Concerns about the 501/X1

[mattb7tl]

Due to the length and formatting of the post, please don't quote, unless it is a small chunk, to keep the thread nice and tidy.

I have expressed my concerns over in the service changes thread. It seems the more you look into the timetables the more worrying and unsustainable the improvements appear. I have compiled a list of the most popular routes, for Huddersfield, with their last possible bus from Halifax, last local bus, as well as the amount of journeys the new routes can’t connect with due to poor running times of the local services.

184:
Last Bus (From Halifax): 501 at 22:10, arrival at 22:48
Last Bus (to Marsden): 185 at 23:00
Journeys W/O Connection: 2

301/302:
Last Bus (Halifax): X1 at 21:40, arrival at 22:11
Last Journey (Golcar): 301 at 22:15
Journeys W/O Connection: 3/4 (tight connection)

306:
Last Bus (from Halifax): X1 at 21:40, arrival at 22:11.
Last Bus (to Taylor Hill): 306 at 22:26
Journeys W/O Connection: 3

310:
Last Bus (From Halifax): X1 at 21:40, arrival at 22:11
Last Bus (to Hepworth): 310 at 22:35
Journeys W/O Connection: 3

314:
Last Bus (From Halifax): 501 at 22:10, arrival at 22:48
Last Bus (to Holme): 314 at 23:05
Journeys W/O Connection: 2

324:
Last Bus (From Halifax): X1 at 20:10, arrival at 20:44
Last Bus (to Meltham): 324 at 21:03
Journeys W/O Connection: 7

328 (Bradley):
Last Bus (From Halifax): 501 at 21:10, arrival at 21:48
Last Bus (to Bradley): 328 at 22:10
Journeys W/O Connection: 4

328 (Crosland Moor):
Last Bus (From Halifax): 501 at 22:10, arrival at 22:48
Last Bus (to Crosland Moor): 328 at 23:00
Journeys W/O Connection: 2

363:
Last Bus (From Halifax): X1 at 21:40 / 501 at 22:10, arrival at 22:11 or 22:48
Last Bus (to Bradford/Brighouse): 363 at 22:18, 363 at 23:00
Journeys W/O Connection: 3/2

370:
Last Bus (From Halifax): 501 at 22:10, arrival at 22:48
Last Bus (to Rawthrope): 370 at 22:43
Journeys W/O Connection: 2

372:
Last Bus (From Halifax): X1 at 20:40, arrival at 21:14
Last Bus (to Almondbury): 372 at 21:36
Journeys W/O Connection: 5

In total, there’s *drum roll* 37 journeys, where you *physically* cannot connect with and be supported by your local bus route, and that’s just in the evening!

I fear that the routes that truly matter, the local routes, are incapable of supporting these improvements during the morning and evening, it is even worse in Halifax, at least by first glance. The money has been thrown into two bus routes while the rest of the network simply isn’t up to scratch. I fail to see how a large chunk of the morning and night journeys will survive. I don't think it is realistic to expect the X1, to be self sustaining, or expect people to catch a bus, to then get a taxi.

I feel like the funding we are receiving at the moment is a very rare windfall we likely won't see for a very long time. I hope for it to be used appropriately to make changes which can actually be sustainable, quite fond of Arriva's (minus the cuts). I hope somebody could address my concerns since there's a lot in here with great knowledge, and even in the industry themselves.

[Father Dougal McGuire]

It's more for people who live and work between Halifax and Huddersfield than a feeder service for random Huddersfield routes.

[pricel]

Feb 15, 2024 22:20:20 GMT 1 Father Dougal McGuire said:

It's more for people who live and work between Halifax and Huddersfield than a feeder service for random Huddersfield routes.

I would to partially agree with Matt and partially have to agree with Josh here, from observation, most passengers on 501/3 live on the route and use it for the commute to work but the services could become far more successful if more other busy locals ran as early and with better connection times. I don't really think the issue is Huddersfield routes as Huddersfield is a bigger town with more jobs, it think it's more about Halifax that would need to receive better times. 
If there were other early routes for the Mixendens, Illingworths and Sowerby Bridge services it would be useful.

[westyorkshirebus]

Feb 15, 2024 22:20:20 GMT 1 Father Dougal McGuire said:

It's more for people who live and work between Halifax and Huddersfield than a feeder service for random Huddersfield routes.

I agree. The poster seems to be under the impression that the 501/X1 is only to get people to the next town to be able to catch more buses

I know enthusiasts like to come up with weird and wonderful multi bus journeys that take hours, but most people only use one bus

[Deleted]

I Think Matt raises an important fact & something i've mentioned before with both the trains in Huddersfield & Arriva services in North Kirklees.

The X1/501 times actually are similar to the trains,so that's a plus with both the slow & fast TPEs from Manchester coming in between :40 & :55, TPE Fast from Leeds between :50 - :05 & The Northern from Bradford at around :15 but again the local network lets it down - even worse when you remember TPE sell through tickets on the Holmfirth/Meltham routes. (one thing over the OP is the Meltham route on a Saturday is 21:23, plus there's the TP 321 at 22:00 & 23:00). The 268 almost skilfully manages to have rubbish connections in Dewsbury,Heckmondwike & Cleckheaton with other services as well.

Other forums have long had discussions over the 'Hub & Spoke' model of services (The North East one stands out over the GNE Sunderland network) but it does ask the question what's the point when the 'spokes' don't connect. Whilst I agree the majority of X1 passengers will live enroute & the Halifax route has always been independent from others, for the 501 as it's now the main HRI route it means for most bus passengers it will be their connecting route to the Hospital as it comes with severing a through route what whilst that wins on reliability does mean some people will lose out, even more so when the dayticket rises to £5 (meaning a return journey for example from Waterloo will be £1 more) plus through 'orbital' buses to HRI from the villages being axed.

In a perfect system we would do similar to Switzerland where we would just have both bus & rail set off at the same times each hour, but of course the funding is not there for the extra vehicles this would require due to less interworking/longer layovers required to make it work but sadly until then these sorts of issues will always happen.

One other missed opportunity is the morning timetable, as I believe they have timed the X1 & 501s the wrong way around. As I know via my work that Lowfields have night shifts ending from 4:30 until around 8am they could of had the 501s going through Elland at 4:45 & 5:45 before current 6:15 (would also of removed the 5:10 - 5:50 gap from Halifax & have it half hourly) with the X1s moving 15 Mins into the 501 spots. Would of meant that it would pass the HRI close to the hour/half hour as well timing it better with Hospital shift times.

[mattb7tl]

Feb 15, 2024 23:57:39 GMT 1 westyorkshirebus said:

Feb 15, 2024 22:20:20 GMT 1 Father Dougal McGuire said:

It's more for people who live and work between Halifax and Huddersfield than a feeder service for random Huddersfield routes.

I agree. The poster seems to be under the impression that the 501/X1 is only to get people to the next town to be able to catch more buses

I know enthusiasts like to come up with weird and wonderful multi bus journeys that take hours, but most people only use one bus

Do you think it would actually be self sustainable? 
Edgerton Road and Halifax Road is a surrounded by low density, mansions and fancy terraces. Usage is naturally going to be low.
In Elland it misses out a substantial amount of stops which massively helped the 503, as well as West Vale, the X1 heads towards the lower density part of the Elland, which again doesn't help. There's then the issue of the amount of stops from Halifax, it skips three major ones on the way back, and it doesn't look like a fun walk around that car centric roundabout! 
Huddersfield Road is, denser, and of course features the CRH, but is that enough for an insanely long running timetable as well as a very frequent service, even when the most deprived, dense, communities have routes ending hours earlier with sometimes even a lower frequency?

[Deleted]

Feb 16, 2024 0:47:33 GMT 1 mattb7tl said:

Feb 15, 2024 23:57:39 GMT 1 westyorkshirebus said:

I agree. The poster seems to be under the impression that the 501/X1 is only to get people to the next town to be able to catch more buses

I know enthusiasts like to come up with weird and wonderful multi bus journeys that take hours, but most people only use one bus

Do you think it would actually be self sustainable? 
Edgerton Road and Halifax Road is a surrounded by low density, mansions and fancy terraces. Usage is naturally going to be low.
In Elland it misses out a substantial amount of stops which massively helped the 503, as well as West Vale, the X1 heads towards the lower density part of the Elland, which again doesn't help. There's then the issue of the amount of stops from Halifax, it skips three major ones on the way back, and it doesn't look like a fun walk around that car centric roundabout! 
Huddersfield Road is, denser, and of course features the CRH, but is that enough for an insanely long running timetable as well as a very frequent service, even when the most deprived, dense, communities have routes ending hours earlier with sometimes even a lower frequency?

One thing X1 does have in it's favour once the works to the bypass are done (if they are still happening?) allowing it to use Huddersfield Rd Slip Road in both directions, it should gain passengers from the 'Ainley Bottom' industrial estate & will be a fairly short walk from a fair bit of the South Lane housing estate.

[Father Dougal McGuire]

I personally think the X1 should have no problem, most new routes are always a bit patchy but luckily this is more of a direct
route of the well established 503.

From driving the 503 many many times (allbeit the last time was on its old 8 minute frequency in the Zest era), the entirety of passengers are people traveling between Halifax - Eland - Huddersfield. You would queue for absolutely ages down Long Wall into West Vale with a full bus for the sake of about 5 people wanting on/off there. Same going towards Huddersfield, never picked more than a handful of passengers up from there - going via West Vale was just an inconvenience for the majority of the passengers.

The Victoria & Jepson Lane areas of Elland aren't really suffering either with a 15 minute service. OK journeys towards Huddersfield will be 5 minutes longer but if they're really that bothered it's a steady 5 downhill walk to the Town Hall.

I can guarantee that if it was still numbered 503 and advertised as a revised route, then this conversation wouldn't be happening along with several other similar posts about it.

[johndc1984]

It’s similar to the improvements last year to the 72 Bradford-Leeds service when they introduced the 4am services, these have little or no connection with any other services in the Bradford area but cater for the main Bradford-Leeds corridor like the new X1/501 services.

[joseph]

The thing is though why are some areas getting a brilliant level of service from 4am to midnight where as other more deserving areas aren't? Central Beeston as well as the Dewsbury Road side, Middleton, Belle Isle etc could do with buses as early as 4am given the type of workforce that live in those areas and how spread all over they work, although I have to admit it's significantly safer to get a taxi late at night so maybe the late journeys aren't that needed. For example, I knew someone who finished their shift at a persons house in the Yeadon area at 10pm, travelled back to Beeston, then had to be back at that same house for their next shift at 7am once or twice a month, they used a taxi both ways but having an early bus one way would have helped a lot financially. You get a lot of cleaners working in town before people have even got out of bed, I've often walked through town at 6am to see them hard at it at cleaning outside the many restaurants in town, I presume they start at 5am. WYCA could do with finding out how people on early starts get to work and where they live, then funding early buses to match the demand as there is a hell of a lot of poorly paid workers out there taking taxi's due to no bus.

[kendall17]

What they should do is fund a 'taxi share' website, where people from similar areas heading to similar areas can share their taxis & ultimately the cost with others.

A bus service for the odd person here & there wont be sustainable.

The ridiculousness of your colleague's case suggests there is more the employer can do.