Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 20:18:40 GMT 1
First are putting fares up again from 21st October that should go down a storm!
A further cynical attempt to push people towards mticket and cashless payments, the card process is so slow I watched a bus loading in Albion Street and and couldn’t believe how slow it was people paid with card.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 17:09:44 GMT 1
|
|
SF07
Forum Member
Posts: 3,216
|
Post by SF07 on Oct 15, 2018 19:39:14 GMT 1
Also no mention as to how much fare are going up by  |
|
|
|
Post by ajw11239 on Oct 15, 2018 20:04:06 GMT 1
They always do that now. It won't help on the date of the change when people don't know how much money they need.
And re. the contactless comment above - I actually don't know why First seem to think it'll change the world and speed the boarding times up. In reality, it doesn't. They've been specifically targeting students with it in York - on the 66 where a return is £2. Pre-contactless, most people had the exact change which was probably the fastest way to buy a ticket. But with contactless it actually takes much longer and it's slowing things down in real terms. Contactless would speed things up if it was implemented like the TfL system of tap and charge.
|
|
kendall17
Forum Member
Justice for the 96!
Posts: 4,514
|
Post by kendall17 on Oct 16, 2018 7:44:45 GMT 1
You look at how new mobile ticketing & contactless payments are for bus companies/machine suppliers & it's obvious that there will be software updates will eventually make the loading process quicker.
Cash is no longer king. No more change vouchers, no more "I'm 20p short". It will speed things up.
|
|
|
|
Post by dennisthemenace504 on Oct 16, 2018 13:00:32 GMT 1
How much is the Weekly ticket for Huddersfield going up by?
I can't find any new prices?
Girlfriend used to get it on her mobile, but, then it crashed on her, she deleted and reinstalled but, it won't let her log in, so she now does it the cash way on the bus
|
|
|
|
Post by kommie123 on Oct 16, 2018 17:33:23 GMT 1
Card payments is definitely quicker than watching a disorganised idiot rooting for change. In fact it should be exact change only. That'll baffle Leeds brain dead morons!
|
|
SF07
Forum Member
Posts: 3,216
|
Post by SF07 on Oct 16, 2018 18:19:42 GMT 1
|
|
jc
Forum Member
Posts: 431
|
Post by jc on Oct 16, 2018 18:39:59 GMT 1
They always do that now. It won't help on the date of the change when people don't know how much money they need. And re. the contactless comment above - I actually don't know why First seem to think it'll change the world and speed the boarding times up. In reality, it doesn't. They've been specifically targeting students with it in York - on the 66 where a return is £2. Pre-contactless, most people had the exact change which was probably the fastest way to buy a ticket. But with contactless it actually takes much longer and it's slowing things down in real terms. Contactless would speed things up if it was implemented like the TfL system of tap and charge. Not sure how you can emulate smartcards with debit cards unless it's a flat fare, as in your board the bus, hold card to the reader, wait for the beep and move on. I suppose it might be possible to debit your account for the full route to the terminus when tap to board then credit your account for the distance you hadn't ridden when you tap to alight? |
|
|
|
Post by Arriva Wakefield on Oct 16, 2018 20:04:40 GMT 1
They always do that now. It won't help on the date of the change when people don't know how much money they need. And re. the contactless comment above - I actually don't know why First seem to think it'll change the world and speed the boarding times up. In reality, it doesn't. They've been specifically targeting students with it in York - on the 66 where a return is £2. Pre-contactless, most people had the exact change which was probably the fastest way to buy a ticket. But with contactless it actually takes much longer and it's slowing things down in real terms. Contactless would speed things up if it was implemented like the TfL system of tap and charge. Not sure how you can emulate smartcards with debit cards unless it's a flat fare, as in your board the bus, hold card to the reader, wait for the beep and move on. I suppose it might be possible to debit your account for the full route to the terminus when tap to board then credit your account for the distance you hadn't ridden when you tap to alight? Or adopt a system similar to Hong Kong (and probably other places) - pay to the terminus on every journey, so everyone making a round teip would pay the same - paying say £2 outbound & £1 return, whilst others would pay £1/£2, or £1.50 both ways, depending on where they boarded along the route. |
|
kendall17
Forum Member
Justice for the 96!
Posts: 4,514
|
Post by kendall17 on Oct 16, 2018 22:16:56 GMT 1
Not sure how you can emulate smartcards with debit cards unless it's a flat fare, as in your board the bus, hold card to the reader, wait for the beep and move on. I suppose it might be possible to debit your account for the full route to the terminus when tap to board then credit your account for the distance you hadn't ridden when you tap to alight? Or adopt a system similar to Hong Kong (and probably other places) - pay to the terminus on every journey, so everyone making a round teip would pay the same - paying say £2 outbound & £1 return, whilst others would pay £1/£2, or £1.50 both ways, depending on where they boarded along the route. When it costs £3 to get to the terminus, can you see the 4-5 shoppers being happy with that? |
|
jc
Forum Member
Posts: 431
|
Post by jc on Oct 16, 2018 23:37:30 GMT 1
So in HK, for a short hop to the terminus you might be spending 20% of the maximum fare out then 100% back, whereas for the same distance midway along the route you might be spending 60% both ways? Great so long as you're not doing a single journey outbound? There's a program about smartcards/IC cards in Japan on youtube if anyone's interested youtu.be/TRu7Fd-exfU |
|
|
|
Post by dwarfer1979 on Oct 17, 2018 8:49:04 GMT 1
They always do that now. It won't help on the date of the change when people don't know how much money they need. And re. the contactless comment above - I actually don't know why First seem to think it'll change the world and speed the boarding times up. In reality, it doesn't. They've been specifically targeting students with it in York - on the 66 where a return is £2. Pre-contactless, most people had the exact change which was probably the fastest way to buy a ticket. But with contactless it actually takes much longer and it's slowing things down in real terms. Contactless would speed things up if it was implemented like the TfL system of tap and charge. Not sure how you can emulate smartcards with debit cards unless it's a flat fare, as in your board the bus, hold card to the reader, wait for the beep and move on. I suppose it might be possible to debit your account for the full route to the terminus when tap to board then credit your account for the distance you hadn't ridden when you tap to alight? The technological issue is more to do with the 'tap-on, tap-off' concept than the payment medium, contactless on buses doesn't immediately debit your card when you board but records all the transactions on the machine and then downloads them later when the connection is better (generally when the bus returns to the depot though it could be done more often if you had remote connection points) as the connection is too patchy to reliably connect every time and too slow to be useable (most transactions would fail as the bus couldn't connect). This was one of the big hold-ups in the roll out of contactless on buses, the discussion on who was responsible for failed payments (people with insufficient money or fraud/stolen cards) given they weren't processed when fares were taken. With 'tap-on, tap-off' you need to have full bus stop level data in the ticket machines (most don't although some of the latest machines do require/prefer it) linked to vehicle tracking so the bus always know where it is (not as reliable as people think, some of our more rural depots have major tracking dead-spots) which is a major set-up/data maintenance headache. You then need a separate, clearly & strategically placed off scanner for customers to place their card against to mark them alighting for the fare to be calculated (this would then allow automatic period fare capping and the like as the fares are collated & worked out back at the office at the end of the day), there are some suggestions to use scanners around the door to remotely identify the alighting customer without them having to actively do anything (I don't think this would work with payment cards but generally the suggestions are around mobile account based payments). I don't think there is anyone yet doing anything similar with contactless on a normal UK level graduated fare structure, Trent have a system that does this on SmartCards linked to payment accounts with their Mango cards and this generally seems to work though alighting can be slowed by unprepared passengers searching for their card to scan off and when lots of people are scanning to alight (though prepared customer often scan before the bus actually stops as it is arriving which can mitigate this) though their machines don't do contactless in any way. In theory this could be done but it does require development of equipment, techniques and data holding that will mean it isn't as quick and easy as simply running a Contactless system (which in itself is more complicated than people think, at least for anyone other than the big multi-national operators, as there is only one machine supplier able/willing to assist with the back office for companies too small to have enough business to attract the banks to help). |
|
jc
Forum Member
Posts: 431
|
Post by jc on Oct 17, 2018 18:22:01 GMT 1
Not sure how you can emulate smartcards with debit cards unless it's a flat fare, as in your board the bus, hold card to the reader, wait for the beep and move on. I suppose it might be possible to debit your account for the full route to the terminus when tap to board then credit your account for the distance you hadn't ridden when you tap to alight? The technological issue is more to do with the 'tap-on, tap-off' concept than the payment medium, contactless on buses doesn't immediately debit your card when you board but records all the transactions on the machine and then downloads them later when the connection is better (generally when the bus returns to the depot though it could be done more often if you had remote connection points) as the connection is too patchy to reliably connect every time and too slow to be useable (most transactions would fail as the bus couldn't connect). This was one of the big hold-ups in the roll out of contactless on buses, the discussion on who was responsible for failed payments (people with insufficient money or fraud/stolen cards) given they weren't processed when fares were taken. With 'tap-on, tap-off' you need to have full bus stop level data in the ticket machines (most don't although some of the latest machines do require/prefer it) linked to vehicle tracking so the bus always know where it is (not as reliable as people think, some of our more rural depots have major tracking dead-spots) which is a major set-up/data maintenance headache. You then need a separate, clearly & strategically placed off scanner for customers to place their card against to mark them alighting for the fare to be calculated (this would then allow automatic period fare capping and the like as the fares are collated & worked out back at the office at the end of the day), there are some suggestions to use scanners around the door to remotely identify the alighting customer without them having to actively do anything (I don't think this would work with payment cards but generally the suggestions are around mobile account based payments). I don't think there is anyone yet doing anything similar with contactless on a normal UK level graduated fare structure, Trent have a system that does this on SmartCards linked to payment accounts with their Mango cards and this generally seems to work though alighting can be slowed by unprepared passengers searching for their card to scan off and when lots of people are scanning to alight (though prepared customer often scan before the bus actually stops as it is arriving which can mitigate this) though their machines don't do contactless in any way. In theory this could be done but it does require development of equipment, techniques and data holding that will mean it isn't as quick and easy as simply running a Contactless system (which in itself is more complicated than people think, at least for anyone other than the big multi-national operators, as there is only one machine supplier able/willing to assist with the back office for companies too small to have enough business to attract the banks to help). I'm a little confused about fare stages and tracking. I thought the situation currently was that drivers select the next fare stage as they leave a stop in order to sell you the right ticket, so if the fares are calculated later could you not see that the same card was swiped once at the station, again in Strensall and pair them up? |
|
|
|
Post by dwarfer1979 on Oct 18, 2018 8:41:32 GMT 1
With 'tap-on, tap-off' you need to have full bus stop level data in the ticket machines (most don't although some of the latest machines do require/prefer it) linked to vehicle tracking so the bus always know where it is (not as reliable as people think, some of our more rural depots have major tracking dead-spots) which is a major set-up/data maintenance headache. You then need a separate, clearly & strategically placed off scanner for customers to place their card against to mark them alighting for the fare to be calculated (this would then allow automatic period fare capping and the like as the fares are collated & worked out back at the office at the end of the day), there are some suggestions to use scanners around the door to remotely identify the alighting customer without them having to actively do anything (I don't think this would work with payment cards but generally the suggestions are around mobile account based payments). I don't think there is anyone yet doing anything similar with contactless on a normal UK level graduated fare structure, Trent have a system that does this on SmartCards linked to payment accounts with their Mango cards and this generally seems to work though alighting can be slowed by unprepared passengers searching for their card to scan off and when lots of people are scanning to alight (though prepared customer often scan before the bus actually stops as it is arriving which can mitigate this) though their machines don't do contactless in any way. In theory this could be done but it does require development of equipment, techniques and data holding that will mean it isn't as quick and easy as simply running a Contactless system (which in itself is more complicated than people think, at least for anyone other than the big multi-national operators, as there is only one machine supplier able/willing to assist with the back office for companies too small to have enough business to attract the banks to help). I'm a little confused about fare stages and tracking. I thought the situation currently was that drivers select the next fare stage as they leave a stop in order to sell you the right ticket, so if the fares are calculated later could you not see that the same card was swiped once at the station, again in Strensall and pair them up? Currently most machines will be manually advanced by the driver however if you relied on manual advancement then you would rarely charge the right fare (normally it would be good for the customer who would be constantly undercharged but not good for the operator), drivers have a busy time driving buses and they generally only manually advance the ticket machine when they have to when someone is boarding and paying a cash fare. Since most services have consistent flows with people boarding along one section, then alighting in another section (as it reaches the city centre for instance) then there is a lot of scope for errors, even the most conscientious drivers will be a little slack here as paying attention to the driving is more important than advancing the machine as you pass stops (and since passengers could touch off just before arriving at the stop you couldn't rely on the drivers manually advancing when they see someone alighting as they may have already touched off). To ensure the accuracy of your charging you would need to set up automatic stage advancement which requires a connection to tracking systems and detailed data set-up so the system knows where each stop is and which stage it sits in. |
|
|
|
Post by the110 on Oct 18, 2018 14:04:00 GMT 1
Arriva’s ticket machine automatically moves the fare stage on drivers don’t have to manually move it unless there is a problem with the GPS.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 1:44:37 GMT 1
Arriva’s ticket machine automatically moves the fare stage on drivers don’t have to manually move it unless there is a problem with the GPS. So does Ticketer and Vix |
|
|
|
Post by dennisthemenace504 on Oct 19, 2018 7:18:38 GMT 1
Arriva’s ticket machine automatically moves the fare stage on drivers don’t have to manually move it unless there is a problem with the GPS. Since the movement to GPS enabled ticket machines, unless there's a problem with the signal, or the machine moves it at the wrong point, the driver won't need to move it manually. |
|
|
|
Post by dwarfer1979 on Oct 19, 2018 8:00:05 GMT 1
Arriva’s ticket machine automatically moves the fare stage on drivers don’t have to manually move it unless there is a problem with the GPS. So does Ticketer and Vix Depends on the model, specification & operator set-up. On Ticketer it appears to be a default to be automatically advance, which can bring it's own problems on data set-up (& they are rapidly becoming the national standard because they offer Contactless integration whereas the others appear to offer a machine that will read a Contactless card but not the back office processing which is left to the operator to source separately), but on VIX it will depend on the model & operator option selected (my employers run VIX and whilst they are GPS fitted they don't have automatic advancement) so you can't tell by the machine fitted exactly how each operators has decided to set-up. |
|
77syk7
Forum Member
Posts: 639
|
Post by 77syk7 on Oct 19, 2018 16:42:00 GMT 1
I am somewhat confused at times when different depots within the West Yorkshire First Group have completely different operating structures.
A quick glance at the new adult single fares from this Sunday see Huddersfield's £2.20 adult fare being reduced to £2.00 - very good, I thought. Then a little further down, you see the Halifax fares when the £2.20 fare is increased by 10p to £2.30! This is the same company with a title 'First in Halifax, Calder Valley and Huddersfield'.
Anybody care to enlighten me?
|
|
|
|
Post by neukit on Oct 19, 2018 18:46:18 GMT 1
I am somewhat confused at times when different depots within the West Yorkshire First Group have completely different operating structures. A quick glance at the new adult single fares from this Sunday see Huddersfield's £2.20 adult fare being reduced to £2.00 - very good, I thought. Then a little further down, you see the Halifax fares when the £2.20 fare is increased by 10p to £2.30! This is the same company with a title 'First in Halifax, Calder Valley and Huddersfield'. Anybody care to enlighten me? I suspect they have more competition issues in Huddersfield, compared with Halifax? |
|
|
|
Post by Arriva Wakefield on Oct 20, 2018 17:51:49 GMT 1
Depends on the model, specification & operator set-up. On Ticketer it appears to be a default to be automatically advance, which can bring it's own problems on data set-up (& they are rapidly becoming the national standard because they offer Contactless integration whereas the others appear to offer a machine that will read a Contactless card but not the back office processing which is left to the operator to source separately), but on VIX it will depend on the model & operator option selected (my employers run VIX and whilst they are GPS fitted they don't have automatic advancement) so you can't tell by the machine fitted exactly how each operators has decided to set-up. Believe that Wayfarer & VIX have to manually copy and paste the stop GPS data into the faretable to set it up, whereas Ticketer can interprit the NAPTAN stop list and automatically use that to set the GPS locations up. Hence why the stop at York Stonebow is still ‘out’ on its location as NAPTAN still reference the ‘temporary’ stop from 2016/2017 |
|
