70 people on board. |
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Post by arriva1606 on Jul 23, 2023 19:33:55 GMT 1
Are drivers no longer using the passenger counter on the ticket machines? As that would probably be the best way to get alighting data during the flat fare offer assuming the driver is correctly entering how many people get on/off at each bus stop. I believe drivers are meant to use it, but often I alight the 60 at Leeds bus station and the ticketer machine will say there are still 70 people on board. A few weeks ago I got on a 371 with 117 passengers on according to the machine |
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Post by Father Dougal McGuire on Jul 23, 2023 21:07:18 GMT 1
The ticket machine data is good if it is backed up by factual real world evidence when coming to making changes.
In 2019 the 589 Rochdale - Todmorden - Burnley service was withdrawn due to low passenger numbers which simply wasn't the case, following actual real world evidence the following year the 30 min frequency between Rochdale - Todmorden - Burnley was restored in the guise of a 590 every 30 mins and a 591/592 every 30 minutes.
The problem was a lot of passes especially students in Lancashire and System One passes in GM at the time were flash cards/passes which were through several different pages on the ticket machine, then when someone got on with a QR code it reset the ticket machine to the home page so many drivers didn't bother... This would make the data look like there were only a handful of people on these buses at peak times when in reality they were full. Now with 90% of the passes are either QR Coded or on smart cards this isn't as much of a problem although in GM all paper System One tickets and card passes must still be recorded manually on the ticket machine which takes going through 4 different pages which will then revert to the home page once a QR Code or Smart Card is scanned. Personally I will use the Punch function to keep count then take them off and record the type of pass accurately once everyone has boarded.
With the £2 flat fare thing I still chose the correct fare stage for the destination that passengers state - unless they say "Single" then I just do it to the final fare stage that way there is still some degree of accuracy within the data... Probably pointless but I like to try do things properly. My biggest gripe with the £2 fares is having to call people back several times for not taking their tickets because I can't stand having the hanging out of the ticket machine looking untidy or flapping about everywhere if the cab window is open. I think a tap on/off system using purely only a Smart Card & Contactless is the way forward now but the technology needs to be made more robust as the tap off terminals on many buses don't work.
P.S. May I point out many of the pass recordings were not an issue with the old Almex Machines (for not the second company anyway) as there were two rows of buttons along the bottom which corresponded to all the different passes that need to be recorded and it was super quick and easy. The Ticketer on the other hand being a small touch screen isn't the case and they are super slow in warm weather and just in general. I wish they would bring out a new machine possibly similar to the Almex or the VIX Machines Stagecoach Manchester use with actual physical buttons for ease of use.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jul 24, 2023 8:54:36 GMT 1
It isn't common to use alighting data to review routes, generally you use boarding data & then use experience and analysis of what is being reviewed (full or part route & what that comprises) to take a view on how much to allow for returning passengers (full route you don't need to but part route you need to take a view of how much in part travel there is within the section being looked at) as things like season tickets are only recorded on boarding. It is only when the data produces a close figure that you will start really getting into the detail but at that point it would be normal to get feedback from staff on the ground about what is actually happening to sense check what you have got in the system (we all know that not all drivers properly record passes, no matter how easy it is on the machine, and the like which can distort data).
It also needs to be remembered that the term low usage doesn't always mean that the bus isn't carrying anyone but that the income is not enough to pay for the bus (I prefer to use insufficient income for this but not everyone does). If the passengers are all travelling on passes issued by outside organisations (such as TfGM System One) then the reimbursement may be insufficient no matter how many are travelling. Also just because an individual journey is busy doesn't mean the service or working as a whole is, we have just withdrawn a number of full school buses because even with full loads they couldn't cover the wider cost of covering them because there was insufficient income for the rest of the day to top it up.
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