New Northern & Transpennine Franchises / Scrapping "Pacers"

[timelesstable]

The government has confirmed it wants to scrap the 30-year-old Pacer trains on railways in northern England.

Companies bidding for the government's new rail franchises in the North will be required to replace them, the Department For Transport has announced

.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-31650705

Northern and TransPennine bidders will have to add 200 new train services daily and accommodate 19,000 extra Manchester commuters.

Built in the 1980s, Pacers were intended for short-term use.

The body of a bus with train wheels bolted on, they are still being used on the railways across the north of England even thought they were supposed to be a temporary solution to a rolling stock shortage.

[Deleted]

Fine words, which will be forgotten all too quickly after May 7th, I'd like to bet!

There's an election soon, don't cha know?

[timelesstable]

Feb 27, 2015 19:23:44 GMT 1 @itsjustmyjob said:

Fine words, which will be forgotten all too quickly after May 7th, I'd like to bet!

There's an election soon, don't cha know?

Unlikely since it is a condition of the bidding process

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-31650705

[gooderson1]

Yes things could change but will they. The invitations to tender for the new franchise will be issued before that date of the election and bidders will base their costs on replacing Pacers and everything else involved. If the replacement is dropped then the bidders will have to recalculate their costs. This will cost the bidders(win or lose) more money and after the West Coast franchise debacle a few years ago could cost the DOT money. Just a thought.

[rwilkes]

There is a possibility that pacers will be replaced by Underground stock from Metropolitan line, retrofitted with diesel engines
People will be delighted by this. Not.
It is often said that no new diesel trains can be built as no new engines would meet current EEC emissions rules!
But old trains with worse emissions have 'grandfather rights'.
Some of those Sunday increases in W Yorks are needed, but some will simply eat money by moving empty trains around

[westyorkshirebus]

The spec also states there will be 120 new build carriages for Northern to operate non electrified lines.

All existing rolling stock, besides the pacers to be refurbished to a high standard to make them look like new (rather than the very basic refreshes that Northern do at the moment)

I don't have any problem with a fully refurbished DMU 153,155,156,158. A lot of work will be required on the 150s to bring them up to acceptable standard.

Services in the North West that pass from Transpennine to Northern must be operated by a high standard 'Northern Express' train, allaying fears that transfer to Northern means a massive drop in quality.

There is still a gap though as 120 new coaches won't replace pacers and provide extra capacity, this could be cascades due to electrification and new trains elsewhere. There may be a short to medium term role for D78s but it is less secure than it was a few days ago.

[Burnside]

There is a question as to whether the scrapping of Pacer's means all of them or just the 142's as Porterbrook, who own the 144's are spending £800k refurbing a 2 car set to show they can be made DDA compliant, but even the 142's number 188 vehicles.

Of more concern, for staff and passengers is the requirement for 50% of mileage to be Driver Only Operated.

[Arriva Wakefield]

Feb 28, 2015 0:01:06 GMT 1 rwilkes said:

There is a possibility that pacers will be replaced by Underground stock from Metropolitan line, retrofitted with diesel engines
People will be delighted by this. Not.
It is often said that no new diesel trains can be built as no new engines would meet current EEC emissions rules!
But old trains with worse emissions have 'grandfather rights'.
Some of those Sunday increases in W Yorks are needed, but some will simply eat money by moving empty trains around

Don't think the 'S' stock is being withdrawn yet, and don't think many cars of 'A' stock survive.

It's the 'D' stock off the District that's being used for this project

[westyorkshirebus]

Feb 28, 2015 1:19:51 GMT 1 Burnside said:

There is a question as to whether the scrapping of Pacer's means all of them or just the 142's as Porterbrook, who own the 144's are spending £800k refurbing a 2 car set to show they can be made DDA compliant, but even the 142's number 188 vehicles.

Of more concern, for staff and passengers is the requirement for 50% of mileage to be Driver Only Operated.

It seems to specifically say 'all pacers'

Apparently the driver only operated bit is worded in a way that means the conductor wouldn't 'operate' the train in anyway, but would still be retained just on revenue duties. The conductor would only be removed entirely if all stations along the route had ticket machines, which as we know is quite unlikely.

[Deleted]

Feb 28, 2015 0:11:33 GMT 1 westyorkshirebus said:

The spec also states there will be 120 new build carriages for Northern to operate non electrified lines.

All existing rolling stock, besides the pacers to be refurbished to a high standard to make them look like new (rather than the very basic refreshes that Northern do at the moment)

I don't have any problem with a fully refurbished DMU 153,155,156,158. A lot of work will be required on the 150s to bring them up to acceptable standard.

Services in the North West that pass from Transpennine to Northern must be operated by a high standard 'Northern Express' train, allaying fears that transfer to Northern means a massive drop in quality.

There is still a gap though as 120 new coaches won't replace pacers and provide extra capacity, this could be cascades due to electrification and new trains elsewhere. There may be a short to medium term role for D78s but it is less secure than it was a few days ago.

I'm all for good refurbishments and I wish Northern Rail had done this in a systematic way with their fleet.
There have been some excellent 'upgrades' carried out to the class 156's and 158's by other operators so I'm lead to believe.

A bulk refurbishment will be a big job for whoever wins the next franchise.

It really is a pity that the class 158 wasn't manufactured in bigger numbers. A well maintained and refurbished 158 is still more than adequate for most of the work in the northern franchise in my opinion.

[biroguy]

A huge number of 170 Turbostars will be freed up by the Glasgow/Edinburgh electrification project as well as conversion of all Scottish
inter-city routes to HST operation around 2018.

[Deleted]

Leeds to Chester via the Calder Valley looks interesting. Particularly useful for getting me to the ferry at Holyhead for Ireland!

[Craig]

I've now had time to check over the franchise documents in more detail, please see below the planned service improvements planned for the new franchises. Unless stated otherwise, changes are planned from Dec 2017. It's hard to check peak time services and I haven't attempted this, but I think it's safe to assume that any current peak enhancements will still continue and there may be occasions where peak services are improved. Certainly increased seats on existing services is planned for peak services.

This is based on the minimum franchise specification, so services may be more enhanced than detailed below. Notes of trains not calling at particular stations, for example, are only the minimum spec and therefore the successful franchisee may opt to put in additional stops etc.

Airedale Line
Sunday: Bradford FS to Skipton increase to hourly.
Sunday: Leeds to Carlisle increase to 6 trains each way, 1 of which will extend through to/from Sheffield and Nottingham.
Sunday: Leeds to Lancaster increase to 5 trains each way.
From December 2019:
Mon to Sat: 1 extra train to Carlisle and 2 extra trains to Lancaster

Wharfedale Line
Sunday: Bradford FS to Ilkley increase to hourly.
Kirkstall Forge Station is specified an hourly daily service, with no specification of which service will call.
Apperley Bridge Station is specified two trains per hour Mon to Sat and an hourly Sunday service, with no specification of which service will call.

Harrogate Line
Mon to Sat: Two extra trains per hour Leeds to Harrogate via Horsforth. These are not specified to call at any other stations. One of these extra trains every 2 hours will eventually be an East Coast through train to/from London, and the intermediate stations can not accommodate longer trains. The Northern franchise holder will operate all the extra services from Dec 2017 until East Coast can start operation.
Sunday: The existing Leeds to Horsforth short services extended to Knaresborough, giving a 30-minute frequency.

York and Selby Line
Extra services to Hull Sundays and evenings.
Sunday: New hourly stopping service calling at all stops between Leeds and Selby, giving stations between Leeds and Micklefield a combined 30-minute frequency. As a result of this, the Transpennine Hull services are not planned to call at South Milford on Sundays.

Pontefract Line
Mon to Sat: Knottingley to Wakefield Kirkgate trains extended through to Wakefield Westgate and Leeds. These are not specified to call at Outwood.
Sunday: The above service, which currently has no Sunday service, is planned to run every 2 hours from Leeds to Wakefield and Knottingley.

Wakefield Line
Sunday: Leeds to Sheffield via Moorthorpe increase to hourly.
Sunday: Leeds to Doncaster via South Elmsall increase to hourly.

Penistone Line
Sunday service increase to hourly (currently there are gaps of 1 or 2 hours between trains).

Calder Valley Line
One existing train each hour between Leeds and Manchester to extend to Chester via Warrington Bank Quay.
The existing Leeds to Manchester via Dewsbury/Brighouse/Hebden Bridge service will not stop at Batley or Ravensthorpe but will call at Cottingley (with exceptions at peak times).
Sunday: Huddersfield to Leeds via Brighouse increase to hourly (currently the service is hourly as far as Halifax and every 2 hours to Brighouse/Huddersfield).
From December 2019:
Mon to Sat: New hourly service between Manchester Airport and Bradford Interchange calling at Manchester Vic, Hebden Bridge and Halifax.
Low Moor Station is specified an hourly daily service, with no specification of which service will call.

Huddersfield Line
Mon to Sat: New hourly service between Manchester, Huddersfield and Leeds (giving a total of 6 trains per hour). Also 1 additional Transpennine service will call at Dewsbury each hour, and 1 service each hour will call at Batley (to replace the current Northern stopping service via Brighouse). It is not specified which Transpennine services will be making these extra calls.
The existing Huddersfield to Wakefield service is planned to extend from Kirkgate to Normanton and Castleford. As a result it will not call at Wakefield Westgate. The Westgate to Kirkgate link will be maintained by the extended Knottingley service.
The existing Manchester to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Leeds stopping services will become part of the Transpennine franchise. It is not stated, but my assumption is that they will be linked together to form a through service. The Northern franchisee will still operate some stopping services, mainly at peak times, between Manchester and Huddersfield.
Mon to Sat: The Huddersfield to Leeds stopping service will call at Ravensthorpe but not at Cottingley (with exceptions at peak times, evenings and on Sundays).
Sunday: Huddersfield to Leeds stopping service increase to hourly, but specified to call only every 2 hours at both Deighton and Ravensthorpe.

No specified changes to Dearne Valley Line or Hallam Line.

[Bradford Traveller]

re: Huddersfield Line.
Huddersfield - Wakefield Westgate was until recently promoted as a feeder into the EC - do most passengers travel via Leeds now?

[driver6540]

Feb 28, 2015 19:34:29 GMT 1 Craig said:

I've now had time to check over the franchise documents in more detail, please see below the planned service improvements planned for the new franchises. Unless stated otherwise, changes are planned from Dec 2017. It's hard to check peak time services and I haven't attempted this, but I think it's safe to assume that any current peak enhancements will still continue and there may be occasions where peak services are improved. Certainly increased seats on existing services is planned for peak services.

This is based on the minimum franchise specification, so services may be more enhanced than detailed below. Notes of trains not calling at particular stations, for example, are only the minimum spec and therefore the successful franchisee may opt to put in additional stops etc.

Airedale Line
Sunday: Bradford FS to Skipton increase to hourly.
Sunday: Leeds to Carlisle increase to 6 trains each way, 1 of which will extend through to/from Sheffield and Nottingham.
Sunday: Leeds to Lancaster increase to 5 trains each way.
From December 2019:
Mon to Sat: 1 extra train to Carlisle and 2 extra trains to Lancaster

Wharfedale Line
Sunday: Bradford FS to Ilkley increase to hourly.
Kirkstall Forge Station is specified an hourly daily service, with no specification of which service will call.
Apperley Bridge Station is specified two trains per hour Mon to Sat and an hourly Sunday service, with no specification of which service will call.

Harrogate Line
Mon to Sat: Two extra trains per hour Leeds to Harrogate via Horsforth. These are not specified to call at any other stations. One of these extra trains every 2 hours will eventually be an East Coast through train to/from London, and the intermediate stations can not accommodate longer trains. The Northern franchise holder will operate all the extra services from Dec 2017 until East Coast can start operation.
Sunday: The existing Leeds to Horsforth short services extended to Knaresborough, giving a 30-minute frequency.

York and Selby Line
Extra services to Hull Sundays and evenings.
Sunday: New hourly stopping service calling at all stops between Leeds and Selby, giving stations between Leeds and Micklefield a combined 30-minute frequency. As a result of this, the Transpennine Hull services are not planned to call at South Milford on Sundays.

Pontefract Line
Mon to Sat: Knottingley to Wakefield Kirkgate trains extended through to Wakefield Westgate and Leeds. These are not specified to call at Outwood.
Sunday: The above service, which currently has no Sunday service, is planned to run every 2 hours from Leeds to Wakefield and Knottingley.

Wakefield Line
Sunday: Leeds to Sheffield via Moorthorpe increase to hourly.
Sunday: Leeds to Doncaster via South Elmsall increase to hourly.

Penistone Line
Sunday service increase to hourly (currently there are gaps of 1 or 2 hours between trains).

Calder Valley Line
One existing train each hour between Leeds and Manchester to extend to Chester via Warrington Bank Quay.
The existing Leeds to Manchester via Dewsbury/Brighouse/Hebden Bridge service will not stop at Batley or Ravensthorpe but will call at Cottingley (with exceptions at peak times).
Sunday: Huddersfield to Leeds via Brighouse increase to hourly (currently the service is hourly as far as Halifax and every 2 hours to Brighouse/Huddersfield).
From December 2019:
Mon to Sat: New hourly service between Manchester Airport and Bradford Interchange calling at Manchester Vic, Hebden Bridge and Halifax.
Low Moor Station is specified an hourly daily service, with no specification of which service will call.

Huddersfield Line
Mon to Sat: New hourly service between Manchester, Huddersfield and Leeds (giving a total of 6 trains per hour). Also 1 additional Transpennine service will call at Dewsbury each hour, and 1 service each hour will call at Batley (to replace the current Northern stopping service via Brighouse). It is not specified which Transpennine services will be making these extra calls.
The existing Huddersfield to Wakefield service is planned to extend from Kirkgate to Normanton and Castleford. As a result it will not call at Wakefield Westgate. The Westgate to Kirkgate link will be maintained by the extended Knottingley service.
The existing Manchester to Huddersfield and Huddersfield to Leeds stopping services will become part of the Transpennine franchise. It is not stated, but my assumption is that they will be linked together to form a through service. The Northern franchisee will still operate some stopping services, mainly at peak times, between Manchester and Huddersfield.
Mon to Sat: The Huddersfield to Leeds stopping service will call at Ravensthorpe but not at Cottingley (with exceptions at peak times, evenings and on Sundays).
Sunday: Huddersfield to Leeds stopping service increase to hourly, but specified to call only every 2 hours at both Deighton and Ravensthorpe.

No specified changes to Dearne Valley Line or Hallam Line.

Thanks for publishing this, My only comment is, it looks bloody complicated. We wont have time to get use to it either, because once the WY & GM lines are electrified, It'll all change again.

[Bradford Traveller]

thanks Craig for reading through!
The present Sunday train service seems to have sufficient capacity for the current usage but many intending passengers may be put off by 2 hour gaps in service

[casfreddy]

The figures for new build vehicles against scrapping of Pacers in the North just don't stack up. And where are the additional bogied cast offs going to come from? Then there is the issue of where the new units will come from, the leasing companies aren't looking to supply any, so who is? There is actually nothing wrong with the Class 144 units, they are in a far superior condition, both internally and externally, than most Northern dmu fleets, never mind the Class 142 units. The Class 144 units have been tarred with the same brush as Class 142 units which is very unfair. The suspension isn't the best, but is far better than when built. The interior colours aren't the best, but it would be hard to find seats as good, but we'll have to see how good the Porterbrook rework is, as this is an area where they could really mess up. West Yorkshire passengers have been fortunate to have the Class 144 units, and it would be a backwards step to have poor quality Class 15X units replace them.

[biroguy]

Mar 6, 2015 16:17:42 GMT 1 casfreddy said:

The figures for new build vehicles against scrapping of Pacers in the North just don't stack up. And where are the additional bogied cast offs going to come from? Then there is the issue of where the new units will come from, the leasing companies aren't looking to supply any, so who is? There is actually nothing wrong with the Class 144 units, they are in a far superior condition, both internally and externally, than most Northern dmu fleets, never mind the Class 142 units. The Class 144 units have been tarred with the same brush as Class 142 units which is very unfair. The suspension isn't the best, but is far better than when built. The interior colours aren't the best, but it would be hard to find seats as good, but we'll have to see how good the Porterbrook rework is, as this is an area where they could really mess up. West Yorkshire passengers have been fortunate to have the Class 144 units, and it would be a backwards step to have poor quality Class 15X units replace them.

Here Here! I could not agree more, the class 144 units knock spots off the awful, noisy Sprinters! The prospect of the old London underground trains turning up fills me with dread too.

[tinrocket]

There's an interesting irony re the seats on 144s - according to this month's TR:UK they're being replaced by the Fainsa seats which are notorious for their hardness!

[driver6540]

Interesting opinions from the posters above. I personally have always thought the 144's lacked legroom, even compared to the 142's. As for ride comfort/quality, I'm a bit bemused how anyone could even compare the rocking/bucking/jolting ride of a 142/144 Pacer to a Sprinter. Admittedly the 150's aren't exactly perfect, But the 156's are pure luxury compared to any Pacer. The sooner these crappy "nodding dog" bus-based time-expired anomalies are scrapped the better. But, that's only my opinion, and I'm sure many of you will disagree.

[ratty]

Travelled from Blackpool to Walsall the other day, 170/153 combination from BNS to Walsall, clean and comfy, X Country Voyager from Wolverhampton to BNS again comfy and clean, Virgin WC from Preston to Wolverhampton ( quiet coach) actually had a window seat and not a window pillar seat, comfy and clean (toilet still smelled though!!). Blackpool North to Preston a nasty nodding donkey 142. Cold day, heaters not working, seemed to struggle to move, dirty, filthy windows, sensational bucking bronco sensation, packed in to seats for 3, generally unpleasant journey. Thank God for the other 3 stages. A long time since I have been on a 142, (must be lucky because see them in Blackpool regularly, but never on my train). They are so obviously past sell by date, and so obviously need a major rework to bring them up to current travellers expectations, the only destination has to be scrap. Heaven help us that there is a repeat of the Class 50 preservation scenario, where loads get preserved, for future generations to 'enjoy'!!!!!

[davopazza]

There are details in this weeks Pontefact and Castleford Express which mention that there will be two trains an hour from Pontefact Monkhill to Leeds via Wakefield Westgate and two trains an hour from Knottingley to Leeds. There will also be an extension of the Featherstone to Wakefield Westgate and Leeds. It all sounds rather confusing to me.

[Bradford Traveller]

yes newspapers are not renowned for their understanding of transport documents.
From Craig's post above there seems to be no change to the basic frequency but the service via Featherstone is to be extended & to operate 7 days a week.