What can be done to make the 784 more sustainable?

[joseph]

Firstly we've seen First split the X84 through Skipton workings into two services with a split at Otley, that clearly didn't work, then we've seen Transdev take over the 784 side of the split only to cut that to a mostly Ilkley to Skipton service. I can't really see that working out even when lockdown ends, or even Covid for that matter, as the only real market will be on the AM and PM college workings with the rest of the journeys mostly made up of a handful of pass holders from Ilkley, Skipton, and maybe Addingham, although with only the options of Ilkley and Skipton that may not attract that many. The only other settlement on the route is a tiny village called Draughton, and Ilkley is hardly a big enough draw to sustain 3 buses per hour from Addingham. 

You could reduce the frequency of the 62, with the 30 minute frequency maintained between Keighley and Silsden only, but that'll only take through custom away with those travelling beyond Silsden to Addingham and Ilkley put off by the hourly frequency.

Would joining the 72 and the 784 together work, with through ticketing offered onto the Upper Wharfedale bus and the Wharfedale rail/bus ticket being valid as well? More destinations, ok they are on the small side, but more importantly with an hourly frequency, and 6 day a week operation, it offers a much better service between Grassington and Ilkley than the 74 and 74A offers which is bound to attract tripper traffic once Covid starts to ease off. You've also got the sub benefit that people from Ilkley/Addingham and Grassington can reach each end more often than relying on the skeleton 74 and 74A services. The 74/A wouldn't be too affected themselves, as they do offer a slightly quicker journey than via Skipton and serve other popular locations such as Bolton Abbey. The timetable will no doubt need to change, and you do have the problem of how to work the college 784 bus into it, but with a complete timetable re-working, it could work out.

Because of the need for a bigger bus on college days, you couldn't join the 784 onto the 962 without splitting off the college service, but it's an option with the morning 784 big bus used to work onto an extra 66 service, then maybe used on the Asda bus during the day til it's needed for the PM college working. Again that could run an extra 66 to Skipton before commencing the 784. It's then possible to link the 784 and 962 together during the daytime, although this option will need additional man hours to cover the extra 66 journeys. 

So, what other options are possible? Oh and Alex, should you possibly read this thread, I'll take 10% commission if you've implemented any of my ideas, and they are a success lol.

[stephen01]

Jan 17, 2021 10:15:40 GMT 1 joseph said:

Firstly we've seen First split the X84 through Skipton workings into two services with a split at Otley, that clearly didn't work, then we've seen Transdev take over the 784 side of the split only to cut that to a mostly Ilkley to Skipton service. I can't really see that working out even when lockdown ends, or even Covid for that matter, as the only real market will be on the AM and PM college workings with the rest of the journeys mostly made up of a handful of pass holders from Ilkley, Skipton, and maybe Addingham, although with only the options of Ilkley and Skipton that may not attract that many. The only other settlement on the route is a tiny village called Draughton, and Ilkley is hardly a big enough draw to sustain 3 buses per hour from Addingham. 

You could reduce the frequency of the 62, with the 30 minute frequency maintained between Keighley and Silsden only, but that'll only take through custom away with those travelling beyond Silsden to Addingham and Ilkley put off by the hourly frequency.

Would joining the 72 and the 784 together work, with through ticketing offered onto the Upper Wharfedale bus and the Wharfedale rail/bus ticket being valid as well? More destinations, ok they are on the small side, but more importantly with an hourly frequency, and 6 day a week operation, it offers a much better service between Grassington and Ilkley than the 74 and 74A offers which is bound to attract tripper traffic once Covid starts to ease off. You've also got the sub benefit that people from Ilkley/Addingham and Grassington can reach each end more often than relying on the skeleton 74 and 74A services. The 74/A wouldn't be too affected themselves, as they do offer a slightly quicker journey than via Skipton and serve other popular locations such as Bolton Abbey. The timetable will no doubt need to change, and you do have the problem of how to work the college 784 bus into it, but with a complete timetable re-working, it could work out.

Because of the need for a bigger bus on college days, you couldn't join the 784 onto the 962 without splitting off the college service, but it's an option with the morning 784 big bus used to work onto an extra 66 service, then maybe used on the Asda bus during the day til it's needed for the PM college working. Again that could run an extra 66 to Skipton before commencing the 784. It's then possible to link the 784 and 962 together during the daytime, although this option will need additional man hours to cover the extra 66 journeys. 

So, what other options are possible? Oh and Alex, should you possibly read this thread, I'll take 10% commission if you've implemented any of my ideas, and they are a success lol.

its all good and well saying about changes to the 784 but its already confirmed the timetable that started 10th Jan 2021 is here to stay permanently and only uses the one bus bearing in mind the with A3 extending to Otley etc that needs more vehicles.

[joseph]

Ah, but will it be permanent? After all it's a service that has seen quite a few changes, so much so that the so called temporary changes during lockdown have now been made permanent, so maybe Transdev are giving it one last shot using 1 vehicle on a much shortened route to see if it'll work, which IMO I doubt it will for reasons I've explained. IMO, as I've explained above it needs something else, and that something else is another market such as day trippers from Leeds, more destinations giving the existing target markets of Ilkley and Addingham somewhere else to go to etc. Now, ok, the latter has been tried already with the extension to Otley, but the section between Ilkley and Otley is frankly saturated, so the 784 is relying on Addingham to Otley users really, of which there wouldn't be that many. Adding Grassington into the mix, you've got an attractive unique destination served only by NYCC on a bit part basis, you're also giving residents in Grassington, Threshfield etc more opportunities to access Ilkley which could in itself attract more custom.

[stevieinselby]

If the new incarnation of the 784 as being essentially a single bus running backwards and forwards between Skipton and Ilkley doesn't turn out to be viable, or is unpopular with passengers because it requires them to change buses, then a sensible alternative would be for Connexions to try extending the X52 to Skipton. This already runs a regular hourly service – unlike the 72 – so it would be a very easy change to the timetable, and would reinstate direct links from Skipton to Otley and Harrogate, but without the duplication that the earlier incarnation of the 784 had. I would imagine that would be more useful to more passengers than improving links between Grassington and Ilkley, given that that route only merits 2/3 buses a day, 3 days a week.

The only limitation here is that because the X52 generally uses double-deckers, it would have to run via The Bailey and not Otley Road, like the X84 used to, to avoid the low bridge. If the high street is closed for markets then I guess it could wiggle through Greenacres/Uplands/Kingsway, which would provide it with a route through.

[stephen01]

Jan 17, 2021 11:01:22 GMT 1 joseph said:

Ah, but will it be permanent? After all it's a service that has seen quite a few changes, so much so that the so called temporary changes during lockdown have now been made permanent, so maybe Transdev are giving it one last shot using 1 vehicle on a much shortened route to see if it'll work, which IMO I doubt it will for reasons I've explained. IMO, as I've explained above it needs something else, and that something else is another market such as day trippers from Leeds, more destinations giving the existing target markets of Ilkley and Addingham somewhere else to go to etc. Now, ok, the latter has been tried already with the extension to Otley, but the section between Ilkley and Otley is frankly saturated, so the 784 is relying on Addingham to Otley users really, of which there wouldn't be that many. Adding Grassington into the mix, you've got an attractive unique destination served only by NYCC on a bit part basis, you're also giving residents in Grassington, Threshfield etc more opportunities to access Ilkley which could in itself attract more custom.

The problem with the 784 is that its not had long enough to get established fully. When First set it up last year the current routing was selected because of traffic issues. Granted it was timed to link with the X84 at Ilkley still and the 85 (X85 still at the time) and it was still the same when Transdev took over but bearing in mind the 784 didn't exist in the first lockdown and didnt have a reduction so the changes that have just been made will have been taken via customer feedback and the numbers carried since it started up last year. Now it could work linking up with the 72 and then Transdev can also look with NYCC at the viability of tweaking the 74/74a to link with them be it still run by NYCC or transfered to Transdev. Don't forget there's also Dalesway 66 they can look to time the 72 & 784 to connect with as well as Pendlewizz which again will need to take time & careful planning to co-ordinate. The problem is as well is at the minute with 784 is they can't increase capacity to a Decker whilst its run at Idle Depot unless it was moved over to Keighley and interworked with the 62 at Ilkley but that means running the 784 on the old heavy traffic routing which is why the route was set up as it is.

[Burnside]

IIRC, the 784 was rerouted in Skipton, not because of traffic, but because of the closure of Skipton High Street on Market Days for social distancing.

[stevieinselby]

Jan 17, 2021 17:52:27 GMT 1 Burnside said:

IIRC, the 784 was rerouted in Skipton, not because of traffic, but because of the closure of Skipton High Street on Market Days for social distancing.

That's right ... the closure of Skipton High Street meant that the X84 had to be re-routed along Otley Road, which runs under a low bridge. First, quite understandably, didn't want to be running single-deckers on the X84, and so the through service was stopped.

[dlspotter]

I was recently thinking that Transdev would be trying to make Skipton a new hub-town when they took over the 784, the only non-Transdev routes being those operated by NYCC and the 280 Clitheroe to Preston (which they used to operate years back)

The only thing I could see being done to make it more sustainable and accessible would be a Harrogate extension on the X52, however I'm not too sure Transdev would be very happy to give the service up. I'm sure that in a regular summer it would be popular with passholders for connections onto the Dales, however Transdev have only held this service since September. The only other places I could imagine being attractive enough for people to want to take a bus for that duration would be Leeds and Bradford. Leeds obviously got cut (assuming due to the reason above that First didn't want to run a full-route on a single), which could've taken custom away from the bus who may've thought 'If I'm going to have to change bus I might as well take the train'
The other place being Bradford; now I can't imagine that happening at all given that there's two trains per hour, a suitably enough connection from the half-hourly Dalesway to the every ten minutes Shuttle taking long enough, and the fact that at present there are no buses between Bradford and Ilkley makes me think that it's something that's been tried in the past and failed.

Is the route subsidised between Ilkley and Skipton?

[dlspotter]

If it weren't for the competition with the successful and frequent X84, I'm sure that Transdev could've tried the full Leeds route. It seemed to be the only viable option (unless the X84 only extended to Skipton due to the subsidy), and it would mean people could travel to Leeds from Lancashire on one ticket without having to go through Keighley.

[kenh]

just extend the A3 through to Skipton...

In Ilkley go Bollings Rd and stop at the hospital. the do grove rd/Victoria Ave to get to the road to Addingham. In skipton do Greenacre estate so NYCC can withdraw their Minibus. Nice subsidy grab, maybe.

[dlspotter]

Jan 17, 2021 19:22:03 GMT 1 kenh said:

just extend the A3 through to Skipton...

In Ilkley go Bollings Rd and stop at the hospital. the do grove rd/Victoria Ave to get to the road to Addingham. In skipton do Greenacre estate so NYCC can withdraw their Minibus. Nice subsidy grab, maybe.

Not sure if that would then become an issue regarding driver breaks/timings and vehicle availability
Then again there's probably a driver change at the Airport anyway

[humberside]

Jan 17, 2021 18:53:21 GMT 1 dlspotter said:

I was recently thinking that Transdev would be trying to make Skipton a new hub-town when they took over the 784, the only non-Transdev routes being those operated by NYCC and the 280 Clitheroe to Preston (which they used to operate years back)

There is also Kirkby Lonsdale's 580 to Settle which is a commercially operated route (though the 581 & 582 sections are subsidised).
lancsbus.blogspot.com/2019/10/service-582-developments.html

Not sure if the currently suspended Saturday 75 to Malham is commercial either or whether it is tendered (the reason I question is that it operates instead of some 580 journeys)

[deerfold]

Jan 17, 2021 18:53:21 GMT 1 dlspotter said:

I was recently thinking that Transdev would be trying to make Skipton a new hub-town when they took over the 784, the only non-Transdev routes being those operated by NYCC and the 280 Clitheroe to Preston (which they used to operate years back)

The only thing I could see being done to make it more sustainable and accessible would be a Harrogate extension on the X52, however I'm not too sure Transdev would be very happy to give the service up. I'm sure that in a regular summer it would be popular with passholders for connections onto the Dales, however Transdev have only held this service since September. The only other places I could imagine being attractive enough for people to want to take a bus for that duration would be Leeds and Bradford. Leeds obviously got cut (assuming due to the reason above that First didn't want to run a full-route on a single), which could've taken custom away from the bus who may've thought 'If I'm going to have to change bus I might as well take the train'
The other place being Bradford; now I can't imagine that happening at all given that there's two trains per hour, a suitably enough connection from the half-hourly Dalesway to the every ten minutes Shuttle taking long enough, and the fact that at present there are no buses between Bradford and Ilkley makes me think that it's something that's been tried in the past and failed.

Is the route subsidised between Ilkley and Skipton?

There used to be 2 buses an hour between Ilkley and Bradford (650/651). However the rail service was worse than hourly. Including these there were 6+bph between Guiseley and Bradford.

According to Metro, the 784 is not subsidised. I think the only journeys that have been subsidised on the X84 were evening and Sunday journeys to Skipton.
wymetro.com/media/6511/wharfedale_bus_freq.pdf

[stephen01]

Jan 17, 2021 22:33:54 GMT 1 deerfold said:

Jan 17, 2021 18:53:21 GMT 1 dlspotter said:

I was recently thinking that Transdev would be trying to make Skipton a new hub-town when they took over the 784, the only non-Transdev routes being those operated by NYCC and the 280 Clitheroe to Preston (which they used to operate years back)

The only thing I could see being done to make it more sustainable and accessible would be a Harrogate extension on the X52, however I'm not too sure Transdev would be very happy to give the service up. I'm sure that in a regular summer it would be popular with passholders for connections onto the Dales, however Transdev have only held this service since September. The only other places I could imagine being attractive enough for people to want to take a bus for that duration would be Leeds and Bradford. Leeds obviously got cut (assuming due to the reason above that First didn't want to run a full-route on a single), which could've taken custom away from the bus who may've thought 'If I'm going to have to change bus I might as well take the train'
The other place being Bradford; now I can't imagine that happening at all given that there's two trains per hour, a suitably enough connection from the half-hourly Dalesway to the every ten minutes Shuttle taking long enough, and the fact that at present there are no buses between Bradford and Ilkley makes me think that it's something that's been tried in the past and failed.

Is the route subsidised between Ilkley and Skipton?

There used to be 2 buses an hour between Ilkley and Bradford (650/651). However the rail service was worse than hourly. Including these there were 6+bph between Guiseley and Bradford.

According to Metro, the 784 is not subsidised. I think the only journeys that have been subsidised on the X84 were evening and Sunday journeys to Skipton.
wymetro.com/media/6511/wharfedale_bus_freq.pdf

Well reading that info sheet the 784 is now basically the Dalesbus 884 Keighley runs in the Summer. I never realised that 173a/174/174, 412, and the Airport buses were classes as Wharfedale routes. Also slight inaccuracy is that the X49 is also operated by TLC and not Tiger. Also its odd that Dalesway 66 isn't listed either.

[westyorkshirebus]

Jan 17, 2021 23:25:43 GMT 1 stephen01 said:

Jan 17, 2021 22:33:54 GMT 1 deerfold said:

There used to be 2 buses an hour between Ilkley and Bradford (650/651). However the rail service was worse than hourly. Including these there were 6+bph between Guiseley and Bradford.

According to Metro, the 784 is not subsidised. I think the only journeys that have been subsidised on the X84 were evening and Sunday journeys to Skipton.
wymetro.com/media/6511/wharfedale_bus_freq.pdf

Well reading that info sheet the 784 is now basically the Dalesbus 884 Keighley runs in the Summer. I never realised that 173a/174/174, 412, and the Airport buses were classes as Wharfedale routes. Also slight inaccuracy is that the X49 is also operated by TLC and not Tiger. Also its odd that Dalesway 66 isn't listed either.

All that list is is the reverse side of this map www.wymetro.com/media/6512/wharfedale.pdf

[Bradford Traveller]

Jan 17, 2021 23:25:43 GMT 1 stephen01 said:

Well reading that info sheet the 784 is now basically the Dalesbus 884 Keighley runs in the Summer. I never realised that 173a/174/174, 412, and the Airport buses were classed as Wharfedale routes. Also slight inaccuracy is that the X49 is also operated by TLC and not Tiger. Also its odd that Dalesway 66 isn't listed either.

It's just a list of routes in or around the Wharfedale area, as shown on Metro's Wharfedale area map.
X49 has never been a TLC route (it was an extra journey on the 649 board when Tiger had it). It should have been deleted from the map.
Dalesway 66 has never gone into Wharfedale, unless you include the former 66A Sunday extension to Grassington?

[js12345678910]

One potential option I have heard is the 784 could interwork with the 62 (Keighley-Ilkley-Skipton-Ilkley-Keighley). The reason for this, is that it is a difficulty at present with the 784 only running Ilkley-Skipton to change the driver over (with the drivers being based out at Idle), running the service like this will allow them to change drivers every time it gets to Keighley. 

[dlspotter]

Jan 18, 2021 10:14:27 GMT 1 js12345678910 said:

One potential option I have heard is the 784 could interwork with the 62 (Keighley-Ilkley-Skipton-Ilkley-Keighley). The reason for this, is that it is a difficulty at present with the 784 only running Ilkley-Skipton to change the driver over (with the drivers being based out at Idle), running the service like this will allow them to change drivers every time it gets to Keighley. 

I could see this being the preferred option

[deerfold]

Jan 18, 2021 10:14:27 GMT 1 js12345678910 said:

One potential option I have heard is the 784 could interwork with the 62 (Keighley-Ilkley-Skipton-Ilkley-Keighley). The reason for this, is that it is a difficulty at present with the 784 only running Ilkley-Skipton to change the driver over (with the drivers being based out at Idle), running the service like this will allow them to change drivers every time it gets to Keighley. 

This might be useful if the service wasn't based at Idle.

[deerfold]

Jan 18, 2021 1:25:19 GMT 1 Bradford Traveller said:

Jan 17, 2021 23:25:43 GMT 1 stephen01 said:

Well reading that info sheet the 784 is now basically the Dalesbus 884 Keighley runs in the Summer. I never realised that 173a/174/174, 412, and the Airport buses were classed as Wharfedale routes. Also slight inaccuracy is that the X49 is also operated by TLC and not Tiger. Also its odd that Dalesway 66 isn't listed either.

It's just a list of routes in or around the Wharfedale area, as shown on Metro's Wharfedale area map.
X49 has never been a TLC route (it was an extra journey on the 649 board when Tiger had it). It should have been deleted from the map.
Dalesway 66 has never gone into Wharfedale, unless you include the former 66A Sunday extension to Grassington?

It has a few errors, including the 784 being shown as run by Harrogate Buses, but as far as I know is the only publically available way of telling if Metro subsidise a route (NYCC don't).

[westyorkshirebus]

Jan 18, 2021 11:22:03 GMT 1 deerfold said:

Jan 18, 2021 10:14:27 GMT 1 js12345678910 said:

One potential option I have heard is the 784 could interwork with the 62 (Keighley-Ilkley-Skipton-Ilkley-Keighley). The reason for this, is that it is a difficulty at present with the 784 only running Ilkley-Skipton to change the driver over (with the drivers being based out at Idle), running the service like this will allow them to change drivers every time it gets to Keighley. 

This might be useful if the service wasn't based at Idle.

To compensate I wonder if the Wharfedale Links/Otley Dash may move to Idle

[stephen01]

Jan 18, 2021 10:30:19 GMT 1 dlspotter said:

Jan 18, 2021 10:14:27 GMT 1 js12345678910 said:

One potential option I have heard is the 784 could interwork with the 62 (Keighley-Ilkley-Skipton-Ilkley-Keighley). The reason for this, is that it is a difficulty at present with the 784 only running Ilkley-Skipton to change the driver over (with the drivers being based out at Idle), running the service like this will allow them to change drivers every time it gets to Keighley. 

I could see this being the preferred option

but that would have a knock on effect on the 67 as that currently interworks with 62 at Keighley Monday-Saturday

[dlspotter]

Jan 18, 2021 11:51:41 GMT 1 stephen01 said:

Jan 18, 2021 10:30:19 GMT 1 dlspotter said:

I could see this being the preferred option

but that would have a knock on effect on the 67 as that currently interworks with 62 at Keighley Monday-Saturday

It depends though because the 67 and 784 are only hourly whilst the 62 is half-hourly, does the other 62 self-interwork?

[stephen01]

Jan 18, 2021 13:51:34 GMT 1 dlspotter said:

Jan 18, 2021 11:51:41 GMT 1 stephen01 said:

but that would have a knock on effect on the 67 as that currently interworks with 62 at Keighley Monday-Saturday

It depends though because the 67 and 784 are only hourly whilst the 62 is half-hourly, does the other 62 self-interwork?

judging via bustimes theres only 2 boards that run on the 62 from Keighley to the airport (including deckers which the Airport have never been keen on been used when Tiger ran 737/747/757 (now A1-A3) from their old Leeds depot with the rest interworking with the 67.

[westyorkshirebus]

Jan 18, 2021 11:51:41 GMT 1 stephen01 said:

Jan 18, 2021 10:30:19 GMT 1 dlspotter said:

I could see this being the preferred option

but that would have a knock on effect on the 67 as that currently interworks with 62 at Keighley Monday-Saturday

I can’t see any issue there, in fact it’d work just like the 62 extending to the Airport does now. One journey would just run to Skipton instead, but as a separate route number.