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Post by the110 on Aug 9, 2015 8:49:11 GMT 1
Over the years it's fair to say Arriva have had problems with Cawood bridge and the 42 route in general. This has been due to a number of issues flooding, bridge getting stuck open, the council cutting funding and more recently Utopia setting up. Now North Yorkshire county council have informed both Arriva and Utopia that from 5th October 2015 they will be removing the special dispensation these companies have to use the bridge due to the 7.5T weight limit. As I work for Arriva I can only comment on them and say this is probably going to be the final nail in the coffin for this route as we don't have any vehicles which are below this weight limit. Arriva have asked for a meeting with NYCC next week but the feeling is they won't change their mind and with such short notice Arriva need to register any changes or withdraw the route. Going to be interesting to see what happens over the coming weeks but it's fair to say everyone involved are disappointed.
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Post by stevieinselby on Aug 9, 2015 10:11:56 GMT 1
Given how busy the 42 is, on both sides of the bridge, this would be crazy. The 42 is well used by people travelling to York from the north of Selby as well as Wistow and Cawood – but I can't see many of those people being prepared to travel the long way round unless the bus runs literally non-stop to York from Flaxley Road (if via A19) or Cawood (if via A162/A64), setting down only at Designer Outlet and Fulford – that might just about keep it to an acceptable journey time, but even then it is likely to lead to a longer journey time for a lot of people. But then there will still be a need for buses to Naburn, Stillingfleet and Kelfield – a single bus just running that loop would struggle to maintain an hourly service, so it may well be reduced to a 90-minute frequency or it may be switched to a connection from Designer Outlet in order to keep it hourly. Either way it's a significant reduction in service.
At the moment, the weight limit on the bridge is signed as "No goods vehicles over 7.5t", so there isn't an exemption for any particular buses over 7.5t because the restriction doesn't apply to buses in the first place. (It used to be a general limit of 7.5T mgw except for exempted buses, but that is not what it is signed as now).
How small a bus would you need to use, to get under 7.5t mgw? Would the Mercedes 616s that Utopia use be allowed? I know their unladen weight is about 5.5t, but I suspect even that might be too much.
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Post by the110 on Aug 9, 2015 11:13:51 GMT 1
You are correct about the current weight limit signs and maybe I wasn't clear. The restriction is to be put back to what it used to be from 5th October to 7.5T with NO exceptions. Management are looking to see if there are any buses in the Arriva UK fleet small enough but then you have the problem of making it profitable because numbers.
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Post by stevieinselby on Aug 9, 2015 11:15:25 GMT 1
You are correct about the current weight limit signs and maybe I wasn't clear. The restriction is to be put back to what it used to be from 5th October to 7.5T with NO exceptions. Have they given any reason for this change? Is it just a pretext to continue their war on bus users, or is there any justification for it? |
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Post by the110 on Aug 9, 2015 11:20:10 GMT 1
NYCC are saying basically it's down to the cost of maintaining the bridge.
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Post by stevieinselby on Aug 9, 2015 12:26:21 GMT 1
I've now written to NYCC to ask how they will ensure that people who use the bus from Wistow and Cawood to get to York are not disadvantaged by this change. Let's see what they say!
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Post by the110 on Aug 9, 2015 15:57:28 GMT 1
Good the more people that complain the better. Hopefully they will reconsider because we are not only dealing with people that need the bus but also drivers jobs, Arriva and Utopia.
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Post by SCH117X on Aug 9, 2015 21:14:08 GMT 1
The obvious answer from Not Your Clever Council will be the 42 operated by themselves using 16 seat minibuses.
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Post by Jamie on Aug 9, 2015 21:32:58 GMT 1
With all the other proposed cuts are NYCC trying to get the "crap council award of the year?"
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Post by stevieinselby on Aug 9, 2015 22:04:29 GMT 1
The obvious answer from Not Your Clever Council will be the 42 operated by themselves using 16 seat minibuses. That's fine if they are going to run it every 30 minutes, and every 20 minutes at peak times (winter) increasing to every 15 minutes in the summer ... or at least have the peak time services supplemented by additional buses running to Naburn, Stillingfleet and Kelfield. The 35-seater buses used on the 42 regularly carry a standing load leaving York on the 1625 and 1730, particularly during the summer when the service is used extensively by people staying at Naburn Lock caravan park, and the morning peak approaching Designer Outlet and Fulford is often similarly busy. I don't know how well the service is used intrapeak, but given that minibuses don't allow standing passengers I would be surprised if 16-seater minibuses could cope on the current hourly frequency without leaving passengers behind at least weekly, if not daily. And that's without even considering the 422. I believe that Utopia do have a couple of minibuses that would be allowed over the bridge, and when I have seen these buses they do look as though they could mostly manage the passenger loads with minibuses. For me, the red lines on the 42 are: - Sufficient capacity to cope with typical passenger numbers
- Direct services to Designer Outlet and the centre of York in a comparable journey time to now
- Interavailability of tickets with the 415. From where I live in Selby, the 42 is much more convenient, but the 415 is adequate at times when the 42 isn't running (eg, evenings). I already have an annual season ticket that lasts through to June 2016, and I expect to be able to continue to have the choice of the two routes within that ticket (and continuing beyond the renewal date).
I'm not too bothered how they fulfil those, but that's the minimum requirement. |
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Post by stevieinselby on Aug 12, 2015 20:06:38 GMT 1
Not too long a wait for a response from NYCC, but not particularly helpful:
The swing bridge at Cawood has being operating with an environmental weight limit which allows the bridge to be used by bus services. However recent assessments of the bridge deck have led the authority to conclude that a 7.5 tonne weak bridge limit needs to be urgently enforced with no exemptions in order to maintain the structural integrity of the bridge. It is proposed the new restriction will be brought in during the autumn.
Service 42 is currently operated by Arriva using vehicles that exceed the 7.5 tonne limit and so will be affected by the change to restrictions. The County Council is working closely with the bus companies so that alternative arrangements can be found to maintain bus services to Cawood following the change to the restriction on the bridge.
Not a whole lot of reassurance that there will be satisfactory arrangements put in place at this stage...
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Post by stevieinselby on Aug 16, 2015 12:09:23 GMT 1
Here are a couple of thoughts.
Option 1, fit weigh stations either side if the bridge. Use slightly lighter buses like Solos or MPDs. Drive onto weigh station. Unload passengers starting with the fattest until under 7.5t. Drive across bridge while fat people walk across. Let them get back on on the other side, and drive on. Maintains the current level of service with no extra buses needed but probably poltircally unacceptable and discriminatory, and requires installation of weigh stations.
Option 2, divert 42 from Cawood via Ulleskelf, A162 and A64, and run a separate service between York and Kelfield. Would need at least one extra bus and slightly reduced frequencies - could do Kelfield every 75 minutes with one vehicle, not sure how long it would add going from Cawood via A64.
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Aug 16, 2015 12:55:02 GMT 1
Here are a couple of thoughts. Option 1, fit weigh stations either side if the bridge. Use slightly lighter buses like Solos or MPDs. Drive onto weigh station. Unload passengers starting with the fattest until under 7.5t. Drive across bridge while fat people walk across. Let them get back on on the other side, and drive on. Maintains the current level of service with no extra buses needed but probably poltircally unacceptable and discriminatory, and requires installation of weigh stations. Option 2, divert 42 from Cawood via Ulleskelf, A162 and A64, and run a separate service between York and Kelfield. Would need at least one extra bus and slightly reduced frequencies - could do Kelfield every 75 minutes with one vehicle, not sure how long it would add going from Cawood via A64. Option1 is straight out the window, as the limit refers to the MAXIMUM GROSS WEIGHT, so irrespective whether the bus is empty or loaded, the bus would still be classed as being fully loaded. |
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Matty
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Post by Matty on Aug 17, 2015 2:58:18 GMT 1
Our M720 Solos are 5.5tonne
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Post by stevieinselby on Aug 17, 2015 6:48:37 GMT 1
Our M720 Solos are 5.5tonne What's their mgw? I'm struggling to find that for any buses. A bus with 30 passengers on board could easily top over 2t for its load, so I would have thought even baby Solos must be rated for more than 7.5t. |
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Post by timelesstable on Aug 17, 2015 8:18:25 GMT 1
Our M720 Solos are 5.5tonne What's their mgw? I'm struggling to find that for any buses. A bus with 30 passengers on board could easily top over 2t for its load, so I would have thought even baby Solos must be rated for more than 7.5t. The VOSA rough calculation is 14 passengers per tonne (or should that be ton) Therefore a unladed 5.5t bus plus 30 passengers and driver tops the 7.5t limit could always do a SGi and take a few seats out................... |
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Post by timelesstable on Aug 17, 2015 8:23:55 GMT 1
Here are a couple of thoughts. Option 1, fit weigh stations either side if the bridge. Use slightly lighter buses like Solos or MPDs. Drive onto weigh station. Unload passengers starting with the fattest until under 7.5t. Drive across bridge while fat people walk across. Shouldn't fattest be replaced by heaviest and also include luggage and baggage, in which case DDA really would be an issue with added weight of wheelchairs and pushchairs.................... What happens when its raining, should those with an umbrella be asked first....................... |
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Post by stevieinselby on Aug 17, 2015 8:56:13 GMT 1
The VOSA rough calculation is 14 passengers per tonne (or should that be ton) Therefore a unladed 5.5t bus plus 30 passengers and driver tops the 7.5t limit could always do a SGi and take a few seats out................... But wouldn't that leave more room for standing passengers, so would potentially be even heavier? No, my suggestion for making people walk over the bridge was not in any way serious - or could it work if you had two connecting buses running up to the bridge? No, while Little White Bus have done that at Usha Gap during roadworks, I think that having it as a permanent arrangement on a main route would be so far off the scale it's out of sight - and that's before you even consider the chronic unreliability of any bus that runs through Fulford and the lack of anywhere to turn buses round. So it looks as though it's either going to be minibuses or running the long way round. Morning peak buses are often carrying 16-20 passengers over the bridge so capacity would be an issue for minibuses. Going via Ulleskelf might add 5 minutes if it ran express and didn't carry local passengers between York and A64, or 10 mins if you want it to call at Designer Outlet (which they probably would). Given the number of people who get off at D.O. or in Fulford, sending it up Taddy Road would not be popular. |
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Aug 17, 2015 13:37:22 GMT 1
The VOSA rough calculation is 14 passengers per tonne (or should that be ton) Therefore a unladed 5.5t bus plus 30 passengers and driver tops the 7.5t limit could always do a SGi and take a few seats out................... But wouldn't that leave more room for standing passengers, so would potentially be even heavier? No, my suggestion for making people walk over the bridge was not in any way serious - or could it work if you had two connecting buses running up to the bridge? No, while Little White Bus have done that at Usha Gap during roadworks, I think that having it as a permanent arrangement on a main route would be so far off the scale it's out of sight - and that's before you even consider the chronic unreliability of any bus that runs through Fulford and the lack of anywhere to turn buses round. So it looks as though it's either going to be minibuses or running the long way round. Morning peak buses are often carrying 16-20 passengers over the bridge so capacity would be an issue for minibuses. Going via Ulleskelf might add 5 minutes if it ran express and didn't carry local passengers between York and A64, or 10 mins if you want it to call at Designer Outlet (which they probably would). Given the number of people who get off at D.O. or in Fulford, sending it up Taddy Road would not be popular. Under Jaronda the service was split in 2 with passengers crossing the bridge on foot for a period in the late 80s (?) when the bridge was having work done on it, and the buses communicated between themselves using radios - this was apparently one of the first radio control systems outside of London. |
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Post by timelesstable on Aug 17, 2015 16:46:41 GMT 1
The VOSA rough calculation is 14 passengers per tonne (or should that be ton) Therefore a unladed 5.5t bus plus 30 passengers and driver tops the 7.5t limit could always do a SGi and take a few seats out................... But wouldn't that leave more room for standing passengers, so would potentially be even heavier? No, my suggestion for making people walk over the bridge was not in any way serious - . Neither was mine, although I do like the option of working services to either side of the bridge and allowing the passengers to cross on foot proposed by Arriva Wakefield. I suppose that option would cost more to provide turning facilities at either side of the bridge, but knowing how local politics work it might just get voted in............... |
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Post by timelesstable on Aug 17, 2015 16:49:19 GMT 1
But wouldn't that leave more room for standing passengers, so would potentially be even heavier? No, my suggestion for making people walk over the bridge was not in any way serious - or could it work if you had two connecting buses running up to the bridge? No, while Little White Bus have done that at Usha Gap during roadworks, I think that having it as a permanent arrangement on a main route would be so far off the scale it's out of sight - and that's before you even consider the chronic unreliability of any bus that runs through Fulford and the lack of anywhere to turn buses round. So it looks as though it's either going to be minibuses or running the long way round. Morning peak buses are often carrying 16-20 passengers over the bridge so capacity would be an issue for minibuses. Going via Ulleskelf might add 5 minutes if it ran express and didn't carry local passengers between York and A64, or 10 mins if you want it to call at Designer Outlet (which they probably would). Given the number of people who get off at D.O. or in Fulford, sending it up Taddy Road would not be popular. Under Jaronda the service was split in 2 with passengers crossing the bridge on foot for a period in the late 80s (?) when the bridge was having work done on it, and the buses communicated between themselves using radios - this was apparently one of the first radio control systems outside of London. Didn't something like this happen while a bridge en route to Goole was being repaired a good few years back as well |
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Matty
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Post by Matty on Aug 18, 2015 1:12:22 GMT 1
Ours only seat 23 so could reduce the standing capacity to zero maybe?
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Post by stevieinselby on Aug 18, 2015 11:31:37 GMT 1
NYCC have a meeting with Arriva today to discuss the issue.
Apparently the Utopia service will continue unaffected - don't know if that means they will be limited to using particular buses, as I would have thought that at least some of their Solos would be too heavy.
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Post by Burnside on Aug 18, 2015 14:29:34 GMT 1
Don't Utopia have at least 1 Merc Sprinter? That might be light enough?
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Post by stevieinselby on Aug 18, 2015 15:50:12 GMT 1
Don't Utopia have at least 1 Merc Sprinter? That might be light enough? They have a couple of Mercedes 616CDIs, which might just about scrape through, but the route needs 3 buses in service. They may have some other minibuses, but I don't know they would be wheelchair accessible or suitable for stage carriage work. |
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