Pennine Motor Services

[guyarab]

This morning BBC Radio Leeds had a phone-in asking if public transport is beneficial. This was arranged following First's short notice implementation of a fares revision (in West Yorkshire at least).
One of the callers mentioned that in six weeks' time Pennine will cease operations. One of the reasons suggested that it is because the company receives little remuneration from the councils in whose areas it operates (specifically NYCC as Lancashire County Council does offer a better return).

Is anyone aware of this?

[guyarab]

Before starting this thread I searched for Pennine Motor Services and no article on the company was found, but I have now seen the results of such as my enquiry discussed elsewhere on this forum.

[rwilkes]

There will be a new commercial service every 2 hrs M-S by Kirkby Lonsdale Coaches from 28th July
details on www.dalesbus.org soon

[gooderson1]

Visited Skipton to photograph the "operations" of North Yorkshire County Council. These are replacement(I use the word with some caution) services for those closed by Pennine Motors.

I saw a late morning Skipton Town service(route 16) leave operated by a 16 seat minibus. It was closely followed by another minibus operating as a back up bus.A later route 14 to Embsay again had a duplicate us following the service bs

The duplicate on route 16 returned to the bus station with the service bus and parked up

Having slashed the money given to local operators how much is it costing NYCC to provide a duplicate to journeys

Pity the poorrate payersof NorthYorkshre

[stevieinselby]

Aug 7, 2014 16:53:06 GMT 1 gooderson1 said:

Having slashed the money given to local operators how much is it costing NYCC to provide a duplicate to journeys

Very few of Pennine's services were subsidised by the council. When NYCC published details of subsidised services in the run-up to the 2011 massacre, it was only a couple of journeys each way on the 212 and 580 that were subsidised. Yes, the council paid for ENCTS holders, just as they would on any other service, but that was about all. And yes, they are running duplicate buses, but from their existing fleet, so there are no extra ownership costs, just drivers' hours and marginal running costs.

But one thing that we seem to have missed is the role of a municipal bus company. Other councils have been selling theirs off for a quick buck, but NYCC has actually reinstated one! And if it's cheaper to pay the running costs and drivers' hours on two minibuses than to subsidise the running costs and drivers' hours and ownership costs of full-size buses and the profit margin that a private company would want, who are we to say that it is wrong?

Of course, the lack of commuter and Saturday services is the big fly in the ointment ... but that aside, what's wrong with the council running buses?

[jc]

As far as I can tell it's a bit catch-22; if the council aren't willing to operate commuter services any private company wanting to 'fill the gap' with a peak hour service would probably have to run it off the back of a school contract, which means either using larger buses or a pre 7.30am-ish arrival in town.

[gooderson1]

If I am correct N Yorks CC were only paying operators 29p per pound towards each English senior free bus pass. For example if a fare cost £2 then the operator only got 58p and they were out of pocket. It does not matter whether it is a private or council operator a loss on each free pass is being made. The only difference is that the ratepayers of N Yorks are taking the hit rather than a private operator

[stevieinselby]

Aug 10, 2014 10:08:32 GMT 1 gooderson1 said:

If I am correct N Yorks CC were only paying operators 29p per pound towards each English senior free bus pass. For example if a fare cost £2 then the operator only got 58p and they were out of pocket. It does not matter whether it is a private or council operator a loss on each free pass is being made. The only difference is that the ratepayers of N Yorks are taking the hit rather than a private operator

Except that the private operator won't carry on taking the hit. If the reduction in income from pass-holders means that the service is no longer commercially viable, they will stop running it, and NYCC will then have to take it on themselves, pay someone else to run it, or leave people without a bus service. If they are subsidising a service then the operator will want the subsidy to cover the reduced income from pass-holders. Either way, it comes out of the council coffers.

[rwilkes]

Most dales services the ENCTS payment is just over £1, which is outrageous

The new Skip- Settle servcie by K Lonsdale coaches seems to be doing quite well

[gooderson1]

Why is it outrageous. I would not mind paying a flat fare when using my old folks pass. That way we would be more likely to keep services rather than having them axed as has happened on N Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire recently

[stevieinselby]

Aug 11, 2014 7:18:46 GMT 1 gooderson1 said:

Why is it outrageous. I would not mind paying a flat fare when using my old folks pass. That way we would be more likely to keep services rather than having them axed as has happened on N Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire recently

While people will often tell you that you can't "top up" the fare and that it is illegal for drivers to allow you to do so, what they are very coy about mentioning is that it is perfectly legal for you to "forget" your pass every now and then, and pay the full fare for, let's say, one journey in three. That way, you are still getting much cheaper travel overall, but the bus company gets more income from those journeys where you pay cash. It isn't as good as being able to top up, because they don't get anything from the council for those journeys, but it's better than nothing.

[rwilkes]

It is outrageous that NYCC pay so little
It is stupid that OAPS cannot top up their fares legally. They could choose to not use their pass say once a week. But this would only help if it were a mass movement
It is thought by many in officialdom that if OAPs paid something towards their fare, say £1 flat fare for every trip, the treasury would simply cut the ENCTS payments so bus companies would be no better off.

[dwarfer1979]

Aug 11, 2014 18:11:59 GMT 1 stevieinselby said:

Aug 11, 2014 7:18:46 GMT 1 gooderson1 said:

Why is it outrageous. I would not mind paying a flat fare when using my old folks pass. That way we would be more likely to keep services rather than having them axed as has happened on N Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire recently

While people will often tell you that you can't "top up" the fare and that it is illegal for drivers to allow you to do so, what they are very coy about mentioning is that it is perfectly legal for you to "forget" your pass every now and then, and pay the full fare for, let's say, one journey in three. That way, you are still getting much cheaper travel overall, but the bus company gets more income from those journeys where you pay cash. It isn't as good as being able to top up, because they don't get anything from the council for those journeys, but it's better than nothing.

The problem for the industry is that we have actually been told we can't even suggest that passengers might like to pay to keep services going, EYMS tried it and got a letter from the DfT telling them to stop as saying 'pay a fare to stop the service being withdrawn' amounts to blackmail and so is illegal (and as such can't provide discounts or anything else for ENCTS holders). It does depend on where you board as to how bad the situation is, North Yorks just pay so badly (it is almost the lowest rate I have heard of, certainly for a countywide standard payment) that it becomes almost impossible to make any money if you have a higher than average concessionary travel loadings (which is the common situation in rural areas and was even before free passes came in).

[gooderson1]

The other alternative is to charge for issuing the ENCTS card(Network Rail do it with the rail travel cards) and ensure the council use it to support bus services. It also only takes a slight change of legislation by government and bus operators could charge a flat fare on production of the ENCTS. I appreciate that it is outside the hours of use but Go-Coach at Swanley in Kent charge a flat fare for journeys made before 0930 by Card holders so it can be done

[rwilkes]

A good thing about free travel for OAPs is that many car users have used the buses for the first time and found them excellent. A charge for a card might prevent this. A better idea would be to make the rail+bus card free. This would certainly boost rail travel and bring in a lot of extra fares which would help the government coffers and reduce congestion. But this would set the start date for free bus travel back at 60 which the government would not do. But bus companies could allow a 50% fare reduction for rail card holders, UK wide, and this would be sensible for bus companies.
As the age qualification for free bus travel is going up by 6 months per year in England, the problem, will solve itself, but we might have lost all our rural buses by then!
I often clear litter from buses I am on to 'pay' for my free travel. Bus companies could try get OAPs to speak up for buses more, in the press and to their paying friends

[stevieinselby]

Aug 12, 2014 8:12:29 GMT 1 dwarfer1979 said:

The problem for the industry is that we have actually been told we can't even suggest that passengers might like to pay to keep services going, EYMS tried it and got a letter from the DfT telling them to stop as saying 'pay a fare to stop the service being withdrawn' amounts to blackmail and so is illegal (and as such can't provide discounts or anything else for ENCTS holders).

That does sound like a particularly crass and dictatorial attitude for DfT to take, and makes it pretty obvious that they are deliberately setting out to sabotage bus services by preventing them from being economically viable, which is a despicable way to go about things.

[rwilkes]

You assume the DfT knows what it is doing, in fact they have very little clue. They would like better bus services but they think they know better than either politicians, local government or the bus industry. The politicians also think they know best and that the others don't. The reality is that most busmen and a very few local authorities know how to do buses, and the rest mess up big time!

[ianigsy]

Aug 12, 2014 9:39:49 GMT 1 rwilkes said:

A good thing about free travel for OAPs is that many car users have used the buses for the first time and found them excellent. A charge for a card might prevent this. A better idea would be to make the rail+bus card free. This would certainly boost rail travel and bring in a lot of extra fares which would help the government coffers and reduce congestion. But this would set the start date for free bus travel back at 60 which the government would not do. But bus companies could allow a 50% fare reduction for rail card holders, UK wide, and this would be sensible for bus companies.
As the age qualification for free bus travel is going up by 6 months per year in England, the problem, will solve itself, but we might have lost all our rural buses by then!
I often clear litter from buses I am on to 'pay' for my free travel. Bus companies could try get OAPs to speak up for buses more, in the press and to their paying friends

A fringe benefit of the ENCTS has probably been taking some older motorists and vehicles off the road; I know of at least two ex-drivers (both now sadly deceased) who were both driving over 75 and eventually persuaded to give their cars up after minor accidents or near misses. The nature of the aging process means that you're often the last person to notice your reactions going- and drivers on a pension will be less likely to upgrade regularly than somebody on a salary.

[SF07]

KG52 VAA now with Stotts in Oldham still in Pennine colours:

www.flickr.com/photos/68702029@N08/15028259930