NGT - Yes or No?

[Craig]

What are your thoughts on the NGT (trolleybus) proposals for Leeds? A great financial benefit for the region, essential for commuters and bringing jobs and business to the area? Or an expensive white elephant, costing too much money at a time when the country can't afford it?

Please vote as the more votes we get the more accurate the results.

As well as voting please add any comments below.

[kendall17]

Places within Yorkshire where the money could be spent:
1) Improving Leeds' bus network
2) Improving York's P&R system
3) Improving train links in the region (more stock)
The list continues.

[timelesstable]

I don't think it is either the right project or the right time even if it was fully justified.

Like Kendall says there are other local "Yorkshire" projects where the money could be better spent delivering quicker result, improved payback and providing overall better value for money.

I see this scheme of only limited value to those directly adjacent to the routes.

Take the Sheffield super-tram scheme great if you live on any of the routes but there are vast swathes of the city where there isn't any sign of the things

[angrycommuter]

It would be a terrible waste of money to simply have an electric bus. Metro should be looking at improving the current transpost network across the whole region. Installing many more bus lanes in towns and cities would increase ridership if buses could be guaranteed to be on time and arrive quicker than the same car journey.

Examples could include Dewsbury to Ravensthorpe where 9 buses an hour (11 if you include 254) get stuck for up to 15-20 minutes at peak times. The route from Leeds to Headingley could have more miles of bus lanes installed in both directions.

£200m+ could also enable elctricfication of some more miles of track or allow Northern to lease many, many more carriages/units to help stop the terrible overcrowding on most routes.

[fwybuses]

Oct 29, 2010 10:28:23 GMT 1 angrycommuter said:

. The route from Leeds to Headingley could have more miles of bus lanes installed in both directions.

From Hyde Park Corner to Headingley, all the ex-grammer school buildings are listed buildings so therefore cannot be removed. You can't widen the road either side, as like i say on one side you have listed buildings on the other residential streets/homes for the students. The only thing that they could possibly do is, keep the NGT lane plans around the back of headingley, and turn it into a bus lane instead. Would make it easier, as it takes a good 10 - 15 minutes to get through headingley traffic lights.

[Jack]

It's a bit of a catch 22 situation on whether DfT approves the scheme as already millions will have been spent on consultation and design of the scheme.

Bus lanes would be good, however I'm sure you wouldn't be a fan if it went outside your house which could result in restrictions in parking availability. If people tick no on the consultation document for the proposed TROs associated with the bus lane.

Don't forget also that it is Metro that usually make the suggestions to the local highways authority where they would like a bus lane. However, the onus is placed on the local highways authority through the Traffic Management Act to ensure that traffic flows aren't seriously impeded through any new TRO. So, if you wanted a new bus lane along Headingley Lane and caused congestion through reduced road space for general traffic, some traffic may chose Victoria Road and other side streets as an alternative route to avoid the traffic. Some form of traffic modeling would probably pick this up so would make the scheme not feasible.

If you look at Burley Road near YTV where the bus lane was introduced a few years back, there were general highway improvements along with the bus lane where the road runs a lot smoother as a result.

[westyorkshirebus]

It should be pointed out that to get capital investment from the government there needs to be a clearly defined major project.

Therefore it is a choice between the trolleybuses or nothing. You aren't going to get funding for something vague like some bus lanes.

You also can't force bus operators to improve bus services if bus lanes were built. The Scott Hall Road corridor has been messed around with just like all the others, even with the guided bus lane.

[mollman]

Shouldn't there be a "Bring back the Tram" option?

[T101VWU]

i think its a stupid idea at this time considering the amount of traffic so far that runs between leeds & headingley & im sure having these trolleybuses will just cause even more congestion!!

[Matty]

Well no because it will be taking more cars off the road because people will want a fast convinient way of travelling.

[fwybuses]

Not really. Well not at first because they will be doing work on it. So its kinda like make more to take less away. BUT also they are only serving upto Lanswood. Whats the point of that? ...

Bodington hall will become a park & ride and they serve that. So they are solving on problem causing another. Although the ring road and multi carriage otley road at lanswood will probably be able to cope.

[Jack]

Obviously, NGT is going to cater for everybody's needs in where they want to travel. The Park & Ride will remove some car trips into Leeds City Centre for those that travel in from the furthest parts of the hinterland. How is it going to cause problems though Nick (fwybuses) which you appear to suggest!?

For the Park & Ride to work, the NGT vehicles are going to have some form of segregation from general traffic for the majority of the trip so the 'in-vehicle time' looks more attractive compared to the part of the journey that would have other wise being made by car.

[angrycommuter]

Park and Ride facilities in West Yorkshire are generally bad when compared to other cities like York. Some of this money could have gone towards turning "normal" rail stations into Park and Ride sites.

[stevieinselby]

I just can't see what a trolleybus could offer that a conventional bus can't. More priority measures and designated roadspace for conventional buses will benefit more people for a fraction of the cost. The fixed infrastructure makes trolleybuses inflexible to changing demands of passengers, and is ridiculously expensive for what you get out of it.

[mjn]

People always go on about inflexibility towards changing demands, but that is an enormous red herring. For one thing, it is hardly likely that demand on major city centre corridors will suddenly evaporate is it? For another, the road network itself has rather failed to keep up with changing demand if you look at the congestion of it (as with railways), especially in urban areas due to it being somewhat difficult to just rebuild it, but this doesn't mean we should do away with them. Such an argument just makes no sense to me.

[guyarab]

I would have liked to see trolleybuses running in the area once again, but think the money would be better spread around the county, so I have gone for "not sure".

[Steve Macz403]

I voted yes for the scheme, i would like to see something new.

But the trolleybus scheme seems a waste especially for East Leeds, I thought this was going to run the original Tram line 3 Route to Whinmoor, via Harehills, Easterley road,Seacroft, but instead cut bad to run to St James Hospital, A bit wasted if only going to be used by hospital staff and people. Would gain so much more appeal if it ran to Whinmoor, plus would gain the profit back from the extension, as it would have served large areas of Eastern Leeds.

Can say the same for the south Leeds Stourton , other than factory workers, who else is going to use it. The original Tram proposed line to Middleton, would have been a viable option.

Heres a link with the proposed Original SuperTram Route

www.railway-technology.com/projects/leeds/images/leeds1.jpg

Heres the link for NGT route, just notice The St James link still hasnt been DFT approved, which means the hospital could lose out

www.ngtmetro.com/NR/rdonlyres/02DDE21B-FE64-4082-86B2-60C1C2A7B0CD/0/programme_entry_ngt_network_map.jpg

[kendall17]

Was listening to Radio 5 today and they had a bit of snippets of what was said in the Commons today. There was a question regarding the Trolleybus put to the PM and he seemed to push it aside and sweep it inder the carpet as though to say that it wasn't going to happen.

[uww2x]

What is the point in a trolley bus. Seriously it's only a bus with overhead cables. They have hybrid buses these days so no need for all these fancy cable cars.

[danielnew]

How about double decker trolleybuses with two doors that way - road space allocation reduced, less pollution, less congestion, reduced dwell times and add park & ride at Boddington, or just go for Hybrids which are more flexible, cheaper and incorporate these features. The traffic should be diverted in Headingley around the back of the Arndale leaving the trolleybus to run in front of it and the extensions to Middleton & Seacroft should be incorporated. If the service was reliable most students would leave their cars behind as it would be more convenient for us as parking and congestion are an issue around the University and from my perspective as a volunteer at the Middleton Railway we would love to see the tram scheme back on the table with the possibility of opening opportunities to serve Middleton and Hunslet.

[mjn]

I don't think there are any double-decker trolleybuses in service anywhere on earth, never mind models still being manufactured, so I think developing one just for a small system in Leeds would be prohibitively expensive.

As for your arguments in favour of it, they don't really stack up. I don't see how it would reduce dwell times (if we're talking about a busy service with high turnover surely having to go up and downstairs with a longer distance to the doors as well as fight through crowds will just make it worse?), the road space allocation would not change in the slightest, they might take up a few metres less length but this would be marginal. I assume this is your argument regarding congestion and pollution as well. Except, if they offer a high capacity service which will take existing vehicles off the roads, even if there is no net reduction in the number of vehicles the effect will be minimal. And of course the segregation on much of the route will make this all the less significant.

[rwilkes]

If Leeds gets trolleybuses as a one off they will cost twice the going rate. Leeds should go for BRT. When enough cities have BRT trolleys could be done at half the price as a rolling programme.
But Metro want a status symbol not a transport system!