77syk7
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Post by 77syk7 on Nov 14, 2022 12:24:55 GMT 1
I have tried to observe workings on the 'new' truncated 571 route now run by Arriva to check reliability over these last few weeks.
It seems as though the buses interwork with the 255 and one of the problems I have observed is that 2 Arriva buses take up spaces in the much reduced temporary Halifax Bus Station at xx25 per hour - this affects all the other services with lack of spaces.
It is not an easy route to run; the tricky reversal at Southowram, the 16% hill up/down to Brookfoot and then the often congested roads in and out to Brighouse. It then traverses the narrow residential roads with a trip around the Whinney Hill Estate before joining Wakefield Road to join the notorious Hipperholme Crossroads which is one of the most difficult junctions to negotiate whichever direction you are going. Then upwards towards Shelf via the pleasant, but totally sparsely populated hamlet of Coley before completing the lengthy 'turnaround' route around further narrow streets to terminate at Shelf Village Hall (where the 508 & 681/2 have a timing point)
Despite these difficulties, all journeys throughout the week have the same journey time in both directions - eg Friday peak hours journey, exactly the same as Sunday morning.
I am not trying to be over critical of Arriva, but have the 'timetable schedulers' ridden on the buses to experience the journeys at different times of day?
Are the residents of these areas receiving an improved service than previously operated by First?
Comments please.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Nov 14, 2022 12:29:40 GMT 1
In regards to the bus station, the 571 has a stand all to itself (besides schools) so that shouldn't be a problem
First leaving buses on stand with no driver is probably more a cause of congestion in the bus station
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Post by dennisthemenace504 on Nov 14, 2022 19:35:39 GMT 1
In regards to the bus station, the 571 has a stand all to itself (besides schools) so that shouldn't be a problem First leaving buses on stand with no driver is probably more a cause of congestion in the bus station Actually, 571 uses stand C, and now so does 548/449, the 571 that I did today at 1425 Brighouse, went off E, cos all were full with dumped First buses. Before Arriva started running it, 571 departed from Broad Street outside the bus station, which I had to show staff, before Metro decided to put it into bus station |
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Danny
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Post by Danny on Nov 16, 2022 21:46:37 GMT 1
In regards to the bus station, the 571 has a stand all to itself (besides schools) so that shouldn't be a problem First leaving buses on stand with no driver is probably more a cause of congestion in the bus station Actually, 571 uses stand C, and now so does 548/449, the 571 that I did today at 1425 Brighouse, went off E, cos all were full with dumped First buses. Before Arriva started running it, 571 departed from Broad Street outside the bus station, which I had to show staff, before Metro decided to put it into bus station The 571 never started at Broad Street, always was the bus station. The turn at Southawram is simple enough, I used to get the B10BLEs & B7RLEs round in one. Coley used to be a pain when the church had an event on with all the parked cars. |
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Username
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Post by Username on Nov 16, 2022 22:54:32 GMT 1
Actually, 571 uses stand C, and now so does 548/449, the 571 that I did today at 1425 Brighouse, went off E, cos all were full with dumped First buses. Before Arriva started running it, 571 departed from Broad Street outside the bus station, which I had to show staff, before Metro decided to put it into bus station The 571 never started at Broad Street, always was the bus station. The turn at Southawram is simple enough, I used to get the B10BLEs & B7RLEs round in one. Coley used to be a pain when the church had an event on with all the parked cars. I'd feel sorry for anyone having to drive the Eclipse 2s down there. I swear those are the longest vehicles on the fleet. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2022 2:10:49 GMT 1
The 571 never started at Broad Street, always was the bus station. The turn at Southawram is simple enough, I used to get the B10BLEs & B7RLEs round in one. Coley used to be a pain when the church had an event on with all the parked cars. I'd feel sorry for anyone having to drive the Eclipse 2s down there. I swear those are the longest vehicles on the fleet. The Eclipse 2s are the same length as the older Eclipses,both on 12m B7RLE Chassis |
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Username
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I need to get my eyes checked, I've just seen a Streetlite and my eyes are burning
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Post by Username on Nov 17, 2022 18:37:59 GMT 1
I'd feel sorry for anyone having to drive the Eclipse 2s down there. I swear those are the longest vehicles on the fleet. The Eclipse 2s are the same length as the older Eclipses,both on 12m B7RLE Chassis Oh well, are they're any longer vehicles at Halifax. If not I know the Enviro 400s are quite wide compared to the Geminis. |
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jus363
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Post by jus363 on Nov 17, 2022 19:24:45 GMT 1
The Eclipse 2s are the same length as the older Eclipses,both on 12m B7RLE Chassis Oh well, are they're any longer vehicles at Halifax. If not I know the Enviro 400s are quite wide compared to the Geminis. Only by 25mm |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2022 20:45:31 GMT 1
I have tried to observe workings on the 'new' truncated 571 route now run by Arriva to check reliability over these last few weeks. It seems as though the buses interwork with the 255 and one of the problems I have observed is that 2 Arriva buses take up spaces in the much reduced temporary Halifax Bus Station at xx25 per hour - this affects all the other services with lack of spaces. It is not an easy route to run; the tricky reversal at Southowram, the 16% hill up/down to Brookfoot and then the often congested roads in and out to Brighouse. It then traverses the narrow residential roads with a trip around the Whinney Hill Estate before joining Wakefield Road to join the notorious Hipperholme Crossroads which is one of the most difficult junctions to negotiate whichever direction you are going. Then upwards towards Shelf via the pleasant, but totally sparsely populated hamlet of Coley before completing the lengthy 'turnaround' route around further narrow streets to terminate at Shelf Village Hall (where the 508 & 681/2 have a timing point) Despite these difficulties, all journeys throughout the week have the same journey time in both directions - eg Friday peak hours journey, exactly the same as Sunday morning. I am not trying to be over critical of Arriva, but have the 'timetable schedulers' ridden on the buses to experience the journeys at different times of day? Are the residents of these areas receiving an improved service than previously operated by First? Comments please. With it being a tendered service, wouldn't the timetable have been designed by Metro rather than Arriva? If so i don't think you can blame Arrvia's schedulers for it unless any unreliability is connected to the interworking with 255. The Eclipse 2s are the same length as the older Eclipses,both on 12m B7RLE Chassis Oh well, are they're any longer vehicles at Halifax. If not I know the Enviro 400s are quite wide compared to the Geminis. Currently the Eclipses are the longest, although it also depends on the Steering lock on the bus, as 'stretched out' midi-buses like the full length E200MMC,Versas & Streetlite MAX are known to take larger turning circles than something like an Eclipse despite being upto half a metre shorter. |
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Post by jxke_0731 on Nov 18, 2022 1:05:52 GMT 1
Coming from someone who lives on the route and uses it daily, it has serious reliability problems.
Just today only 2 571's ran full route, with many terminating in Brighouse (albeit some are timetabled to, yet even ones that were meant to go to Shelf terminated in Brighouse)
As a whole, it is seriously unreliable, drivers do not know the route well enough, with me having to tell drivers where to go, with them frequently going the wrong way, or just missing some stops out.
Cancellations are common, espescially on evening runs, yet Arriva do not notify Metro to cancel them.
Whilst it is nice that the route has been saved, the route is that unrealiable that it almost feels like it hasn't been saved.
The route and interworking with the 255 seriously needs to be looked at, as well as training drivers properly on the route, and the issue of the 571's terminating at Brighouse rather than Shelf needs to be addressed urgently.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Nov 18, 2022 9:13:37 GMT 1
Whereas reliability on the 255 has gone up, because as described above when there are delays on the 255, like there was yesterday with the chaos on the M62, the linked 571 often then only runs to Brighouse meaning the return 571 and 255 are then back on time
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77syk7
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Post by 77syk7 on Nov 18, 2022 10:56:29 GMT 1
Thanks for your comments and observations, 'oli' and welcome to the forum.
I am unsure if all of the 571 route is tendered or some journeys, so maybe I owe an apology to the network schedulers at Arriva if that is the case. However, whoever was fully responsible does urgently need to look again at this route.
My point about Halifax Bus Station congestion is that at xx25 past the hour 2 Arriva buses on the 255 / 571 take up 2 of the 6 stands and there is bound to be congestion with First buses trying to gain their spaces on the busy 576 / 548/9 etc.
Not too sure why the 255 and 571 interwork as it would seem to me the present 'unreliable' timetable requires just 2 buses for their 2 hour round trip.
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Post by Father Dougal McGuire on Nov 18, 2022 11:01:28 GMT 1
I'd feel sorry for anyone having to drive the Eclipse 2s down there. I swear those are the longest vehicles on the fleet. The Eclipse 2s are the same length as the older Eclipses,both on 12m B7RLE Chassis Eclipse 2/07 onwards plates are slightly longer than the Euro 3 667s. |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Nov 18, 2022 11:28:24 GMT 1
Not too sure why the 255 and 571 interwork as it would seem to me the present 'unreliable' timetable requires just 2 buses for their 2 hour round trip. So they don't have to do remote reliefs, the drivers can changeover in Cleckheaton as normal |
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Post by jxke_0731 on Nov 18, 2022 11:42:25 GMT 1
Just thought I’d add what has happened so far this morning, 1112 arrived into Halifax 3 minutes early, which was meant to do the 08:25 571 to Shelf, then the 09:20 571 to Halifax, instead it was left in Halifax for 2 hours and didn’t complete any 571’s despite being early.
Not a moan, just something worth noting.
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Post by deerfold on Nov 18, 2022 13:23:56 GMT 1
With it being a tendered service, wouldn't the timetable have been designed by Metro rather than Arriva? If so i don't think you can blame Arrvia's schedulers for it unless any unreliability is connected to the interworking with 255. Most tendered contacts will say "first bus not later than x, last bus not earlier than y, no gaps of more than z, or n buses per day". A small number of contracts will specify an exact timetable - North Yorkshire set the timetable for the 78A, putting the driver breaks in Skipton which disadvantaged Transdev. |
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Post by mutty on Nov 18, 2022 17:12:01 GMT 1
Just thought I’d add what has happened so far this morning, 1112 arrived into Halifax 3 minutes early, which was meant to do the 08:25 571 to Shelf, then the 09:20 571 to Halifax, instead it was left in Halifax for 2 hours and didn’t complete any 571’s despite being early. Not a moan, just something worth noting. A lot of drivers don’t know the route and now pilots have been pulled too, so this will mean more and more 571’s don’t operate . |
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Nov 18, 2022 17:45:19 GMT 1
With it being a tendered service, wouldn't the timetable have been designed by Metro rather than Arriva? If so i don't think you can blame Arrvia's schedulers for it unless any unreliability is connected to the interworking with 255. Most tendered contacts will say "first bus not later than x, last bus not earlier than y, no gaps of more than z, or n buses per day". A small number of contracts will specify an exact timetable - North Yorkshire set the timetable for the 78A, putting the driver breaks in Skipton which disadvantaged Transdev. It is normal for councils to specify the exact timetable they want operators to bid on, except in the case of some entirely new service concepts I have never seen a local authority tender that didn't include an example timetable (even if they were inviting options/alternatives from operators). I think TfL tend towards the sort of more general tender specification you outline due to their high frequency service levels but provincial authorities, even the PTEs, include a full timetable. Tendering Authorities do, however, normally accept an alternative timetable proposal from an operator that offers a better service or a cheaper price (such as retiming to allow interworking to save on having to ferry drivers out for breaks from a depot) |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2022 18:29:39 GMT 1
Just thought I’d add what has happened so far this morning, 1112 arrived into Halifax 3 minutes early, which was meant to do the 08:25 571 to Shelf, then the 09:20 571 to Halifax, instead it was left in Halifax for 2 hours and didn’t complete any 571’s despite being early. Not a moan, just something worth noting. Sounds like it could of been that there was no driver to change over in Cleckheaton,so the same driver completed the 255 to Halifax then took their break there? I Think given the current mess Arriva are in drivers wise it's no surprise there's trips missing & I'd assume Metro would of known that was a risk when given them the contract. |
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Post by dennisthemenace504 on Nov 19, 2022 23:50:05 GMT 1
No, ALL 255 driver changeovers happen at Cleckheaton, and as mutty has mentioned, the pilots were pulled off at the end of October, staff that don't know it, HAVE to put in a request for a pilot in advance of the day that they're on it.
If they have someone available to do the piloting, then fine, but that's not always possible, as recently, they've been sending one of the spares over to pilot, he can only do one 2 hour round trip at a time.
Staff were reluctant to come in on their days off to route learn both 571 and the Huddersfield 377/378's, despite being paid.
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Nov 20, 2022 9:48:54 GMT 1
It's a good opportunity for South Pennine to move in for the kill and put extra journeys on, I'm very surprised the 571 is allowed to run with subsidy bearing in mind the majority is mirrored by the South Pennine commercial route, even though that only runs daytime only. What should have happened is a much smaller tender for two AM peak journeys only as far as Brighouse and two PM peak plus a limited evening service again as far as Brighouse with the Brighouse to Shelf section replaced by a couple of daytime return workings on the 526.
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Post by moorside on Nov 21, 2022 1:01:46 GMT 1
The South Pennine HX2 only runs Mondays to Fridays, roughly between 10 am and 2 pm, with some six journeys between Hx and Southowram, and two returns to Brighouse. Some of the journeys run at almost the same time as the 571 (if it is running!). The "Southowram" page on Facebook is full of complaints over the 571: journeys missing, cancellations at short notice, some trips missing out Southowram terminus, people being late for work / college / school, with quite a few parents having to organise taxis to get youngsters home etc. Apparently today (Sunday) the first two morning journeys never turned up.
Southowram must be one of the places with the worst decline in bus services over the years. Sadly the present situation is one of a spiral of decline: the service is tendered because it loses money, but passengers are put off because of its unreliability, making other arrangements for journeys (taxis / lifts / walking) so it becomes even less viable.
Interesting idea about extending some 526 journeys from Shelf to Brighouse: these would partly replicate the erstwhile Brighouse-Queensbury route.
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Nov 21, 2022 7:04:10 GMT 1
The South Pennine HX2 only runs Mondays to Fridays, roughly between 10 am and 2 pm, with some six journeys between Hx and Southowram, and two returns to Brighouse. Some of the journeys run at almost the same time as the 571 (if it is running!). The "Southowram" page on Facebook is full of complaints over the 571: journeys missing, cancellations at short notice, some trips missing out Southowram terminus, people being late for work / college / school, with quite a few parents having to organise taxis to get youngsters home etc. Apparently today (Sunday) the first two morning journeys never turned up. Southowram must be one of the places with the worst decline in bus services over the years. Sadly the present situation is one of a spiral of decline: the service is tendered because it loses money, but passengers are put off because of its unreliability, making other arrangements for journeys (taxis / lifts / walking) so it becomes even less viable. Interesting idea about extending some 526 journeys from Shelf to Brighouse: these would partly replicate the erstwhile Brighouse-Queensbury route. That makes this tender even more dodgy if they're running at almost the same time as the HX2, which is commercial. That's why I've said the tender should have been amended not to include daytime workings, WYCA aren't allowed to tender for like for like journeys over a commercial route, and I very much doubt there is much demand for the unique 571 section (Brighouse to Shelf) from any point between Halifax and Shelf to justify a full on tender of the whole route. South Pennine could have good cause to complain which given their good nature I doubt they will. |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Nov 21, 2022 13:47:09 GMT 1
As has been pointed out, South Pennine only run two transit vans per day beyond Southowram to Brighouse. I’m not sure the presence of these services would stop a tender from being awarded
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Post by dennisthemenace504 on Nov 24, 2022 11:00:28 GMT 1
Surely if South Pennine wanted to put a bid in for the 571 route to maybe extend their HX2 route or run it separately, they would've done.
And like the bigger operators, they too are suffering with a driver shortage, which maybe the reason why they didn't.
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