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Post by martinsfp on Mar 7, 2024 20:20:25 GMT 1
Okay, trams aren’t buses so this might not be posted in the right place. But they’ll certainly compete with and complement bus travel, so it’s relevant here. Unclear what route these trams would take. —- Plans for a tram system running between Leeds and Bradford have been set out today, as the West Yorkshire Mayor Tracy Brabin aims to revolutionise the region's transport network. The proposals were published today ahead of the final Combined Authority meeting, ahead of May's Mayoral election, of West Yorkshire's leaders next week (March 14), which will see them agree to a major step forward for the so-called mass transit scheme. It is hoped that spades will be in the ground in 2028 when construction of the early stage of the project will begin. Phase one would include two lines serving Leeds and Bradford, The Leeds Line and the Bradford Line. The Leeds Line would take people between St James’ Hospital, through Leeds city centre and on to Elland Road and the White Rose Shopping Centre. The Bradford Line would run from Leeds city centre to Bradford city centre – also linking Bradford Forster Square station with the new Bradford rail station. This line supports Bradford's plans to regenerate the city’s southern gateway, which includes the new Bradford rail station. The Combined Authority would also work with Kirklees Council to look into how to include a Dewsbury Line in future. www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/all-news-and-blogs/mayor-sets-out-plan-for-west-yorkshire-tram-system-to-better-connect-region/ |
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Mar 7, 2024 21:57:08 GMT 1
Okay, trams aren’t buses so this might not be posted in the right place. But they’ll certainly compete with and complement bus travel, so it’s relevant here. Unclear what route these trams would take. —- Plans for a tram system running between Leeds and Bradford have been set out today, as the West Yorkshire Mayor Tracy Brabin aims to revolutionise the region's transport network. The proposals were published today ahead of the final Combined Authority meeting, ahead of May's Mayoral election, of West Yorkshire's leaders next week (March 14), which will see them agree to a major step forward for the so-called mass transit scheme. It is hoped that spades will be in the ground in 2028 when construction of the early stage of the project will begin. Phase one would include two lines serving Leeds and Bradford, The Leeds Line and the Bradford Line. The Leeds Line would take people between St James’ Hospital, through Leeds city centre and on to Elland Road and the White Rose Shopping Centre. The Bradford Line would run from Leeds city centre to Bradford city centre – also linking Bradford Forster Square station with the new Bradford rail station. This line supports Bradford's plans to regenerate the city’s southern gateway, which includes the new Bradford rail station. The Combined Authority would also work with Kirklees Council to look into how to include a Dewsbury Line in future. www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/all-news-and-blogs/mayor-sets-out-plan-for-west-yorkshire-tram-system-to-better-connect-region/To be fair, it's not really your fault about it being in this thread, I think the moderators should make an extra thread where it says buses and trains for trams. Anyways it's good news to see the tram plan shaping ahead. I reckon locations for tram stops between Bradford and Leeds will be at Armley Town Street, Bramley and either Stanningley or Pudsey centres for the very least. |
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Mar 7, 2024 22:04:53 GMT 1
Okay, trams aren’t buses so this might not be posted in the right place. But they’ll certainly compete with and complement bus travel, so it’s relevant here. Unclear what route these trams would take. —- Plans for a tram system running between Leeds and Bradford have been set out today, as the West Yorkshire Mayor Tracy Brabin aims to revolutionise the region's transport network. The proposals were published today ahead of the final Combined Authority meeting, ahead of May's Mayoral election, of West Yorkshire's leaders next week (March 14), which will see them agree to a major step forward for the so-called mass transit scheme. It is hoped that spades will be in the ground in 2028 when construction of the early stage of the project will begin. Phase one would include two lines serving Leeds and Bradford, The Leeds Line and the Bradford Line. The Leeds Line would take people between St James’ Hospital, through Leeds city centre and on to Elland Road and the White Rose Shopping Centre. The Bradford Line would run from Leeds city centre to Bradford city centre – also linking Bradford Forster Square station with the new Bradford rail station. This line supports Bradford's plans to regenerate the city’s southern gateway, which includes the new Bradford rail station. The Combined Authority would also work with Kirklees Council to look into how to include a Dewsbury Line in future. www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/all-news-and-blogs/mayor-sets-out-plan-for-west-yorkshire-tram-system-to-better-connect-region/To be fair, it's not really your fault about it being in this thread, I think the moderators should make an extra thread where it says buses and trains for trams.Anyways it's good news to see the tram plan shaping ahead. I reckon locations for tram stops between Bradford and Leeds will be at Armley Town Street, Bramley and either Stanningley or Pudsey centres for the very least. Where are the trams in the area covered by this forum? I think this one thread will do as they'll never be trams. |
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Post by jdodger08 on Mar 8, 2024 1:07:43 GMT 1
I'll believe it when I see it!
But, facts are facts. Leeds is the biggest city within Europe without a rapid transit system, and I believe this more interurban approach of this proposed system is more beneficial than the previous "super tram" proposals.
The White Rose Center line has potential to be extended further, for example into Morley, Batley or even further to Dewsbury.
I think an every 10 minute tram would be more appealing than an every 10 minute bus to the wider public.
Hopefully this initial system can be built and further expanded on like the metro link in Manchester.
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Post by martinsfp on Mar 8, 2024 8:24:23 GMT 1
Yes, I feel this proposal has more legs than previous Leeds tram plans like the Headingley line. There’s arguably greater socioeconomic benefit here, particularly in making Bradford more conveniently accessible.
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Mar 8, 2024 10:09:19 GMT 1
If we think about it either way it could result in something great
If we don't get the trams it will presumably turn into something for the buses like with the guideways
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Post by deerfold on Mar 8, 2024 12:02:42 GMT 1
If we think about it either way it could result in something great If we don't get the trams it will presumably turn into something for the buses like with the guideways I hope it happens. However... Last time Leeds didn't get trams it then didn't get trolleybuses then the bus frequencies on the first suggested route were massively cut despite First's promises. |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 8, 2024 12:38:08 GMT 1
Until there is a photo shoot with Tracy Brabin and council leaders in a hard hat with a shovel signifying the start of construction, I can’t get excited by these proposals
We’ve been here many times, 2 or 3 versions of the Leeds Supertram, and then the Leeds trolley bus scheme, and I’ve seen numerous plans showing exact routes trams would take. These plans aren’t even as advanced as that, it’s just a vague idea at the moment.
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Mar 8, 2024 13:35:41 GMT 1
Meanwhile, rural bus services are slow, infrequent and unreliable.
What an absolute waste of money. Imagine the disruption and traffic chaos whilst it is being built. Shall we take a poll on how much over budget it will be?
There are 2 train lines already between Leeds and Bradford. There is a frequent bus service. How much travel is there between the two cities, outside of peak hours, in a digital, shop online, work remotely world?
Bradford city centre is empty and dead already. Old buildings are vacant. Brand new buildings are vacant. The Westfield Centre is an absolute white elephant. M&S are the latest store to leave. How is this going to help people staying in Bradford for retail or leisure?
Why is there an obsession with out of town shopping centres? What's so important about the White Rose Centre? It's just full of the same chain shops as everywhere else. SJUH is in one of the worst areas of Leeds. Why would there be a demand from that area to go to the WRC? There are plenty of buses that serve SJUH for patients. SJUH isn't far out of the city centre. Building a multi-storey car-park at SJUH would serve staff and patients better.
Why would there be a big demand from Morley, Dewsbury and Batley? Those areas are served by buses and trains and park and ride into Leeds.
If they have money to spend, it should be on a train link to the airport. It has the worst road links, the worst bus service and the most expensive parking. It's almost double to park at Leeds than East Midlands for example.
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Post by leeds rider on Mar 8, 2024 14:17:09 GMT 1
There are plenty of buses that serve SJUH for patients. SJUH isn't far out of the city centre. Building a multi-storey car-park at SJUH would serve staff and patients better. There's already a multi-storey car park at Jimmy's for patients and visitors, and lots of staff parking. |
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Post by martinsfp on Mar 8, 2024 16:33:06 GMT 1
I never cease to be amazed by the amount of cynicism on here about virtually any ambitious use of public money.
I live in Manchester and there’s a reason the Metrolink network has continued to expand over the years - it works! People who would never take the bus take trams, people get to popular destinations faster and more reliably, they’re more easily accessible and more frequent than trains….
Stockport is a relatively wealthy part of Greater Manchester that has something like up to 30 buses an hour into Manchester and lots of trains that only take about 10 minutes to Manchester, but there’s very strong demand to extend the East Didsbury Metrolink line into Stockport. People there have seen the benefits!
West Yorkshire should want trams!
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Mar 8, 2024 17:02:07 GMT 1
I never cease to be amazed by the amount of cynicism on here about virtually any ambitious use of public money. I live in Manchester and there’s a reason the Metrolink network has continued to expand over the years - it works! People who would never take the bus take trams, people get to popular destinations faster and more reliably, they’re more easily accessible and more frequent than trains…. Stockport is a relatively wealthy part of Greater Manchester that has something like up to 30 buses an hour into Manchester and lots of trains that only take about 10 minutes to Manchester, but there’s very strong demand to extend the East Didsbury Metrolink line into Stockport. People there have seen the benefits! West Yorkshire should want trams! I think almost all of us want trams. It seems people are just trying not to get their hopes up due to the amount of failed attempts to get a tram built |
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Post by mk2mcw on Mar 8, 2024 17:31:32 GMT 1
Until there is a photo shoot with Tracy Brabin and council leaders in a hard hat with a shovel signifying the start of construction, I can’t get excited by these proposals We’ve been here many times, 2 or 3 versions of the Leeds Supertram, and then the Leeds trolley bus scheme, and I’ve seen numerous plans showing exact routes trams would take. These plans aren’t even as advanced as that, it’s just a vague idea at the moment. Erm….we’ve had that before when the advance works on Hunslet lane began in 2004. Yorkshire evening post did a photoshoot of councillors digging a spade in the road saying “ITS A GO” |
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Post by chas on Mar 8, 2024 17:39:19 GMT 1
Meanwhile, rural bus services are slow, infrequent and unreliable. What an absolute waste of money. Imagine the disruption and traffic chaos whilst it is being built. Shall we take a poll on how much over budget it will be? If they have money to spend, it should be on a train link to the airport. It has the worst road links, the worst bus service and the most expensive parking. It's almost double to park at Leeds than East Midlands for example. I lived in Fife whilst the Edinburgh tramline was being built. The horrendous disruption was mainly due to the need to re-route the below-ground services, power, water, sewers etc. Life on Princes Street and others was non-existent for ages. Now when a tram comes along, all the traffic lights turn to red until it has passed. But it does serve the airport, which is very useful but then Edinburgh is relatively level. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2024 18:14:48 GMT 1
Part of me thinks its a publicity campaign for the upcoming election. I might be a cynic, but with the elections coming up in a few months time.
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Mar 8, 2024 20:04:00 GMT 1
I think for viability reasons which I'll explain later, the Elland Road tram should extend up to Morley via the fields behind White Rose to Wide Lane by Magpie Lane (tram stops here) then cut through Magpie Lane using the spare land (2 more stops here) then along the road past Aldi (another stop) where more spare land can be used to terminate just outside of the town centre close to the roundabout. You probably wouldn't have the room to extend right into the town centre but it's close enough and serves quite a wide area, a good part of which is either poorly served by bus, a longish walk to the train station or both. The only issue however is how to access Wide Lane/Magpie Lane junction from the fields, it may mean some homes have to go if the estate road isn't big enough or if there isn't enough room to run up the short section of Wide Lane from the field.
Talking of routes, exactly what route will the tram take on Elland Road? Elland Road is squeezed enough thanks to the cycle lane so I can't see any room for a tram without major demolition such as businesses on the Ring Road side, houses further up etc. Even if it was routed round the back of the stadium then via Lowfields Road and Geldard Road to town, it still doesn't answer what happens at the begining of Elland Road. You've also got to consider if travelling that way to White Rose is viable as it most likely will take longer than the bus would, and let's not forget the train which will work out significantly quicker even with a 800 meter walk.
Personally, I think having it run from White Rose alone won't attract enough traffic to make it viable, and there will be competition of sorts from the White Rose train station. As a further note, there is also the issue of what happens to Dewsbury Road links with White Rose, if passenger numbers from Leeds centre turn to the tram, will this make the 3 and 3A less viable leading to withdrawal? We have seen the 3 and 3A cut in frequency last year before that was restored, yes there are the Arriva services but could these be cut too if there isn't enough through passengers?
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Post by martinsfp on Mar 8, 2024 20:50:10 GMT 1
Personally, I think having it run from White Rose alone won't attract enough traffic to make it viable, and there will be competition of sorts from the White Rose train station. As a further note, there is also the issue of what happens to Dewsbury Road links with White Rose, if passenger numbers from Leeds centre turn to the tram, will this make the 3 and 3A less viable leading to withdrawal? We have seen the 3 and 3A cut in frequency last year before that was restored, yes there are the Arriva services but could these be cut too if there isn't enough through passengers? Good point re Morley. The White Rose<>St James’s line is a lot less compelling than the Bradford one based on what they’ve said so far. On the bus route, side, this would presumably be in a future where buses were franchised and thus centrally planned, meaning the overall transport needs of the area could be considered without profitability being a primary concern. |
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Mar 8, 2024 21:16:53 GMT 1
It would be great if the tram used the currently disused Holbeck Viaduct between the railway station and Elland Road Park and Ride site. This would replace the PR1, and allow for much faster journeys that don't get stuck in the traffic that the current bus route does.
However I'm not sure how I'd route it on the Leeds City Centre end for it to end up in town, rather than a platform on the current station.
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Mar 8, 2024 21:25:32 GMT 1
To be fair, it's not really your fault about it being in this thread, I think the moderators should make an extra thread where it says buses and trains for trams.Anyways it's good news to see the tram plan shaping ahead. I reckon locations for tram stops between Bradford and Leeds will be at Armley Town Street, Bramley and either Stanningley or Pudsey centres for the very least. Where are the trams in the area covered by this forum? I think this one thread will do as they'll never be trams. Notice how the thread says West, South and North Yorkshire. Stagecoach supertram is in South Yorkshire so I reckon it can make do with a thread for it. |
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Mar 8, 2024 21:30:15 GMT 1
Where are the trams in the area covered by this forum? I think this one thread will do as they'll never be trams. Notice how the thread says West, South and North Yorkshire. Stagecoach supertram is in South Yorkshire so I reckon it can make do with a thread for it. Funny that, I'm reading West, North and EAST Yorkshire, which one of us needs Specsavers lol |
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Mar 9, 2024 1:15:43 GMT 1
Notice how the thread says West, South and North Yorkshire. Stagecoach supertram is in South Yorkshire so I reckon it can make do with a thread for it. Funny that, I'm reading West, North and EAST Yorkshire, which one of us needs Specsavers lol Probably me, I have realised it doesn't say South Yorkshire but to be fair Sheffield used to be part of West Yorkshire so it would be nice to have a thread for trams. |
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Post by angrycommuter on Mar 9, 2024 7:28:31 GMT 1
I'm unsure as to why Elland Road has been chosen over Dewsbury Road.
Dewsbury Road is wider in most parts, serves a larger population and is more direct. Unless the idea is primarily to serve the park and ride, I can't understand the decision. There will also be crush loading and antisocial behaviour on match days from Elland Road to Leeds.
White Rose will be an intermediate end point I suspect, with likely branch extensions to Morley and Dewsbury.
However it's all so far away and leeds has been talking about trams for decades so I'll believe it when I see it!
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pricel
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Post by pricel on Apr 7, 2024 19:13:27 GMT 1
I'm unsure as to why Elland Road has been chosen over Dewsbury Road. Dewsbury Road is wider in most parts, serves a larger population and is more direct. Unless the idea is primarily to serve the park and ride, I can't understand the decision. There will also be crush loading and antisocial behaviour on match days from Elland Road to Leeds. White Rose will be an intermediate end point I suspect, with likely branch extensions to Morley and Dewsbury. However it's all so far away and leeds has been talking about trams for decades so I'll believe it when I see it! Sorry for the late reply but I have a feeling the selected choice for Elland Road over Dewsbury Road was because it is home to the Leeds United Stadium, which can be a nightmare to drive or even get buses during match days. Having a tram stop will help tackle congestion, although I do believe there should be a Dewsbury Road Stop somewhere as well. |
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Post by shelf81 on Apr 8, 2024 17:51:52 GMT 1
Another issue with Dewsbury Road is the section between the Fire Station & Hunslet Hall Road would create a bottleneck, with the road only being one lane in each direction with the odd parking spot so if you wanted priority for trams you would either need a major restructure of the road system or to demolish some buildings (both would risk the project becoming financially unsustainable) compared to routing via Elland Road what has the options of either dual carriage roads, more space around them available or even a fully intact disused viaduct all as options.
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Apr 8, 2024 18:18:22 GMT 1
What I can't understand about the Elland Road routing is that it isn't exactly a very busy corridor. Outside of the Park and Ride site, people visiting the LUFC shop, and people at the White Rose Centre: who exactly is using it?
If trams were routed down Dewsbury Road to the White Rose Centre, then continued into the middle of Morley for example, it would make sense. A very densely populated corridor with a large out-of-town shopping complex at the bottom of it, and a reasonably large town: Morley.
Even then though, what would it be achieving that buses don't already achieve? Faster journey times? Create an express route: Leeds - Dewsbury Road - White Rose Centre - Morley.
I really am all for a mass transit scheme in West Yorkshire, but the more I analyse it, the more I'm struggling to imagine where trams would work. The only place I could if think would be Leeds - Airport, but I can't work out the routing of it. Running it along the A65 would be great, but when you get to the bottleneck at Kirsktall and then Horsforth Roundabout: where do the trams go?
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