Bus vandalism

[pub146g]

Not wanting to derail the ‘Spotted’ thread with my response to Josephs, err quite colourful post regarding vandalism I decided to post it here. Anyway the mod stepped in before I had chance to anyway.

Normally I just gloss over the usual anti First drivel that gets posted on this forum and the general tone of Josephs posts is that it’s always First’s fault no matter what he’s discussing and this is where I disagree. Vandalism on buses has become increasingly present and visible over the past 35 years or so, maybe earlier if you include the felt tip pen brigade scribbling all over the bus seats and backs that we saw in the 70’s & 80’s. Then in the late 90’s early 00’s we had scratching, scribing, and etching windows, usually in the form of tagging which the perpetrators saw as a form of self and public recognition and I remember in Leeds almost all the 04 plate Gemini B7TLs and some ALX’s had the tag ‘Barry’ in a stylised font etched into the upper saloon rearmost nearside window causing permanent damage. Etching mainly died out, at least in Leeds over 10 years ago so I don’t know where Joseph has seen it recently, I certainly haven’t.

Another form of vandalism on the increase is the “little darlings” throwing stones/rocks at buses, potentially putting lives at risk and this might get councillors and police involved but the problem is always ever present in some location. Just a few random headlines from recent local news publications emphasises this :

1. Buses cut off Leeds Swarcliffe estate as yobs terrorise drivers

2. Keighley yobs caught on video laughing as they smash bus shelter to pieces

3. Bricks and stones thrown at buses in fortnight of "mindless vandalism" endangering drivers and passengers in Halton Moor and Middleton

4. Leeds estate where residents are left in fear of gangs of thugs attacking buses (Whinmoor)

5. Vandals who smashed the window of a primary school bus in Harrogate are being hunted by police

Now, you may wonder why I’ve mentioned all this and it’s because some of what Joseph says I actually agree with in terms of certain areas of Leeds but here’s the rub; how do you stop it? Vandalism, bus or any other is a national problem of wider society and yet Joseph says simply “the bus company should super clamp down on them by banning them”.  Easy as that eh?  How would that be effected? In the case of say somebody breaking a USB socket first of all they would need to be challenged and identified – not easy. A national study of perceptions of anti-social behaviour on public transport in England conducted for the DfT in 2008 found that 76 per cent claimed to have witnessed anti-social behaviour/vandalism on public transport but failed to report it for fear of what the perpetrator/s might do. I dare say that if somebody is successfully identified they could be banned from buying a mobile ticket but how could you stop them paying a cash fare? Are you suggesting something like a rogues gallery attached to the Ticketer?

Having said all this, the suggestion that Leeds is overrun with vandalised buses is a vast exaggeration, I’m retired now but still use buses daily, mostly Hunslet Streetdecks on 2/3/12 etc and I haven’t seen scratched windows, burnt seats (although I think he means seat backs) or smashed USBs. Not saying there aren’t the odd one or two but not this idea that it’s every bus. Regarding stained seats the only ones I’m aware of are some of the Geminis but this is down to their age and the well discussed lack of midlife refurbishment so not really relevant to this.

Finally, don’t think this is just a local issue – just do a Google search on Bus vandals and you will find stacks of similar cases from north of Scotland to the South of England indicating it’s not as easy to address as suggested.

[yorkshireridet]

In the early 70s I took a brand new Leyland atlantean that had just been delivered and still had the builders stickers on the windows on a school special.You would have not believed the state of it when I arrived at the school.Went straight to see the headmaster on arrival at the school but never heard no more so vandalism has been going a long while and not always done by so called chavs.The most worrying aspect is brick throwing at windows as the outcome could be very serious if not fatal

[SCH117X]

There was some concern expressed over Blazfields decision to leather seat etc the 2013 Geminis for the 36 and one did get wrecked to some extent by some idiot from Ripon

[martinsfp]

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember that around 1997-ish, the 608/609 Greengates Circular in Bradford had to omit Ravencliffe for quite a long time in the evenings due to vandalism. As I recall, they even introduced renumbered evening services as 688 to denote not serving Ravenscliffe. That’s the most significant longer-term action I’ve seen taken as a result of vandalism

[Deleted]

Wasn't vandalism and/or staff abuse one of the reasons Arriva pulled its services from Bradley & reroute them direct via Leeds Rd into Huddersfield?

[driver6540]

Jul 16, 2022 18:51:56 GMT 1 @cp2012 said:

Wasn't vandalism and/or staff abuse one of the reasons Arriva pulled its services from Bradley & reroute them direct via Leeds Rd into Huddersfield?

Yes, i believe that's correct. It's a good few years now since the 202/3 were re-routed away from Bradley Keldregate. Could be wrong, but i think only First's 328 serve's there now.

[SCH117X]

[Username]

Aug 4, 2022 21:32:53 GMT 1 SCH117X said:

Can't believe they would vandalised a Transdev bus of all operators. Even if the public is spoiled with latest spec buses the public seem to take it for granted. 

[joseph]

The trouble is this country is far too soft on crime, anybody throwing any heavy object at a bus should be done for attempted murder because that object will easily kill someone if it hits them directly and hard enough, but no it's just seen as a petty crime. I remember someone up Middleton was seriously injured after a rock hit them through a bus window. I also wish bus companies would seriously persue those who vandalise anything on their vehicles or bus stations and are old enough to be sued for damage caused, with all legal costs also paid by the criminal as well. Would send out a serious beyond any doubt message not to mess with us!

Finally, bus companies should withdraw all services through estates for even one incident until the culprit is caught, you'd soon see this criminal coverup culture of not grassing on estates overturned when they realise they have a long walk to the nearest bus lol. Yes the last may cost bus companies income, but many on these estates still need a bus so will walk down to the nearest one, e.g. if Belle Isle Road has an issue then don't serve it, instead turn the bus at Hunslet and have it run via Wakefield Road and Sharp Lane leaving the whole of Belle Isle unserved, harsh on some, but you wouldn't half see people suddenly grassing the brainless up!

[dwarfer1979]

It does depend how embedded bus use is in the community involved, in my experience in medium sized cities the areas with the biggest issue on bus attacks are not in the poor working class estates with the more general antisocial behaviour issues but in the slightly more affluent middle-class areas - you suspect this is affected by whether people they know use the bus (you are less likely to attack a vehicle where your friends, neighbours or even family members may be on the vehicle) though this theory may fall apart in areas of true deprivation where bus use is lower due to people not being able to afford to use them or have any reason to go anywhere. In these areas removing the bus doesn't create a huge reaction as reliance is low, it does help as it means the kids (& it usually is kids) go off to do something else so when the buses return they have found something else to do for a bit. I have worked for a company that saw some success in removing buses (over 15-years ago now), they were experiencing attacks in mid-afternoon (from younger kids just home from middle school) who were putting obstructions in the road to slow the bus so they could stone it. The company removed the buses out of the small estate involved from 1500 as a result, this was deliberate as it meant the first journey withdrawn was the school journey via the secondary school which meant the older kids had to walk in from the main road - within two days we got a message from the community that the miscreants had been identified and dealt with and that it would never happen again (& it didn't whilst I was there and I hadn't heard of it being a problem since), no one was 'grassed up' but the problem was addressed. That only worked as it was family members affected by the results of the actions, the issue is where this is less ingrained, the family & friends aren't really aware an issue is arising to worry about what they are doing to get to a position where they may react.

With modern higher-def CCTV both inside and out it should be easier to get useable pictures of who is doing it - though the off-bus attacks tend to be ambushes and the perpetrators are often hiding until the last minute so aren't always easy to identify on the limited views the bus can give. The one thing that is really needed is for the police to react quicker when buses are involved (incidents with passengers on buses are often let go simply because we all know that the police won't rush out for a bus so the delay makes the minor issues - like fare evasion - not worth the delay) and for them to react to the first incident, not wait for a number. Some forces are better than others but it is patchy, some authorities use Trojan Buses where a bus is loaded with police officers and then driven through problem areas to catch them at it.

[WYBS]

Aug 5, 2022 6:03:41 GMT 1 joseph said:

The trouble is this country is far too soft on crime, anybody throwing any heavy object at a bus should be done for attempted murder because that object will easily kill someone if it hits them directly and hard enough, but no it's just seen as a petty crime. I remember someone up Middleton was seriously injured after a rock hit them through a bus window. I also wish bus companies would seriously persue those who vandalise anything on their vehicles or bus stations and are old enough to be sued for damage caused, with all legal costs also paid by the criminal as well. Would send out a serious beyond any doubt message not to mess with us!

Finally, bus companies should withdraw all services through estates for even one incident until the culprit is caught, you'd soon see this criminal coverup culture of not grassing on estates overturned when they realise they have a long walk to the nearest bus lol. Yes the last may cost bus companies income, but many on these estates still need a bus so will walk down to the nearest one, e.g. if Belle Isle Road has an issue then don't serve it, instead turn the bus at Hunslet and have it run via Wakefield Road and Sharp Lane leaving the whole of Belle Isle unserved, harsh on some, but you wouldn't half see people suddenly grassing the brainless up!

At the end of the day they're usually bored kids aged 12 to 16. Their parents don't know or care where they are. Of course if we look around, society is heading down the toilet at an alarming rate, in my opinion no amount of policing can make a difference. The companies just don't have the time or money to persue these scrotes. In the words of Monty Python: 'Crucifixion's too good for em sir'.

There was a group of 3 throwing traffic cones at the bus I was about to get on one night in Leeds bus station. The driver couldn't do much so I went out and shouted a few choice words at them and they scarpered.

[Father Dougal McGuire]

The evening service on the 590 used to operate via Stansfield and many drivers refused to go up due to vandalism so much so all the passengers knew and waited down at the bottom on the main road.

[Burnside]

Aug 23, 2022 21:54:06 GMT 1 martinsfp said:

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember that around 1997-ish, the 608/609 Greengates Circular in Bradford had to omit Ravencliffe for quite a long time in the evenings due to vandalism. As I recall, they even introduced renumbered evening services as 688 to denote not serving Ravenscliffe. That’s the most significant longer-term action I’ve seen taken as a result of vandalism

I don't remember the change of service number, but I seem to recall you being correct about the embargo on Ravenscliffe.

Think it was a combination of onboard vandalism, attacks with rocks, drivers being robbed and, possibly, even an attempt at arson, but that may be my fuzzy memory thinking of something else.

It has long been a trouble spot (not surprising considering it's a sh*thole!)

[deerfold]

Aug 5, 2022 9:55:16 GMT 1 WYBS said:

Aug 5, 2022 6:03:41 GMT 1 joseph said:

The trouble is this country is far too soft on crime, anybody throwing any heavy object at a bus should be done for attempted murder because that object will easily kill someone if it hits them directly and hard enough, but no it's just seen as a petty crime. I remember someone up Middleton was seriously injured after a rock hit them through a bus window. I also wish bus companies would seriously persue those who vandalise anything on their vehicles or bus stations and are old enough to be sued for damage caused, with all legal costs also paid by the criminal as well. Would send out a serious beyond any doubt message not to mess with us!

Finally, bus companies should withdraw all services through estates for even one incident until the culprit is caught, you'd soon see this criminal coverup culture of not grassing on estates overturned when they realise they have a long walk to the nearest bus lol. Yes the last may cost bus companies income, but many on these estates still need a bus so will walk down to the nearest one, e.g. if Belle Isle Road has an issue then don't serve it, instead turn the bus at Hunslet and have it run via Wakefield Road and Sharp Lane leaving the whole of Belle Isle unserved, harsh on some, but you wouldn't half see people suddenly grassing the brainless up!

At the end of the day they're usually bored kids aged 12 to 16. Their parents don't know or care where they are. Of course if we look around, society is heading down the toilet at an alarming rate, in my opinion no amount of policing can make a difference. The companies just don't have the time or money to persue these scrotes. In the words of Monty Python: 'Crucifixion's too good for em sir'.

There was a group of 3 throwing traffic cones at the bus I was about to get on one night in Leeds bus station. The driver couldn't do much so I went out and shouted a few choice words at them and they scarpered.

We do seem to have gone back to there being very little for them to do that's not very expensive.

[joseph]

The latest acts from the no good to life brainless sees journeys on the 14 being attacked in...... wait for it...... Logic Business Park! With all that CCTV and a number of big name firms up there now seeing employees unable to get a bus safely you'd think one of them would take action. Fantastic ad for Leeds, have a hard day at work and get bricked on the way back! I think if Amazon threatened to move out of Leeds unless the council made the criminals and their no good families homeless, they'd do something then! A serious get really tough approach Ray Mallom style is what's needed to stamp out this unruly nonsense once and for all, no doubt created by parents who are crap at their parenting job. Going off topic, but bringing up kids the right way is very easy, it's called being respectful to them and drilling respect into them, as well as a desire to get what they want and achieve their goals from life. Never mind the nonsense of bored kids syndrome, shouldn't every parent be drilling it into every kid 'how can I better myself and not live the council chav life on this awful estate where my house is crap and so too are the streets'.

[mattb7tl]

I wanted to give you all a heads up about something that's been happening lately, and it's starting to become a real issue on our buses. People have been using these gel blaster guns and taking their fun a little too far by randomly shooting gel at passengers on the bus.

I've personally witnessed this happening on two different buses in the past month, and it's definitely a safety concern. I thought it would be important to share this info with you all since we have a mix of drivers and other folks on this forum.

Not particularly bus vandalism, but a new thread for this heads up seemed silly, and this seemed like the most appropriate thread for this post.

[Deleted]

Wonder if vandalism is the reason why Arriva stopped operating the 177 especially on an evening, as saw quite a few e200minis with damaged windows. Certainly don't blame Arriva for not wanting to do it, if vandalism is the reason, as buses could be out for a while and drivers off work if they get assaulted.

[Username]

The Rye Lanes during the late evenings was a nightmare for drivers. Apparently some kids on Rye Lane used to fiddle with engine buttons at the turning circle so that's probably the reason why there are no journeys after nine.

[rwilkes]

Jul 15, 2022 21:31:39 GMT 1 SCH117X said:

There was some concern expressed over Blazfields decision to leather seat etc the 2013 Geminis for the 36 and one did get wrecked to some extent by some idiot from Ripon

At that time Transdev were being very proactive with CCTV and the criminals had to pay for the repairs.
In one case two lads urinated upstairs on a new 36 and had to pay for a deep clean.
So bus companies can help themselves to some extent.
But we need more police and more things to do for youths. It pays for its itself

[Username]

Aug 14, 2023 9:27:27 GMT 1 rwilkes said:

Jul 15, 2022 21:31:39 GMT 1 SCH117X said:

There was some concern expressed over Blazfields decision to leather seat etc the 2013 Geminis for the 36 and one did get wrecked to some extent by some idiot from Ripon

At that time Transdev were being very proactive with CCTV and the criminals had to pay for the repairs.
In one case two lads urinated upstairs on a new 36 and had to pay for a deep clean.
So bus companies can help themselves to some extent.
But we need more police and more things to do for youths. It pays for its itself

I think that's a very good idea to sort vandalism by making the vandals learn their lesson.

[Deleted]

Yes, bus companies shouldn't have to pay to get the buses fixed, it should be down to the parents to pay to fix it, and make the kids do some community service, I wonder how many services in WY alone, over the years, have withdrawn or diverted routes away because of vandals?

I can think of organisation in Yorkshire who should help youths find things to do and get them away from doing this sort of thing, they're only in certain areas, and only do it with funding from the Lottery Fund

[kendall17]

Aug 14, 2023 9:27:27 GMT 1 rwilkes said:

Jul 15, 2022 21:31:39 GMT 1 SCH117X said:

There was some concern expressed over Blazfields decision to leather seat etc the 2013 Geminis for the 36 and one did get wrecked to some extent by some idiot from Ripon

At that time Transdev were being very proactive with CCTV and the criminals had to pay for the repairs.
In one case two lads urinated upstairs on a new 36 and had to pay for a deep clean.
So bus companies can help themselves to some extent.

Unless there is clear evidence of an act taking place on board and the person conducting the act has boarded by app, then there's very little that can be proven.

Similarly, adding extra police is great, but there has to be clear evidence and the culprit needs to be named, otherwise there's going to be zero chance of prosecution.