First Bus appeals against wheelchair court ruling

[timelesstable]

First said its bus drivers needed to know "what they are legally required to do and how".

First Bus is appealing against a court ruling, won by a disabled man from West Yorkshire, that the firm's wheelchair policy is discriminatory.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-30010126

[pub146g]

It's an awkward situation but I go along with the mother who was interviewed on the news clip who said "It's sometimes not easy but at least we can fold our buggies, something the wheelchair user can't do".

I did laugh at one comment someone came out with - "they should make more space so wheelchairs and buggies can be carried". Space on the lower deck is already at a premium without devoting even more space.

[ianigsy]

I can see First's point. If drivers are going to have to referee situations like this (which could easily end with police having to be called) then the lawyers need to clarify exactly what's expected of them (e.g. whether individual drivers would be open to prosecution). It'll also be interesting to see how the drivers' union advises their members to apply the law.

There's a woman who boards my X84 of an evening with a twin pushchair which probably wouldn't fold down- and if it did, she'd have to find seats for herself and two toddlers on an evening peak service. Presumably the data from disabled pass usage is there to help establish where wheelchair capacity is most needed, but it does raise questions as to whether operators are providing the right capacity in the right place at the right time.

[timelesstable]

Could this lead to a booking system for Wheelchair users!

[FIYHANunDer]

To be honest this could open a whole can of worms.

Arriva's current CPC courses are advising drivers that wheelchair users do NOT have priority and if someone with a buggy does not want to fold it then they have to wait. My argument has always been that buses are advertised as having buggy space which is factually incorrect, the space is a designated wheelchair bay brought about by the DDA rules. What happens come 2015/2016 when the DDA comes into force, who will have priority then. The other side of it is why should non-disabled pax be discriminated against by having to move or alight if a wheelchair user wants to board.

Take the 757 service for example, there is a gentleman who catches the service from Rawdon to the Airport, as a dedicated airport service should drivers be made to make someone with a buggy travelling to the airport for plane travel, alight for someone who is going on a leisure visit or if he is only going to Murgatroyds (where other buses are available)? Same goes for his return journey.

[FIYHANunDer]

Nov 11, 2014 21:27:07 GMT 1 ianigsy said:

I can see First's point. If drivers are going to have to referee situations like this (which could easily end with police having to be called) then the lawyers need to clarify exactly what's expected of them (e.g. whether individual drivers would be open to prosecution). It'll also be interesting to see how the drivers' union advises their members to apply the law.

There's a woman who boards my X84 of an evening with a twin pushchair which probably wouldn't fold down- and if it did, she'd have to find seats for herself and two toddlers on an evening peak service. Presumably the data from disabled pass usage is there to help establish where wheelchair capacity is most needed, but it does raise questions as to whether operators are providing the right capacity in the right place at the right time.

I am not sure if the disabled passes actually show the passenger as a wheelchair user.

[stevieinselby]

There's a big difference between saying that a passenger with a buggy must fold it up if possible to create space for a wheelchair user, and saying that a passenger with a buggy must get off the bus to create space for a wheelchair user. One sounds a lot more reasonable than the other. I'm not saying that I would like to be the driver in either situation, knowing how obnoxious and unreasonable some passengers can be, but it's a huge step to actually forcing passengers off the bus and I don't know that it's sensible. What about if the bus is full and standing, and there's no space for a wheelchair user to get on, do they have automatic priority over 4 or 5 passengers standing in the wheelchair bay? Would those passengers be ordered off the bus and made to wait for the next one?

[Arriva Wakefield]

Nov 12, 2014 7:45:09 GMT 1 stevieinselby said:

There's a big difference between saying that a passenger with a buggy must fold it up if possible to create space for a wheelchair user, and saying that a passenger with a buggy must get off the bus to create space for a wheelchair user. One sounds a lot more reasonable than the other. I'm not saying that I would like to be the driver in either situation, knowing how obnoxious and unreasonable some passengers can be, but it's a huge step to actually forcing passengers off the bus and I don't know that it's sensible. What about if the bus is full and standing, and there's no space for a wheelchair user to get on, do they have automatic priority over 4 or 5 passengers standing in the wheelchair bay? Would those passengers be ordered off the bus and made to wait for the next one?

I do believe that if the bus is close to capacity, and accepting the wheelchair would put the vehicle over capacity (as carrying the wheelchair usually reduces standing capacity by 3-5 people), then they can be refused as there is not the space available without making passengers already on board leave the bus.

[576 Gemini 2]

Nov 11, 2014 21:33:58 GMT 1 timelesstable said:

Could this lead to a booking system for Wheelchair users!

Hate to see that happen

[Steve Macz403]

All types of public transport face this problem.

Pushchairs have become larger and have more "child safety features" over the years.When my younger brother was a baby, we could get his pushchair on step entrance Olympians now a days ive seen pushchairs that are that big they can't even go on the bus. I do think wheelchair users should have priority.

Newer buses post 2012 and have negated the problem, by sideways facing seats at the front. allowing 2 spaces rather than 1 on pre 2009 vehicles. This may increase space, but a wheelchair user still can't be guaranteed the space regardless of bus or route.

It's like hoping to get a seat on a busy peak time bus service.

[A1YBG]

Nov 12, 2014 21:14:34 GMT 1 Steve Macz403 said:

All types of public transport face this problem.

Pushchairs have become larger and have more "child safety features" over the years.When my younger brother was a baby, we could get his pushchair on step entrance Olympians now a days ive seen pushchairs that are that big they can't even go on the bus. I do think wheelchair users should have priority.

Newer buses post 2012 and have negated the problem, by sideways facing seats at the front. allowing 2 spaces rather than 1 on pre 2009 vehicles. This may increase space, but a wheelchair user still can't be guaranteed the space regardless of bus or route.

It's like hoping to get a seat on a busy peak time bus service.

Think people with buggy's have taken advantage for soo long it's now become a routine for them. One think buses do lack is the size of the luggage rack. Before low floors All buggy's used to be folded up and put into the racks. We always coped with that buggy in one hand and baby in the other. These days also they can't be bothered to fold up their buggys even the most easiest one to fold. If there is no room for another buggy on board they would rather wait for the next bus which 9/10 is a step entrance or already buggys on board. I see this All the time at Birstall retail park. Sometimes end up in a fight asking where they getting off and can they walk the rest aha.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using proboards

[timelesstable]

First Bus wins wheelchair court judgement

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-30376446

Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users in designated bays on vehicles, senior judges ruled.

First Bus appealed against a court ruling, won by a disabled man from West Yorkshire, that the firm's wheelchair policy was discriminatory

[kendall17]

I dont think First 'won' anything.

They appealed because they wanted clarity on what to do. This just muddies the water further.

[gooderson1]

The saga will continue and the only people making money out of it, as usual, are the solicitors and council representing all parties at the original tribunal and the appeal court. The money will continue to mount up as the person who brought the action now intends to go to the Supreme Court and appeal the ruling(according to the radio last night). No doubt the ruling from that court will eventually end up at The European Court of Human Rights and more "bucks" in lawyers pockets.

[Penfold]

Dec 8, 2014 17:38:05 GMT 1 timelesstable said:

First Bus wins wheelchair court judgement

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-30376446

Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users in designated bays on vehicles, senior judges ruled.

First Bus appealed against a court ruling, won by a disabled man from West Yorkshire, that the firm's wheelchair policy was discriminatory

To me nobody has won anything as the driver will still be in the middle of the warring situation when a wheelchair and pushchair 'fight' for the space.

What will happen now with the signs 'Designated wheelchair space' or even the nice light blue 'painted wheelchair' space on Arriva Yorkshires new E200's ?

Penfold

[FIYHANunDer]

Dec 9, 2014 11:46:07 GMT 1 Penfold said:

Dec 8, 2014 17:38:05 GMT 1 timelesstable said:

First Bus wins wheelchair court judgement

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-30376446

Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users in designated bays on vehicles, senior judges ruled.

First Bus appealed against a court ruling, won by a disabled man from West Yorkshire, that the firm's wheelchair policy was discriminatory

To me nobody has won anything as the driver will still be in the middle of the warring situation when a wheelchair and pushchair 'fight' for the space.

What will happen now with the signs 'Designated wheelchair space' or even the nice light blue 'painted wheelchair' space on Arriva Yorkshires new E200's ?

Penfold

Nothing, I think its part of DDA that DDA accessible buses have the wheelchair sticker on them, so wheelchair users know the bus is accessible.

As a driver I can see how the ruling will give drivers the necessary confidence to be able to say to a wheelchair user they are unable to get on.

As a manager I hope bus companies throughout the region all start to do the same things and come together in order to avoid any similar circumstances.

All parties are at fault and people need to learn from this. It seems symptomatic of today's society that everyone else gets blame and its "not my problem". Whilst I feel for wheelchair users some (and i said some, not all!) really need to take a look at themselves and remove the attitude, although same can be said for buggy users. Whatever happened before buses were accessible? You ask some to fold or wait and they look at you like s***. I occasionally drive Versa's and they can only fit one "normal" sized buggy on, never mind the massive twin buggys you see. Yep folk do not understand and believe it is their right to get on the bus.