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Post by timelesstable on Apr 1, 2016 7:03:36 GMT 1
Leeds region 'lags behind European cities in transport' www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-35932652The Leeds region has "lagged behind" other European cities in public transport, according to the city's former council leader. Councillor Keith Wakefield, chair of the area's transport committee, said it needed "to catch up with the big European cities". A study of suitable transport systems has been commissioned. Heavy and light rail, tram-train and buses and trolleybuses are among the modes being considered. Mr Wakefield said: "If you want to boost the economy, move people to jobs, stop social isolation and improve air quality you need an integrated transport system." Links to Huddersfield, Halifax, Bradford and Wakefield and other areas had to be improved, he added. A Leeds "supertram" network was abandoned in 2005 when £40m had been spent on initial work and an initial cost estimate of half a billion pounds had doubled. The idea was replaced in 2007 by a trolleybus scheme later approved with a £250m budget. However, it was delayed after a public inquiry and has not yet had approval. The scheme was originally scheduled to begin operating in 2020. |
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Post by Kenton Schweppes on May 19, 2016 23:15:02 GMT 1
He's right, so here we have the Leeds City region with no rapid transit system, a international airport with no railway station, a major shopping centre with no railway station despite being next to a railway line, towns with no railway stations with trains sailing straight through the town, towns with former connections with no chance of them ever being brought back Wetherby, Otley, Spen Valley, lines with diabolical service levels, a bus market dominated by one provider who frankly need running out of West Yorkshire and finally a PTE that is ineffectual.
If you compare Leeds with Manchester, it's light years ahead in public transport. Who is to blame for the regions inertia on public transport?
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Post by rwilkes on May 20, 2016 9:38:40 GMT 1
It is quite simply Metro and the MDCs to blame
If they had gone for a quality partnership years ago we would have good bus services
Either First would have improved or another company would have moved is as the bus lanes would have made buses much more profitable.
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on May 20, 2016 15:41:25 GMT 1
He's right, so here we have the Leeds City region with no rapid transit system, a international airport with no railway station, a major shopping centre with no railway station despite being next to a railway line, towns with no railway stations with trains sailing straight through the town, towns with former connections with no chance of them ever being brought back Wetherby, Otley, Spen Valley, lines with diabolical service levels, a bus market dominated by one provider who frankly need running out of West Yorkshire and finally a PTE that is ineffectual. If you compare Leeds with Manchester, it's light years ahead in public transport. Who is to blame for the regions inertia on public transport? And a rail system that's had plenty of station and line reopenings over the past 30 years thanks to Metro! |
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Post by Kenton Schweppes on May 20, 2016 23:33:17 GMT 1
He's right, so here we have the Leeds City region with no rapid transit system, a international airport with no railway station, a major shopping centre with no railway station despite being next to a railway line, towns with no railway stations with trains sailing straight through the town, towns with former connections with no chance of them ever being brought back Wetherby, Otley, Spen Valley, lines with diabolical service levels, a bus market dominated by one provider who frankly need running out of West Yorkshire and finally a PTE that is ineffectual. If you compare Leeds with Manchester, it's light years ahead in public transport. Who is to blame for the regions inertia on public transport? And a rail system that's had plenty of station and line reopenings over the past 30 years thanks to Metro! Granted, they made a rash of station openings in the 80's with cheap construction but they have failed to capitalise on that and openings have been slow, although granted they have given us Brighouse, Glasshoughton, Apperley Bridge, Kirkstall Forge and the soon to be opening Low Moor in the last 15 years. They seem unable to tackle the Airport issue successfully though. |
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Post by resolution on May 21, 2016 16:22:54 GMT 1
It is quite simply Metro and the MDCs to blame If they had gone for a quality partnership years ago we would have good bus services Either First would have improved or another company would have moved is as the bus lanes would have made buses much more profitable. Nonsense! If a quality bus partnership (a classic oxymoron!) were the solution why has Manchester fared so much better than West Yorkshire without ever considering one? The problem probably has its origins far longer ago in a city which was proud to call itself 'Motorway City of the Seventies', didn't wake up to the idea of supporting, rather than suppressing, public transport on the streets until far too late and has ended up with a populace which has forgotten what decent public transport could be like. (Thank you Alderman Rafferty, this is your legacy!) Faced with a bus regulatory policy which would disgrace a third-world country and a city which had been force-fed a car-borne mentality Metro logically concentrated on the railways of West Yorkshire for its first 25 years and the results weren't at all bad - but one of the results of rail privatisation has been to push the cost of station re-opening through the roof. PTEs generally (not just in West Yorkshire) have been discouraged from showing any initiative by central government's progressive erosion of their powers since 1986. In the meantime national bus policy has given such power to private bus companies that they are able to promote and protect their own interests above the wider transport interests of the area (an example being the way that they have undermined the metro in Tyne & Wear). One has to question whether Manchester and Sheffield would have got their tram systems had they lost another five years in the planning process; as it is they and Newcastle might have something on which to build, if the promised devolution really occurs in the next few years, where Leeds has nothing. |
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Post by rwilkes on May 21, 2016 21:18:55 GMT 1
Unless you assume trams mean more, Manchester does not have more. It has a huge bill for trams, and is even more committed to the stupidity of franchising than even Metro.
Trams have an important place, but getting the buses right first is the economic way to get trams. And getting buses right means bus priority and demand management. Anything else is pouring our money down the drain.
You do have apoint htat Leeds was too pro motorways and still is.
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Post by Kenton Schweppes on May 21, 2016 22:07:58 GMT 1
It is quite simply Metro and the MDCs to blame If they had gone for a quality partnership years ago we would have good bus services Either First would have improved or another company would have moved is as the bus lanes would have made buses much more profitable. Nonsense! If a quality bus partnership (a classic oxymoron!) were the solution why has Manchester fared so much better than West Yorkshire without ever considering one? The problem probably has its origins far longer ago in a city which was proud to call itself 'Motorway City of the Seventies', didn't wake up to the idea of supporting, rather than suppressing, public transport on the streets until far too late and has ended up with a populace which has forgotten what decent public transport could be like. (Thank you Alderman Rafferty, this is your legacy!) Faced with a bus regulatory policy which would disgrace a third-world country and a city which had been force-fed a car-borne mentality Metro logically concentrated on the railways of West Yorkshire for its first 25 years and the results weren't at all bad - but one of the results of rail privatisation has been to push the cost of station re-opening through the roof. PTEs generally (not just in West Yorkshire) have been discouraged from showing any initiative by central government's progressive erosion of their powers since 1986. In the meantime national bus policy has given such power to private bus companies that they are able to promote and protect their own interests above the wider transport interests of the area (an example being the way that they have undermined the metro in Tyne & Wear). One has to question whether Manchester and Sheffield would have got their tram systems had they lost another five years in the planning process; as it is they and Newcastle might have something on which to build, if the promised devolution really occurs in the next few years, where Leeds has nothing. Whereas you're not wrong with what you say, the issues need sorting and quick. I often wonder what goes on at Metro HQ on a daily basis as they even struggle to get the correct information on bus timetables at shelters let alone be responsible for West Yorkshires transport needs. Do they sit around scratching their arses all day with their pens? They really need to seize the nettle and properly address the major issues facing West Yorkshire and the Leeds City region. |
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Post by Kenton Schweppes on May 21, 2016 22:29:57 GMT 1
Unless you assume trams mean more, Manchester does not have more. It has a huge bill for trams, and is even more committed to the stupidity of franchising than even Metro. Trams have an important place, but getting the buses right first is the economic way to get trams. And getting buses right means bus priority and demand management. Anything else is pouring our money down the drain. You do have apoint htat Leeds was too pro motorways and still is. The Metrolink is self sufficient profit making service, it receives no subsidy, is that what you mean? Metro have never got to grips with First's total domination and their unwillingness to run the services other than for when it's convenient for them and not the passengers transport needs. They are unable to get high quality high frequency services to run to any kind of timetable, see 372 and 503 in Huddersfield as examples of this. They are unwilling to develop high frequency high quality limited stop intercity services that are needed and their evening services are absolutely awful, their customer service is totally dire too. In fact the whole bus network is an utter shambles with too many companies with too much self interest and no appetite from Metro to sort it, if there was, we'd have had Quality Contracts by now but they have totally bottled it. |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on May 21, 2016 23:07:31 GMT 1
I would guess that the vast majority of the reasons why buses are branded as poor is traffic congestion, unless you build timetables with running times and layovers matching the longest possible delay, there isn't much that can be done by the operator. Then people complain on Twitter that the driver has got out to have a smoke delaying them,moot understanding they are early at a timing point.
The reason why Metro isn't reopening railway stations all over the place, reinstating closed lines, and building bus lanes on every road, is generally due to funding.
When the to came to Supertram, Leeds was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I doubt Sheffield would have got theirs a few years later, and it's noticable that theirs is still exactly the same as it was when built with an extensions seemingly having no timescale for completion.
We do have modern bus stations widespread all over the county, better than many, we also have the yournextbus real time system, including screens in most major bus shelters, we take this for granted but most areas don't have this. Also some PTEs don't produce their own timetables. There are apparently 14000 bus stops in WY so it's a bit unfair to say that they struggle to display timetables at any bus stop. There has been funding cuts in those public facing departments as per all 'council' departments.
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Post by Kenton Schweppes on May 22, 2016 0:19:59 GMT 1
I would guess that the vast majority of the reasons why buses are branded as poor is traffic congestion, unless you build timetables with running times and layovers matching the longest possible delay, there isn't much that can be done by the operator. Then people complain on Twitter that the driver has got out to have a smoke delaying them,moot understanding they are early at a timing point. The reason why Metro isn't reopening railway stations all over the place, reinstating closed lines, and building bus lanes on every road, is generally due to funding. When the to came to Supertram, Leeds was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I doubt Sheffield would have got theirs a few years later, and it's noticable that theirs is still exactly the same as it was when built with an extensions seemingly having no timescale for completion. We do have modern bus stations widespread all over the county, better than many, we also have the yournextbus real time system, including screens in most major bus shelters, we take this for granted but most areas don't have this. Also some PTEs don't produce their own timetables. There are apparently 14000 bus stops in WY so it's a bit unfair to say that they struggle to display timetables at any bus stop. There has been funding cuts in those public facing departments as per all 'council' departments. Yeah, ok, it is all down to funding and money but that doesn't mean the issues don't need addressing, dealing with and creating an all round coherent, integrated, high quality public transport network for a large urban conurbation that West Yorks is. On the traffic issue regarding the buses, yeah, that is a big issue but its also an issue of services being busy and ill thought out. Take for example, the 503 service Huddersfield to Halifax service, currently it runs every 10 minutes during the day, which in essence makes it a good service to the naked eye. In reality, its bloody awful, its besieged by traffic congestion issues, lateness, heavy loadings and the worse one for me....the route through Elland and West Vale. This service has a large number of passengers who travel end to end, why should they sit on a bus, stuck in traffic, going through Elland and West Vale (my last 2 journeys on this service took 1 hour 45 and 1 hour) just because First can't be arsed or don't have the foresight at peak times to run an express service straight between the two towns? If I'm going end to end I don't want to be going through Elland and West Vale at rush hour with the bus stopping at every stop!!! I want to get to Huddersfield or visa versa asap. Its this kind of nonesense that keeps people in their cars. My issue with the timetables is that the information at the stops on the timetables is incorrect. The stop outside Sainsburys at Shore Head in Huddersfield displays the night time service for the 341 as 'no service' which there is, on Saturday there is no service too but there is and Sunday no service but there is. It's poor and they need to get things right. I often wonder, do Metro ever go out in the field to see what is happening in reality? In response to the modern bus stations and the yournextbus technology, that should be the norm, I wouldn't expect anything less with todays technology. That's what makes public transport attractive to car users, its called progress, or what should be making it attractive. You make it sound like they are doing us a favour, any business that doesn't give its customers what it wants generally tends to wither and customers drift off. |
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Steve Macz403
Forum Member
Waits at the bus stop for his bus, 2 days later bus turns up :D
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Post by Steve Macz403 on May 22, 2016 8:53:47 GMT 1
Leeds lags behind, compared to other cities, that have Nightbuses. 98% of Leeds has no nightbus. I was surprised to see the new night 36 operate at 3am. someone got off the bus on Chapeltown road  And saw people on the late night 1 bus journeys. This was when I came out the clubs. Taxi drivers can make tons of profit, can be something like £8 on a night to get to inner suburbs like Harehills, Armley, Headingley and Beeston depends how greedy your driver is. Worse if you live off the Ring Road and even worse than that if it's the outer Leeds boroughs too, like the Pudseys and Garforths could be up to £20 |
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Post by stevieinselby on May 22, 2016 14:05:43 GMT 1
We do have modern bus stations widespread all over the county, better than many, we also have the yournextbus real time system, including screens in most major bus shelters, we take this for granted but most areas don't have this. Also some PTEs don't produce their own timetables. There are apparently 14000 bus stops in WY so it's a bit unfair to say that they struggle to display timetables at any bus stop. There has been funding cuts in those public facing departments as per all 'council' departments. Even the rural areas and small towns of West Yorkshire have bus services that would leave other people breathless with amazement. That there are not only extensive and frequent networks around Hebden Bridge, Homfirth and Todmorden, but that many of these have good evening and Sunday services as well, is a testament to where Metro is doing a good job in ensuring services are maintained. Similar routes in North Yorkshire or Lancashire would be lucky to still be running during the daytime! |
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Post by rwilkes on May 23, 2016 9:29:54 GMT 1
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Post by biroguy on May 23, 2016 14:29:19 GMT 1
Annoying as it is that Leeds is still trying to get a rapid transit scheme off the ground I find this article rather lacking in fact. As ever people attack NGT by saying everything is fine now which it most certainly is not, the present bus service falls away after 6pm. The service is slow and expensive. No mention of diesel pollution. The overhead wires argument is trotted out yet again, no issue with these in Manchester, Sheffield, Edinburgh or Nottingham. Fixed track infrastructure is seen as a benefit. |
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Post by rwilkes on May 23, 2016 16:28:42 GMT 1
" the present bus service falls away after
6pm. The service is slow and expensive. No mention of diesel pollution."
I agree the current situation is far from perfect, but it could be greatly improved at little cost with a quality partnership.
Both the Supertram and NGT were seriously flawed and unaffordable.
As for fixed links, we used to have trams in most of our cities and they were scrapped to make way for cars!
Bradfrd Trolleys should not have been scrapped, but htey were, and its too late to bring them back
No amount of public transport invenment will be of any benefit unless we accept that driving standards have to be improved and road space in cities has to be paid for with some kind of congestion charge.
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Post by tompb19 on May 24, 2016 13:52:05 GMT 1
On the traffic issue regarding the buses, yeah, that is a big issue but its also an issue of services being busy and ill thought out. Take for example, the 503 service Huddersfield to Halifax service, currently it runs every 10 minutes during the day, which in essence makes it a good service to the naked eye. In reality, its bloody awful, its besieged by traffic congestion issues, lateness, heavy loadings and the worse one for me....the route through Elland and West Vale. This service has a large number of passengers who travel end to end, why should they sit on a bus, stuck in traffic, going through Elland and West Vale (my last 2 journeys on this service took 1 hour 45 and 1 hour) just because First can't be arsed or don't have the foresight at peak times to run an express service straight between the two towns? If I'm going end to end I don't want to be going through Elland and West Vale at rush hour with the bus stopping at every stop!!! I want to get to Huddersfield or visa versa asap. Its this kind of nonesense that keeps people in their cars. If the 503 didn't go through Elland and West Vale, it will still be faced with the bottleneck at Salterhebble on the Calderdale Way. There are plans to upgrade the road from Salterhebble, through to the hospital - which could perhaps make an express Huddersfield - Halifax bus route feasible. Has there been an express route before? The road through West Vale annoys me greatly, it's very hard to predict the traffic congestion on this route. Currently trying to cycle as much as I can - it's quicker door to door from Luddendenfoot to Huddersfield than the bus is! (and about the same time once I've had a shower etc). There's one train an hour between the two towns, taking 25 minutes - I imagine a more frequent bus taking 30-35 mins would be attractive. |
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Post by deerfold on May 24, 2016 13:55:45 GMT 1
If the 503 didn't go through Elland and West Vale, it will still be faced with the bottleneck at Salterhebble on the Calderdale Way. There are plans to upgrade the road from Salterhebble, through to the hospital - which could perhaps make an express Huddersfield - Halifax bus route feasible. Has there been an express route before? The road through West Vale annoys me greatly, it's very hard to predict the traffic congestion on this route. Currently trying to cycle as much as I can - it's quicker door to door from Luddendenfoot to Huddersfield than the bus is! (and about the same time once I've had a shower etc). There's one train an hour between the two towns, taking 25 minutes - I imagine a more frequent bus taking 30-35 mins would be attractive. For many years there were buses on the current route every 15 minutes (502, 503, 504) with hourly buses continuing from Halifax to Keighley and Bradford via Thornton. There was also a bus every half hour on the X36 or X37 avoiding West Vale (at times this ran every 15 minutes in rush hour). |
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And saw people on the late night 1 bus journeys. This was when I came out the clubs. 