Chopping long routes into two (or more)

[yorkslad]

Following on from the suggestion by First that they cut the northbound 51/52 at Vicar Lane and replace it with a 38/39 combination for the rest of the route, what other routes would be candidates for similar treatment? Or do we think they should be left alone?

I'd think about doing something with the 4/4G, 16/16A and 19/19A if they were having similar punctuality issues, but one wrinkle is that it's become harder to turn buses around in parts of Leeds now that New Station Street is about to be closed and the area in front of The Queens has been closed... those six routes would all have to turn on Headrow (eastbound) or Infirmary Street (westbound) to provide same- or next-stop passenger changing and loop around East Parade and Park Row.

Over the years, various routes have been slightly extended in ways that have added to journey times. The 50/50A run to Horsforth Town Street, the 2 (now 3/3A) extended to the White Rose Centre when it opened, and the 12 does so now. Back in the day, the 19A used to be the 74 (now the 75) - is there any mileage in restoring that link? That way you get the benefit of a through service but you're linking a shorter leg onto a longer one (a bit like the 1 and 42 do) instead of two long legs...

[Father Dougal McGuire]

First Todmorden services between Halifax - Burnley or Rochdale via Hebden Bridge and Todmorden.
592 between Halifax and Todmorden only then re instate the 589 Rochdale - Burnley via Todmorden. It was the most reliable service ever and was always ontime. Yet now with all services running through from Halifax any delays along the route just get later and later. Also no good connections anymore because of this as nothing connects at Todmorden. This could be solved if the service was split and the 589 reinstated.

We ran it this way when the long term Mytholmroyd Flood Alleviation Scheme was under way. The Rochdale - Todmorden - Burnley section was the most reliable it had ever been. But that's when there was a schedules officer based locally rather than in a central office elsewhere.

[kendall17]

A decent interchange and there's no reason why all cross city routes could be curtailed in the city centre. The bus station is not a decent interchange point.

I'm suprised the 2/3/12/13 still interwork as they do. Surely if there's an issue on the 12, it's better to keep that vehicle on the 12, rather than sending all 40 odd others to get hit by the same issue?

[nic]

Jan 17, 2023 23:24:22 GMT 1 kendall17 said:

A decent interchange and there's no reason why all cross city routes could be curtailed in the city centre. The bus station is not a decent interchange point.

I'm under the illusion Briggate/Vicar Lane area would be a good interchange? Like back in the 90's when briggate had buses running up it. Somewhere around that proximity.

[mattb7tl]

I’d nominate the 372/328.
Although with the old timing points, they’d very rarely ever be late, even at rush hour. 
If first doesn’t revert back to the old timetables and we’re stuck with the current timetable. They’d really benefit from being split apart 
The 202/203 would also be better split apart
Mirfield and Dewsbury would gain a much more reliable bus service to and from Huddersfield, and for people travelling to Leeds… The 229 is the fastest option anyways, it seems like a win/win. 

[Deleted]

Jan 17, 2023 23:24:22 GMT 1 kendall17 said:

A decent interchange and there's no reason why all cross city routes could be curtailed in the city centre. The bus station is not a decent interchange point.

I'm suprised the 2/3/12/13 still interwork as they do. Surely if there's an issue on the 12, it's better to keep that vehicle on the 12, rather than sending all 40 odd others to get hit by the same issue?

I Believe as part of the plans for the new HS2 Station, a new bus interchange was planned approx. where New Lane is on the Victoria Rd side of the roundabout, what would of taken terminating buses off the likes of Park Row & Boar Lane, it's highly possible more services could of been changed to terminate there as well.

Now that's all been scrapped, I wonder if the NCP car park at Leeds Market might be a good spot, if you knocked it down & turned it into a few more rows of bus shelters in an interchange style, maybe add a sheltered walkway to the current bus & coach station to make it seem all in one plus with the car park gone there's little reason not to make New York St/York St Buses & Deliveries only, removing extra traffic from that area. NCP was willing to sell their car park in Bradford to the council to knock down so it could be worth Leeds making an offer.

[stantheman]

607 (7) was Thornbury - Bradford - Thornton for many years until the late 70s. Then it went Bradford - Thornton only.

It changed back to a cross-city route in the 2000s but back to Bradford - Thornton only again now.

[twansport]

Problem with targeting the 4 and 16 routes for splitting is Jimmys (St James Hospital), which attracts a quantity of cross city centre traffic.

[yorkslad]

Jan 18, 2023 22:39:47 GMT 1 twansport said:

Problem with targeting the 4 and 16 routes for splitting is Jimmys (St James Hospital), which attracts a quantity of cross city centre traffic.

I'd argue that the 4 doesn't go that close (not as close as the 16s, 42, 49 and 50/A, anyway). But they both start in Pudsey, run through Bramley and Armley - so most people would still have to come in to Leeds from, say, Alwoodley, Beeston or Headingley and change.

[westyorkshirebus]

I quite like how it works in Nottingham where nothing runs cross city, everything terminates in the city with a few routes running as a loop around joining it all up

How it works in practice I don’t know, although I did read an article once saying Nottingham City Transport bosses had to hold their nerve for a very long time after they introduced it, as there were angry letters and petitions every week for months.

In Leeds for example you could have all Bramley/Pudsey routes coming in on Westgate, terminating on Park Row and then out via Wellington Street. Seacroft services in on Eastgate, Vicar Lane, out via New York Street. There is no way a private company such as First would get away with it now (public pressure is much louder with social media and the mayor would obviously side with the public as well), but if it was her and Metro’s idea they’d be able push it through

It’d make the coloured corridors work better as well, stopping the situation where all the cross city routes are two corridors each

[Bradford Traveller]

Jan 18, 2023 12:47:52 GMT 1 stantheman said:

607 (7) was Thornbury - Bradford - Thornton for many years until the late 70s. Then it went Bradford - Thornton only.

It changed back to a cross-city route in the 2000s but back to Bradford - Thornton only again now.

Originally was City – Thornton then in the 1960s was linked to 89 City – Thornbury, with many other cross-city routes starting around that time. In the late 1970s, many flows were rationalised, with the 72 becoming the main local service and the Thornbury portion cut.
Planners of the Overground high-frequency network identified the Laisterdyke route as being suitable for enhancement, and the daytime 607s were diverted to run via Laisterdyke. Not long afterwards, increased congestion resulted in a very unreliable service and a split, with the 608 number used.
Other changes to improve reliability included shortening the Wyke routes to link to the Fagley service, turning the daytime Eldwick route into a Bradford – Bingley service and extending the daytime Wilsden service to Eldwick.

[Username]

Jan 17, 2023 23:05:12 GMT 1 Father Dougal McGuire said:

First Todmorden services between Halifax - Burnley or Rochdale via Hebden Bridge and Todmorden.
592 between Halifax and Todmorden only then re instate the 589 Rochdale - Burnley via Todmorden. It was the most reliable service ever and was always ontime. Yet now with all services running through from Halifax any delays along the route just get later and later. Also no good connections anymore because of this as nothing connects at Todmorden. This could be solved if the service was split and the 589 reinstated.

We ran it this way when the long term Mytholmroyd Flood Alleviation Scheme was under way. The Rochdale - Todmorden - Burnley section was the most reliable it had ever been. But that's when there was a schedules officer based locally rather than in a central office elsewhere.

I do think the 589 needs to be added back but I think at least one bus per hour from Halifax should go Rochdale and Burnley.

[Father Dougal McGuire]

Jan 19, 2023 19:40:08 GMT 1 Username said:

Jan 17, 2023 23:05:12 GMT 1 Father Dougal McGuire said:

First Todmorden services between Halifax - Burnley or Rochdale via Hebden Bridge and Todmorden.
592 between Halifax and Todmorden only then re instate the 589 Rochdale - Burnley via Todmorden. It was the most reliable service ever and was always ontime. Yet now with all services running through from Halifax any delays along the route just get later and later. Also no good connections anymore because of this as nothing connects at Todmorden. This could be solved if the service was split and the 589 reinstated.

We ran it this way when the long term Mytholmroyd Flood Alleviation Scheme was under way. The Rochdale - Todmorden - Burnley section was the most reliable it had ever been. But that's when there was a schedules officer based locally rather than in a central office elsewhere.

I do think the 589 needs to be added back but I think at least one bus per hour from Halifax should go Rochdale and Burnley.

There's no point though apart from Evenings and Sunday's it's a trunk route so delays in the valley severely disrupt the pattern. I once took on the 1510 589 from Todmorden to Rochdale an hour late. I went to Rochdale and went back to Burnley and only left there 5 minutes late. then back ontime at Tod... can't do that now it gets adjusted and trips drop. Have the Valley stand alone every 10 or 15 minutes and passengers to or from Rochdale or Burnley have a wait of no longer than 10 minutes and those to and from the Valley have no longer wait of 10 or 5 minutes. A journey from either Burnley or Rochdale used to take 1hr 20min. Now it can take nearly 2 hours. Plus no connect tickets. People who live in Cornholme but work in Manchester have to buy 2 weekly's now instead of just 1. There's a guy who lives in Burnley who has to buy 3, a Manchester one for the 409, West Yorkshire for the 590/592 and a Lancashire one. Before he'd just buy a Manchester weekly in Burnley on the 589 which was £17 ontop of whatever the Lancashire one was priced at at the time.

[martinsfp]

Jan 18, 2023 12:47:52 GMT 1 stantheman said:

607 (7) was Thornbury - Bradford - Thornton for many years until the late 70s. Then it went Bradford - Thornton only.

It changed back to a cross-city route in the 2000s but back to Bradford - Thornton only again now.

And there was a time in the late 80s or very early 90s when the 607 briefly extended to West Bowling. Didn’t last long though.

[Bradford Traveller]

Jan 19, 2023 22:01:58 GMT 1 martinsfp said:

Jan 18, 2023 12:47:52 GMT 1 stantheman said:

607 (7) was Thornbury - Bradford - Thornton for many years until the late 70s. Then it went Bradford - Thornton only.

It changed back to a cross-city route in the 2000s but back to Bradford - Thornton only again now.

And there was a time in the late 80s or very early 90s when the 607 briefly extended to West Bowling. Didn’t last long though.

The 616 ran through to West Bowling at the time, but cutbacks meant on an evening the 607s were hourly, didn't run as a standalone service but interworked on the same board as 616 of an evening, so timetabling meant it ran on the West Bowling route only in one direction of an evening.

[SCH117X]

Jan 18, 2023 23:47:41 GMT 1 westyorkshirebus said:

I quite like how it works in Nottingham where nothing runs cross city, everything terminates in the city with a few routes running as a loop around joining it all up

How it works in practice I don’t know, although I did read an article once saying Nottingham City Transport bosses had to hold their nerve for a very long time after they introduced it, as there were angry letters and petitions every week for months.

To clarify that was because the cross-city routes that had largely been introduced in th 1980s were scrapped; before then there was only less than a handful of such services and the 1980s introduction was one of complete confusion as they initially went with buses from a variety of starting points ending up at the same terminus and using the old outbound route nunber for all those workings meaning buses in opposite directions had different numbers.

[rossbailey]

Jan 18, 2023 22:39:47 GMT 1 twansport said:

Problem with targeting the 4 and 16 routes for splitting is Jimmys (St James Hospital), which attracts a quantity of cross city centre traffic.

Chopping the 16 in half during Monday to Saturday daytime's may work better as long both services continue to serve St James Hospital. Then leave the off peak & Sunday 16/16A services to run as they are now as full cross city routing.

Eg

Monday to Saturday daytimes
Pudsey - Farsley - Bramley - Armley - Leeds - St James Hospital
Leeds City Square - St James Hospital - Seacroft - Whinmoor

Off peak & Sundays
Pudsey - Farsley - Bramley - Armley - Leeds - St James Hospital - Seacorft - Whinmoor