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Post by pjb on Mar 14, 2023 17:05:56 GMT 1
Later this year many Bradford city centre roads including Hall Ings, Market street, Bridge Street are planned to be pedestrianised which will mean massive reroutings for buses to and from the Interchange and also the Broadway areas.
Read today in the local paper that Transdev don’t support the changes as they see no benefit for bus users.
What does First think of the potential changes it will have to make and what are their proposals?
I live on the west of Bradford towards Thornton/Allerton and as far as I can see bus journeys will get massively longer due to the more circuitous routes around the city centre to get to the Interchange, not to mention that there won’t be as many convenient bus stops near to the main city centre area. If I was First I’d at least try to keep Bridge Street and Sunbridge road open as a through route to the west and north of the city for buses along with existing bus stops.
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Mar 14, 2023 17:25:44 GMT 1
I'm glad you created this thread as I had too had queries. I saw a render of a pedestrianised Market Street a few weeks ago. As anyone in Bradford knows, the Market Street stops are very busy; often more people board there than at the Interchange or Hall Ings. Without the buses taking a silly re-routing, I can't see how they will serve Forster Square and the back of the Broadway Centre. I don't know Bradford as well as Leeds but it appears that buses would have to go in front of the Broadway Centre and then take a detour around the tight streets of Little Germany to then get to the bottom of Barkerend Road and to Forster Square or Bolton Road/ Valley Road ect... Attachments:
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Post by Username on Mar 14, 2023 17:31:01 GMT 1
Later this year many Bradford city centre roads including Hall Ings, Market street, Bridge Street are planned to be pedestrianised which will mean massive reroutings for buses to and from the Interchange and also the Broadway areas. Read today in the local paper that Transdev don’t support the changes as they see no benefit for bus users. What does First think of the potential changes it will have to make and what are their proposals? I live on the west of Bradford towards Thornton/Allerton and as far as I can see bus journeys will get massively longer due to the more circuitous routes around the city centre to get to the Interchange, not to mention that there won’t be as many convenient bus stops near to the main city centre area. If I was First I’d at least try to keep Bridge Street and Sunbridge road open as a through route to the west and north of the city for buses along with existing bus stops. Hall Ings isn't being pedestrianised they are only knocking down the car park and making that land a pedestrian area. They aren't going to make a whole dual carriage way pedestrianised. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2023 17:36:31 GMT 1
I'm glad you created this thread as I had too had queries. I saw a render of a pedestrianised Market Street a few weeks ago. As anyone in Bradford knows, the Market Street stops are very busy; often more people board there than at the Interchange or Hall Ings. Without the buses taking a silly re-routing, I can't see how they will serve Forster Square and the back of the Broadway Centre. I don't know Bradford as well as Leeds but it appears that buses would have to go in front of the Broadway Centre and then take a detour around the tight streets of Little Germany to then get to the bottom of Barkerend Road and to Forster Square or Bolton Road/ Valley Road ect... Didn't it get mentioned somewhere in the proposals that Well street would reopen for buses only,so buses leaving the city would use the stops on Leeds Road,left onto Well Street to the bottom of Church bank then either left or right back to their current routes. |
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Post by pjb on Mar 14, 2023 17:48:12 GMT 1
Hall ings is being pedestrianised, after the car park is demolished an open space is being created towards the City Hall. So the bus canopy will shut, and the council is closing Hall Ings to through traffic.
Sunbridge road is also busy for bus stops, again a lot board for Thornton and Allerton and Keighley there as opposed to the Interchange, and will have to make other plans.
Also if buses take longer will first need more drivers or cut services?
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Post by mattb7tl on Mar 14, 2023 19:20:31 GMT 1
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 14, 2023 19:22:18 GMT 1
Rather than fixing the real problems Bradford has, the council think pedestrianising half the city centre will make thousands of people flock to the city centre
How much are they spending doing all this work including changing relatively new areas (the shelter on Hall Ings is fairly new, and Well Street was only remodelled when Broadway was built)
Is Well Street even wide enough for two way buses with pavements?
We’ve already seen anti-bus policy then they closed a lane up Wakefield Road causing buses to the delayed, now they will be even more delayed when all buses are channelled around the central ring road with all the other traffic
It’s not entirely clear where the pick up/drop off/taxi rank for the Interchange is going to be, as apparently all that is being pedestrianised as well
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Post by pjb on Mar 14, 2023 19:48:35 GMT 1
Well street is supposed to be reopened for buses, but I also have doubts how the narrow road will cope with 2 way buses and stops. The bit at the bottom of Church bank can barely take two deckers passing and that’s before that area gets busier.
The end of Kirkgate/Westgate is also very narrow for trying to turn large double and single deckers.
It’s all very poorly thought out and I can’t see a very reliable service operating as well as being off putting to passengers.
Presumably 636/637/607 will all have to turn at the Interchange and miss stops near Hall Ings/Sunbridge road as they won’t be able to access Broadway as per now. 617/618 will have a huge detour via Well street. Other buses won’t be able to access the Hall ings bus canopy.
Don’t forget there’s also a proposal to make the top end of sunbridge road one way outbound near the old TJ Hughes to accommodate a cycle lane, so in addition I presume 607 will have to after coming into town on Sunbridge, turn up Barry street, down Godwin street and then via Princes way and Manchester road to the back of the Interchange? Surely this will make the journey so long and congested it will be unworkable at peak times?
The question is what are First, as the main operator, planning?
Have they spoke to the council about what is workable and do they know what will be happening at all?
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 14, 2023 19:48:46 GMT 1
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Post by pjb on Mar 14, 2023 19:52:06 GMT 1
It’s madness as for the north west of the city buses are going to have to head south away to return north! |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 14, 2023 20:12:17 GMT 1
It’s madness as for the north west of the city buses are going to have to head south away to return north! Unless the suggestion is that they terminate up at the top of town in that new ‘bus hub’ they are building near the soon to be demolished Kirkgate Centre |
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Post by pjb on Mar 14, 2023 20:15:38 GMT 1
It’s madness as for the north west of the city buses are going to have to head south away to return north! Unless the suggestion is that they terminate up at the top of town in that new ‘bus hub’ they are building near the soon to be demolished Kirkgate Centre I hope not as I need to get to Bradford Interchange! And what about the 617/618 being cross Bradford routes Holme Wood BRI Allerton? Can’t see people being happy if the hospital bus route is severed? |
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Post by martinsfp on Mar 15, 2023 1:16:59 GMT 1
Looking at the proposals, the Mon-Sat daytime 607 would come down Sunbridge Road, use the turning circle at the bottom by Aldermanbury, and pick up at the new Goitside bus hub just after the lights at the top of the hill. Journeys to the Interchange would run Godwin St, Princes Way, Manchester Road, Croft St, Nelson St. Not great but not terrible if the pedestrianisation makes the city centre a better place to be. (edit: see the point about the new stop on Kirkgate below, which makes more sense than using the Sunbridge Road turning circle)
Cross-city 617/618/620/621 looks possible via the same route as above.
Journeys to/from the north of the city (662 etc) have a ridiculous skirt round the east of the city centre or could miss out the interchange entirely and pick up at Goitside bus hub - terrible for rail connections.
Bradford is a small city centre to travel around as a pedestrian, so a lot of these changes aren’t massive trade-offs, but some really are.
The new stop on the west end of Kirkgate suggests a loop there for terminating services, so one possibility is a lot of services abandoning the interchange entirely and perhaps a new city centre circular bus route providing a regular connection between hubs…? Perhaps I’m being a bit too optimistic about the bus planning here!
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Post by pjb on Mar 15, 2023 1:43:31 GMT 1
Looking at the proposals, the Mon-Sat daytime 607 would come down Sunbridge Road, use the turning circle at the bottom by Aldermanbury, and pick up at the new Goitside bus hub just after the lights at the top of the hill. Journeys to the Interchange would run Godwin St, Princes Way, Manchester Road, Croft St, Nelson St. Not great but not terrible if the pedestrianisation makes the city centre a better place to be. Cross-city 617/618/620/621 looks possible via the same route as above. You’ve missed that Sunbridge road at the Goitside hub (not a desirable place to wait currently!) is out bound only on the plans not two way as now. Inbound buses will be forced to turn up Barry street to come back down unlike now, and it looks like the only stops are on Godwin Street or Kirkgate, not in a nice area of town. There’s no bus stops shown at the lower end of Sunbridge road at all. Also I don’t think the turning area proposed near Aldermanbury is big enough to turn a full size bus, it’s only as wide as the existing road. It looks like it’s only for cars/taxis. So I can’t see the 607 daytime using that way, and it will be a longer walk towards the Interchange and Broadway shops than now. Currently we can alight at Broadway in the daytime. |
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Post by martinsfp on Mar 15, 2023 1:48:09 GMT 1
Looking at the proposals, the Mon-Sat daytime 607 would come down Sunbridge Road, use the turning circle at the bottom by Aldermanbury, and pick up at the new Goitside bus hub just after the lights at the top of the hill. Journeys to the Interchange would run Godwin St, Princes Way, Manchester Road, Croft St, Nelson St. Not great but not terrible if the pedestrianisation makes the city centre a better place to be. Cross-city 617/618/620/621 looks possible via the same route as above. You’ve missed that Sunbridge road at the Goitside hub (not a desirable place to wait currently!) is out bound only on the plans not two way as now. Inbound buses will be forced to turn up Barry street to come back down unlike now, and it looks like the only stops are on Godwin Street or Kirkgate, not in a nice area of town. There’s no bus stops shown at the lower end of Sunbridge road at all. Also I don’t think the turning area proposed near Aldermanbury is big enough to turn a full size bus, it’s only as wide as the existing road. It looks like it’s only for cars/taxis. So I can’t see the 607 daytime using that way, and it will be a longer walk towards the Interchange and Broadway shops than now. Currently we can alight at Broadway in the daytime. Didn’t think anyone would be reading at this time of night so I’ve been adding to the post above! Yes the route appears to involve looping round via Kirkgate. |
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Post by martinsfp on Mar 15, 2023 1:58:59 GMT 1
The new stop on the west end of Kirkgate suggests a loop there for terminating services, so one possibility is a lot of services abandoning the interchange entirely and perhaps a new city centre circular bus route providing a regular connection between hubs…? Perhaps I’m being a bit too optimistic about the bus planning here! And I should add that this ‘terminate on the edges and have circular services to link the hubs’ was planned in Manchester about 15 years ago but never happened as it was linked to the congestion charge that never happened. It isn’t necessarily a bad idea (especially in a pretty walkable city centre like Bradford) but it’s not applied consistently here if that’s what they had in mind. Buses have clearly been an afterthought. |
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Post by pjb on Mar 15, 2023 2:11:41 GMT 1
* snip* Journeys to/from the north of the city (662 etc) have a ridiculous skirt round the east of the city centre or could miss out the interchange entirely and pick up at Goitside bus hub - terrible for rail connections. Bradford is a small city centre to travel around as a pedestrian, so a lot of these changes aren’t massive trade-offs, but some really are. The new stop on the west end of Kirkgate suggests a loop there for terminating services, so one possibility is a lot of services abandoning the interchange entirely and perhaps a new city centre circular bus route providing a regular connection between hubs…? Perhaps I’m being a bit too optimistic about the bus planning here! Do planners not think people in the Allerton Thornton Clayton areas need access to the interchange for the trains? You mention the 662 but at least passengers on that route have rail stations as alternatives ar the likes of Saltaire or Bingley. Us in west bradford our nearest rail station is the Interchange so it needs to be served - I commute onward towards York and Manchester by rail regularly and I don’t want to have my journey elongated even more. And in poor weather it won’t be ideal to have to walk across the city between modes. Transdevs 67 from keighley also comes in via Sunbridge road and will have a presumed detour via Barry street and back down again. Im also concerned at the volume of traffic expected to be rerouted via the Manchester road / croft street junction which is congested as it is without even more buses and cars using it. It looks like even the 72/x6 won’t be able to use the stop outside Broadway but will have a very zig zag route via vicar lane. Well street actually shows no bus stops for most of its length and is shown as a single carriageway except for the right area towards the cathedral end. The poor bus drivers will be getting arm ache from all the hair pin turns the buses will have to negotiate round the city. Can a full size bus actually turn from Westgate to Kirkgate? That’s very tight now for cars! The biggest thing of all for me is that almost none of the proposed bus hubs are actually more convenient for passengers than the existing stops around Markey Street/Sunbridge Road and Broadway! So how can that encourage bus use! |
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Post by Burnside on Mar 15, 2023 7:37:07 GMT 1
Yet again it appears WYCA have zero clue.
Bradford is extremely hilly and having stops in multiple parts of the city centre for most bus routes makes it easier and more convenient for passengers, especially those with reduced mobility.
Who in their right mind would think it a good idea to have buses from Shipley, Keighley, Allerton and Thornton terminate short somewhere near the top of town, making it harder to get to the Broadway or the Interchange?
And, yes, for Rail connections, there are other stations on some of those routes, but there's also no through line, meaning someone getting the train to Blackpool or Grand Central to London will be inconvenienced, not to mention that the Interchange also sees National Express and Flixbus coach services.
It is a ridiculous hair brained scheme that will create massive disruption to bus users.
If they really want to reduce traffic through the city centre, fine, but not at the expense of buses or their passengers.
Bradford is already seen as Leeds' poorer relation. This will kill it completely.
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Post by rwilkes on Mar 15, 2023 10:22:42 GMT 1
I agree it is a really stupid idea and I hope people will write to councillors andhte T & A
Pedestrainisation is a good thing but this scheme wil exclude cars and buses so who will come?
Bradford council is virulently anti bus
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Post by pjb on Mar 15, 2023 13:21:23 GMT 1
I agree it is a really stupid idea and I hope people will write to councillors andhte T & A Pedestrainisation is a good thing but this scheme wil exclude cars and buses so who will come? Bradford council is virulently anti bus A worry is that the consultations have already been had regarding the pedestrianisation in the last year but the general population who actually use buses have no idea that it is going to happen. It seems that the ones wanting it to happen are not actually local bus users in many cases. And there’s been very little said about the downsides of these road closures in the media. As stated in yesterdays local T&A paper Transdev don’t support it but will the council listen to concerns and amend plans now? And what has First said to Bradford council? I’m surprised First are not more vocal as they will be affected most out of all the bus companies. Also just thought a lot of drivers walk from the interchange depot to get on buses for shifts at Broadway and Hall Ings, currently only a couple of minutes walk from the Interchage, are they going to be expected to walk up to the top of town to take a bus in future? And the whole point of a transport interchange is that services connect and are smooth, I fully agree that buses should be able to travel and connect quickly to the trains at Bradford Interchange not terminate short. It seems that the council has lost sight of what the bus/rail interchange is supposed to do. |
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Post by stephen01 on Mar 15, 2023 13:31:17 GMT 1
I agree it is a really stupid idea and I hope people will write to councillors andhte T & A Pedestrainisation is a good thing but this scheme wil exclude cars and buses so who will come? Bradford council is virulently anti bus A worry is that the consultations have already been had regarding the pedestrianisation in the last year but the general population who actually use buses have no idea that it is going to happen. It seems that the ones wanting it to happen are not actually local bus users in many cases. And there’s been very little said about the downsides of these road closures in the media. As stated in yesterdays local T&A paper Transdev don’t support it but will the council listen to concerns and amend plans now? And what has First said to Bradford council? I’m surprised First are not more vocal as they will be affected most out of all the bus companies. Also just thought a lot of drivers walk from the interchange depot to get on buses for shifts at Broadway and Hall Ings, currently only a couple of minutes walk from the Interchage, are they going to be expected to walk up to the top of town to take a bus in future? And the whole point of a transport interchange is that services connect and are smooth, I fully agree that buses should be able to travel and connect quickly to the trains at Bradford Interchange not terminate short. It seems that the council has lost sight of what the bus/rail interchange is supposed to do. And TLC as well. |
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Post by Username on Mar 15, 2023 14:57:28 GMT 1
This thread should be moved to the main buses one because it's not First that are only involved.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 15, 2023 19:20:56 GMT 1
Do you think car users will park sensibly enough to allow full sized buses to turn from Westgate to Kirkgate, and then you’ve got people waiting at a so called ‘bus hub’ alongside all the scruffy boarded up shops on that street.
They are putting an awful lot of pressure on the Manchester Road/Croft Street junction, and it’s quite ludicrous the number of roads that are becoming dead ends, as pointed out even the bit of Hall Ings they are keeping open can’t be used by buses, because there is no connection to Bridge Street
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Post by pjb on Mar 15, 2023 23:14:11 GMT 1
Do you think car users will park sensibly enough to allow full sized buses to turn from Westgate to Kirkgate, and then you’ve got people waiting at a so called ‘bus hub’ alongside all the scruffy boarded up shops on that street. They are putting an awful lot of pressure on the Manchester Road/Croft Street junction, and it’s quite ludicrous the number of roads that are becoming dead ends, as pointed out even the bit of Hall Ings they are keeping open can’t be used by buses, because there is no connection to Bridge Street Fully agree with all your comments. I really do feel this is serious enough that discussions need to be held urgently with the council and bus companies about the potential impact and unworkable nature of plans. If they’d at least leave Bridge Street- sunbridge road open to buses and the Bridge street hall ings to leeds road part open it would be just about manageable. But in current form it will be chaos. |
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Post by joseph on Mar 16, 2023 7:27:11 GMT 1
Oh yes, nice one councillors, people are now going to flock to already run down parts of Bradford just because it's pedestrianised, they'll come just for the hill walk and throw money on the streets for the path sweeper to collect. Pedestrianisation only works in places where you can have quick access to a sizeable car park and bus stops. Look at Morley, went down hill when Queen Street got pedestrianised, bus stops moved down a hill and limited car parking, did they expect people to walk and cycle to the shops? The part pedestrianisation of Morley Bottoms hasn't helped either, and it's costing me more in a taxi when I come from Asda down to Beeston as it's having to access Churwell Hill the longer way round! That's a great way of helping the local economy, make people travel further. |
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