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Post by rwilkes on Mar 10, 2018 11:44:01 GMT 1
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SF07
Forum Member
Posts: 3,216
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Post by SF07 on Mar 10, 2018 13:39:42 GMT 1
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Post by stevieinselby on Mar 10, 2018 18:12:50 GMT 1
Great map, but missing the 29 and 923 - any others left off? (apart from town buses, obviously)
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Post by SCH117X on Mar 10, 2018 19:39:09 GMT 1
21 shown but does not appear to be listed. Extn of 31X from Kirkbymoorside not shown (presumably because only residents of Kirbymoorside can use it)
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Post by chas on Mar 10, 2018 20:54:16 GMT 1
The 70 has been dropped although metro say it will still run on Sundays. |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 10, 2018 22:06:35 GMT 1
One thing that map does show, is that they should extend the 465 to Hebden Bridge. They would get more leisure travellers going to Hebden Bridge as well.
To make more connections, It’s a shame the 62 to Harrogate didn’t take off, nor the bus from Harrogate to York, or that they lost the 280/X80 to Preston Bus
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Post by Burnside on Mar 10, 2018 22:10:21 GMT 1
Funny how it shows the 962 and 967, but nothing about the 965 despite how much they were trumpeting that they'd taken it on.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 10, 2018 22:47:49 GMT 1
Funny how it shows the 962 and 967, but nothing about the 965 despite how much they were trumpeting that they'd taken it on. It only shows inter urban links, not town services. Plus it’s worth remembering it isn’t an official publication that was meant for public use. |
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Post by neukit on Mar 10, 2018 23:06:14 GMT 1
One thing that map does show, is that they should extend the 465 to Hebden Bridge. They would get more leisure travellers going to Hebden Bridge as well. To make more connections, It’s a shame the 62 to Harrogate didn’t take off, nor the bus from Harrogate to York, or that they lost the 280/X80 to Preston Bus The 280/X80 wasn't lost. It was registered commercially by Preston Bus, when LCC cancelled all their contracted services in 2016. |
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Post by SCH117X on Mar 10, 2018 23:20:57 GMT 1
To make more connections, It’s a shame the 62 to Harrogate didn’t take off, nor the bus from Harrogate to York The X54 was well used by concessionary holders but NYCCs contribution failed to cover costs, Connexions also tried it with their lower costs and gave up. Earlier there had been a X50 which extended west to Skipton via Otley but ended up being primarily the western end that was operated and it was axed to provide the vehicles needed to increase the 36 from half hourly to 20 minutes way before the Geminis where dreamt of. |
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Post by ianigsy on Mar 12, 2018 18:41:46 GMT 1
One thing that map does show, is that they should extend the 465 to Hebden Bridge. They would get more leisure travellers going to Hebden Bridge as well. To make more connections, It’s a shame the 62 to Harrogate didn’t take off, nor the bus from Harrogate to York, or that they lost the 280/X80 to Preston Bus I did hear one account of the 62/X52 battle which suggested that senior pass holders tended to use the X52 because it ran slightly earlier but paying passengers preferred the 62 because a K-Day at the time was about a third less than a return on the X52. The 62 to Harrogate was badly served at Otley bus station because there was usually a 965 on the stand so it often had to pick up and drop off from the traffic island- I certainly missed it once that way and made a habit of picking it up at Cross Green. |
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Post by SCH117X on Mar 12, 2018 18:48:34 GMT 1
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Post by ajw11239 on Mar 12, 2018 23:49:53 GMT 1
One thing that map does show, is that they should extend the 465 to Hebden Bridge. They would get more leisure travellers going to Hebden Bridge as well. To make more connections, It’s a shame the 62 to Harrogate didn’t take off, nor the bus from Harrogate to York, or that they lost the 280/X80 to Preston Bus It was a shame when the 62 was cancelled. Really nice route too but admittedly when I used it there on about five separate occasions there was never more than 3-4 people on it. I used to quite like it when doing Daytripper days - the map does highlight a missing link there. And re. the 62/X52 - research into buses for a long time has shown that Concessionary passengers will just go for the first bus they see because they don't really care which service it is. You can see it in York on Tadcaster Road, served by the 4, 12, 13, Coastliner and a handful of less-frequent routes. Pensioners will just go for the first one to turn up but fare payers tend to wait for the First services since they're frequent and have more connections on other services. And it (sort of) works that way too - the Coastliner isn't really designed for passengers making short journeys like that (would slow it down). A York-Harrogate bus I've never really understood why there isn't a regular, popular one. The trains are usually fairly busy between York and Harrogate and I'd take a trip on a bus there any day over the bloody pacers. Some sort of express service could have a chance... |
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Post by deerfold on Mar 13, 2018 0:00:44 GMT 1
One thing that map does show, is that they should extend the 465 to Hebden Bridge. They would get more leisure travellers going to Hebden Bridge as well. To make more connections, It’s a shame the 62 to Harrogate didn’t take off, nor the bus from Harrogate to York, or that they lost the 280/X80 to Preston Bus It was a shame when the 62 was cancelled. Really nice route too but admittedly when I used it there on about five separate occasions there was never more than 3-4 people on it. I used to quite like it when doing Daytripper days - the map does highlight a missing link there. I do miss that link. Unfortunately we've ended up with a worse service to Harrogate - it used to be possible for me to get to Harrogate with a change of about 10 minutes at Ilkley every other hour. Then directly, but with all the messing about changing times, the (now) hourly Ilkley to Harrogate service leaves just before the 62 arrives, making it quicker to travel by rail via Leeds (and not much different costwise). And re. the 62/X52 - research into buses for a long time has shown that Concessionary passengers will just go for the first bus they see because they don't really care which service it is. You can see it in York on Tadcaster Road, served by the 4, 12, 13, Coastliner and a handful of less-frequent routes. Pensioners will just go for the first one to turn up but fare payers tend to wait for the First services since they're frequent and have more connections on other services. And it (sort of) works that way too - the Coastliner isn't really designed for passengers making short journeys like that (would slow it down). A York-Harrogate bus I've never really understood why there isn't a regular, popular one. The trains are usually fairly busy between York and Harrogate and I'd take a trip on a bus there any day over the bloody pacers. Some sort of express service could have a chance... As mentioned above, Harrogate and District started an X54 to York, running every 2 hours. It was very popular and increased to hourly. However most of the passengers were concessionary and with even a full load, the reimbursement did not cover the fuel and driver costs. NYCC did subsidise a rather less frequent service for a while after this bus was withdrawn. |
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Post by stevieinselby on Mar 13, 2018 0:27:57 GMT 1
I do miss that link. Unfortunately we've ended up with a worse service to Harrogate - it used to be possible for me to get to Harrogate with a change of about 10 minutes at Ilkley every other hour. Then directly, but with all the messing about changing times, the (now) hourly Ilkley to Harrogate service leaves just before the 62 arrives, making it quicker to travel by rail via Leeds (and not much different costwise). It has always seemed a shame that connections between the X52 and X84 are so poor as well. I do fairly frequently get asked about journeys between Harrogate and Skipton, and with no direct service any more it would be nice to be able to recommend a change at Ilkley or Otley, but with a 40 minute wait in one direction and a 55 minute wait in the other direction, all I can do is advise people that the train via Leeds is a better bet. As mentioned above, Harrogate and District started an X54 to York, running every 2 hours. It was very popular and increased to hourly. However most of the passengers were concessionary and with even a full load, the reimbursement did not cover the fuel and driver costs. NYCC did subsidise a rather less frequent service for a while after this bus was withdrawn. NYCC didn't subsidise the X54. Connexions tried running it commercially, hoping that their lower operating costs would allow them to make it work where Blazefield (as was) couldn't, but that didn't work out. But there is now a 2-hourly service between York and Harrogate, on the Connexions X70/412 via Wetherby, which is fully commercial (and the same route that Blazefield used to use). The problem with the A59 route is that it doesn't serve anywhere of note that the train doesn't, so there is very limited scope for making the money on intermediate passengers, but it is considerably slower than the train (and not that much cheaper) so it has little appeal to fare-paying passengers, meaning that the only people using it are travelling on free passes. And it's almost impossible to make money that way. Whereas the route via Wetherby picks up a lot more intermediate passengers, because it is the only transport service for those journeys, and so it can offset the lack of end-to-end fare-paying passengers. |
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Post by ajw11239 on Mar 13, 2018 14:47:34 GMT 1
Perhaps some sort of Cityzap would work between York-Harrogate?
Mind you, I think the Cityzap has the same problem - I use it a couple of times per week and nearly all the passengers are Concessionary pass holders. The service is very quiet indeed in the morning peak because they can't use it that early. It does get some fare payers down Tadcaster Rd / York College though. Only problem I find with it is the reliability is quite poor. The drivers do their best but the service is put on an extremely tight timetable where it has sixty minutes to get from York Stonebow, across the city, out to Leeds, empty and fill with passengers and then leave on time. When there are a lot of passengers, roadworks in York and the ridiculous speed restriction on the A64 at the moment it's damn near impossible and since it's gone back to using the Stonebow after its Lendal Bridge diversion I've never had an afternoon / early evening service leave Leeds on time.
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Post by davopazza on Mar 13, 2018 18:13:45 GMT 1
I do miss that link. Unfortunately we've ended up with a worse service to Harrogate - it used to be possible for me to get to Harrogate with a change of about 10 minutes at Ilkley every other hour. Then directly, but with all the messing about changing times, the (now) hourly Ilkley to Harrogate service leaves just before the 62 arrives, making it quicker to travel by rail via Leeds (and not much different costwise). It has always seemed a shame that connections between the X52 and X84 are so poor as well. I do fairly frequently get asked about journeys between Harrogate and Skipton, and with no direct service any more it would be nice to be able to recommend a change at Ilkley or Otley, but with a 40 minute wait in one direction and a 55 minute wait in the other direction, all I can do is advise people that the train via Leeds is a better bet. As mentioned above, Harrogate and District started an X54 to York, running every 2 hours. It was very popular and increased to hourly. However most of the passengers were concessionary and with even a full load, the reimbursement did not cover the fuel and driver costs. NYCC did subsidise a rather less frequent service for a while after this bus was withdrawn. NYCC didn't subsidise the X54. Connexions tried running it commercially, hoping that their lower operating costs would allow them to make it work where Blazefield (as was) couldn't, but that didn't work out. But there is now a 2-hourly service between York and Harrogate, on the Connexions X70/412 via Wetherby, which is fully commercial (and the same route that Blazefield used to use). The problem with the A59 route is that it doesn't serve anywhere of note that the train doesn't, so there is very limited scope for making the money on intermediate passengers, but it is considerably slower than the train (and not that much cheaper) so it has little appeal to fare-paying passengers, meaning that the only people using it are travelling on free passes. And it's almost impossible to make money that way. Whereas the route via Wetherby picks up a lot more intermediate passengers, because it is the only transport service for those journeys, and so it can offset the lack of end-to-end fare-paying passengers. I’ve wondered if connexions could extend the X53 to Skipton to create a, sort of, direct link. Hasn’t there been a direct service in the past which was withdrawn? |
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Post by SCH117X on Mar 13, 2018 18:24:31 GMT 1
It has always seemed a shame that connections between the X52 and X84 are so poor as well. I do fairly frequently get asked about journeys between Harrogate and Skipton, and with no direct service any more it would be nice to be able to recommend a change at Ilkley or Otley, but with a 40 minute wait in one direction and a 55 minute wait in the other direction, all I can do is advise people that the train via Leeds is a better bet. I suspect that if the X84 was worked by Transdev then Connexions would be running the X52 through to Skipton. Congestion in York was IIRC the reason the original X50 "Ebor Link" ended up largely being a Harrogate-Ilkley-Skipton service. Then Knaresborough-Harrogate is equally bad in either direction at differing times of day. |
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Post by stevieinselby on Mar 13, 2018 22:27:31 GMT 1
I’ve wondered if connexions could extend the X53 to Skipton to create a, sort of, direct link. Hasn’t there been a direct service in the past which was withdrawn? Harrogate & District ran the X59 between Harrogate and Skipton along the A59 from 2000 until 2013. Initially, it ran 5 journeys each way, but in the last few years it was reduced to just 2 journeys. It took 45 minutes end-to-end (a little longer when it ran via Penny Pot and Oakdale), but was little used – I always thought it was a wasted opportunity that it didn't run up to Bolton Abbey, but there you go. Running via Ilkley and Otley would give an end-to-end journey time of approaching 1h30. You could keep that down a little by missing Draughton, and so run an hourly service with three vehicles, requiring only one additional bus. But ... is it worth it? Unlikely. First already run an hourly service between Skipton, Ilkley and Otley on the X84, and I can't see there being a need for more than an hourly service. So you're relying on attracting enough end-to-end passengers who are willing to spend 1h30 on the bus and/or abstracting passengers from the X84. Don't get me wrong ... it would be great to see the X52 running through to Skipton. If First were to reduce or cancel the X84 beyond Ilkley then extending the X52 would look to be a no-brainer. But with the X84 in full swing, I can't see it working out. |
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Post by SCH117X on Mar 13, 2018 22:53:32 GMT 1
Harrogate & District ran the X59 between Harrogate and Skipton along the A59 from 2000 until 2013. Initially, it ran 5 journeys each way, but in the last few years it was reduced to just 2 journeys. It took 45 minutes end-to-end (a little longer when it ran via Penny Pot and Oakdale), but was little used Like the X54 the lack of adequate funding of concessionary holders was the main issue. It certainly was well used to the point of attracting adverse publicity when NYCC merged it in with a local service in Harrogate (the 112 to the Army College) and local passengers found the bus was standing room only. The reduction to just two journeys was Transdevs attempt to run the service commercially after NYCC dropped its funding while Connexions eventually provided a replacement local service, the X12, that partly covers the area the 112 had served. |
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Post by Burnside on Mar 14, 2018 0:06:17 GMT 1
As said above, if the X84 didn't run, then extending the X52 would be a good idea.
Simple fact is, there probably isn't the custom to support a second hourly service between Ilkley and Skipton.
First don't run past 7ish pm (earlier toward Skipton) and there's only a Sunday service thanks to DalesBus. Add to that, any extension of the X52 would require additional resources, making it harder to be commercially viable.
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Post by ianigsy on Mar 15, 2018 20:50:46 GMT 1
I do wonder what's in it for First running the X84 to Skipton sometimes- I guess the main flows are students to Craven College and a steady flow of shoppers from Addingham and Draughton, but it's a horrendously difficult route to operate from the Leeds end alone. As a daily X84 user between Otley and Leeds, I can't help wondering whether it wouldn't be better all round to let Transdev run Ilkley to Skipton and have the bus that currently does that leg increasing frequency on the Ilkley to Leeds section instead.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 15, 2018 21:27:46 GMT 1
It must be popular or it would have been axed when other services in the wharfedale area were axed years ago. I bet it’s popular with concessions and people from North Leeds wanting a day out in Skipton
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Post by biroguy on Mar 16, 2018 8:03:55 GMT 1
I notice that the 70/71 are to become "simply 7", as we already have the "super 7" corridor run by First in Leeds then passengers could become confused. Metro should get their act together and prevent operators running duplicate numbers in the same city.
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Post by gooderson1 on Mar 16, 2018 9:03:56 GMT 1
Do both route 7's follow the same routing. If so this may cause some confusion but if, as I expect, both routes are operated on a commercial basis(rather than under contract to Metro) then there is little, if anything, Metro can do to make an operator change the route number.
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