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Post by rwilkes on Mar 19, 2014 18:21:43 GMT 1
Are looking for a buyer or to close down or restructure - will run for another 8 weeks In this weeks Route One www.route-one.net/ |
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Post by stevieinselby on Mar 19, 2014 21:17:16 GMT 1
It's a shame for those who have worked for the company that it's facing difficulties, but I can't help thinking that they possibly should have seen the writing on the wall for the 215 when Transdev increased their frequency to half-hourly ... did they really expect brand loyalty to be enough to help them to compete against a more frequent service using much nicer buses that were guaranteed to be wheelchair friendly? Perhaps they should have abandoned that as a lost cause sooner to concentrate on routes without competition. Or was the 215 propping up a load of loss-making routes across the rest of the network?
There are a couple of sensible options for covering those services, whether under the Pennine brand or other operators stepping in and taking over. Obviously there is no point in continuing with the 215. It's going to be hard to cover the 210 as well, without it being a stand-alone diagram at the start and end of the day and nothing in-between.
Plan A - 3 buses
One bus running an hourly service on any two of the 212, 214 and 216.
Two buses running an hourly service on the other town service and the 580.
(I would have thought there ought to be enough traffic to justify the 580 running hourly on Saturdays as well)
Plan B - 2 buses
One bus running a 90-minute service on the 212, 214 and 216.
One bus running a 90-minute service on the 580.
(Could be different operators, no reason why they would have to be the same one)
Embsay and Carleton are discrete villages that are two miles from Skipton town centre, so even if a service is not commercially viable, it should fall within NYCC's remit to subsidise a service, as it is outside the scope of the dreaded "town service" that they have turned their backs on.
Hopefully this might be an opportunity to get some more suitable buses on the 580 - B10BLEs would be much better than Darts, even if they are just as old they will give a much better ride.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Mar 20, 2014 9:14:40 GMT 1
To an extent I am surprised they have survived this long as they have said that the bus operations haven't made a profit in years and they were effectively subsidising them from the income the family got from owning a number of commercial properties around Skipton. With declining income caused by reduced concessionary fares reimbursement & council cuts, operators in very rural areas like this will struggle if they have no strong core to help cover the basic overheads - the only route in Pennines network that would probably fit that category was the one with competition which would generally mean the route wouldn't be strong enough on its own if it is having to fight for the revenue on it. It's a shame because regardless of the age of the vehicles Pennines fleet always looked well cared for but the age of the vehicles it has run gives you an indication of the cost pressures they have had to face and how long they have had to do so.
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Post by www.buseireann.ie on Mar 20, 2014 12:47:44 GMT 1
I think routes they've ran locally would have done much better if they'd increased the frequency and more importantly marketed them better to tourists and locals.
Take the 580, so many houses en route, so many car owners, so many train users paying over the odds fares, so much missed opportunity! You'd think Gargrave being like a town and Settle actually being a town would have much better bus links. Every car owner is a potential customer, train users like myself don't like paying high fares. Wacky as it sounds I'd withdraw the 215 and increase the frequency of the 580 to every 15 mins and have a day return fare of £5.50 and a period return equivellent to £4.50 return per day to Settle. This tempts car users and train users alike because it's more frequent than the train and cheaper than both.
During the summer Saturday months I'd use the school vehicles to increase the frequency of the 214 to Embassy (to half hourly most of the day) and market the Embassy to Bolton Abbey Railway in a joint venture with the railway owners , I'd also extend hourly journeys through to Bolton Abbey, their's gold to be made out of tourists, they've just got to provide an incentive for tourists to part with their gold.
The recent farce with school kids over Carleton way could have been an excellent PR coup for Pennine if they'd have only offered discounted journeys on top of the half fare entitlement to those kids, it's better than running an empty vehicle and parents might feel greatful enough to want to try Penine's service every now and again. I'd have also offered earlier journeys on all routes to the train station for commuters to Leeds/Bradford.
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Post by deerfold on Mar 20, 2014 14:38:14 GMT 1
As an occasional visitor to Skipton I have no idea how much Pennine costs. They've got a website but I do wonder why. They've a list of "offers" at www.pennine-bus.co.uk/offers.html but not a single price or explanation of what a "day shopper" or "Wayfarer" or a "Special 4 week pass" is. |
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Mar 20, 2014 16:44:26 GMT 1
As an occasional visitor to Skipton I have no idea how much Pennine costs. They've got a website but I do wonder why. They've a list of "offers" at www.pennine-bus.co.uk/offers.html but not a single price or explanation of what a "day shopper" or "Wayfarer" or a "Special 4 week pass" is. Day Shoppers are basically a return fare. The Wayfarer is basically a day ticket, but a very expensive one at that - something like £12 I think. |
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77syk7
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Post by 77syk7 on Mar 20, 2014 20:32:09 GMT 1
I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties of Pennine Motors which has served the Craven communities and beyond for nearly 90 years.However,as members have pointed out - it could not have survived much longer in its present format. The Skipton locals to Embsay / Carleton & Town Circular could be covered by Pride of The Dales or maybe Jacksons of Silsden. The Burnley / Barnoldswick routes do not need replacing, which just leaves the 580 to Settle. A regular hourly frequency is probably needed Monday to Saturday with a few evening / Sunday journeys subsidised - Keighley & District or Burnley & Pendle could probably increase patronage with an attractive range of tickets and good publicity.
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Post by SCH117X on Mar 20, 2014 23:01:47 GMT 1
Of course it could have been very different if NYCC had not typically fouled up a number of years ago when it awarded its Craven area contracts to Blazefield only for the award to be challenged as it had not given the required time period for bids to be placed. Meanwhile Blazefield had ordered a fleet of new vehicles for its Craven & District operation for which NYCC then had to stand the cost when the contracts were awarded elsewhere.Wonder if Pennine would have fallen through earlier with a smartly turned out Blazefield operation on its doorstep, which probably would today be Transdev Craven Connect.
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Post by stevieinselby on Mar 21, 2014 0:20:47 GMT 1
Of course, a local brand of Trans devPennine would be kinda funny  |
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Mar 21, 2014 9:23:39 GMT 1
I think routes they've ran locally would have done much better if they'd increased the frequency and more importantly marketed them better to tourists and locals. Take the 580, so many houses en route, so many car owners, so many train users paying over the odds fares, so much missed opportunity! You'd think Gargrave being like a town and Settle actually being a town would have much better bus links. Every car owner is a potential customer, train users like myself don't like paying high fares. Wacky as it sounds I'd withdraw the 215 and increase the frequency of the 580 to every 15 mins and have a day return fare of £5.50 and a period return equivellent to £4.50 return per day to Settle. This tempts car users and train users alike because it's more frequent than the train and cheaper than both. During the summer Saturday months I'd use the school vehicles to increase the frequency of the 214 to Embassy (to half hourly most of the day) and market the Embassy to Bolton Abbey Railway in a joint venture with the railway owners , I'd also extend hourly journeys through to Bolton Abbey, their's gold to be made out of tourists, they've just got to provide an incentive for tourists to part with their gold. The recent farce with school kids over Carleton way could have been an excellent PR coup for Pennine if they'd have only offered discounted journeys on top of the half fare entitlement to those kids, it's better than running an empty vehicle and parents might feel greatful enough to want to try Penine's service every now and again. I'd have also offered earlier journeys on all routes to the train station for commuters to Leeds/Bradford. It's chicken & egg, if you aren't making money in the first place you won't have sufficient spare capital to be able to cover the extra costs whilst you wait for the revenue to build up to cover them. None of us will truly know what the financial position was at Pennine at any one time but it is highly likely that if they had tried such drastic increases in service (it may seem a small jump but Pennine was only a small company) it could well have killed off the company before the extra revenue could come in to turn a loss into profit. What happens after the Pennine issue has resolved itself (either with Pennine finding new investment or another operator replacing them) will give you a good indication of what the long term prospects may have been for those services - it isn't traditionally considered good bus territory and there is a lot of empty country and building your entire business model and betting the whole company on the hope you can get enough visitors to use your buses is always going to be a risk (particularly somewhere like the Dales where bad weather seems worse by the rural nature & height of the land), a period of bad summers or short good weather periods will lead to real problems on keeping the company afloat. Pennine have not had an easy time of it since deregulation with some fairly illogical happenings including a Post Bus being introduced up to some of the villages that they had served for years as they hadn't noticed there was already a bus service which forced Pennine to withdraw most of their journeys on those routes. |
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Post by rwilkes on Mar 27, 2014 22:18:41 GMT 1
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Post by stevieinselby on Mar 29, 2014 9:41:17 GMT 1
www.lancashirebus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=1091It's not all bad news! Transdev B&P are going to put on an extra bus, and extend the 29 to Skipton, providing a 15-minute frequency between Skipton, Barnoldswick, Colne and Burnley from 19 May. So from having one knackered old bus an hour to Skipton before, there are now going to be four shiny new ones. I wonder if this will also see any improvement in the evening service. On a positive note: so it looks as though they may be interested in picking up some of Pennine's other services as well. Although I did have to admire their two-facedness when they said: given that in a large part it is the competition from their services on Pennine's prime route that has precipitated the closure!
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 29, 2014 10:25:17 GMT 1
They'll need some more buses, just after they've sold off all surplus modern buses. I bet they will nick 2 B10BLEs or B7RLEs from York and cascade in something older.
If they were to take Pennine's local services, Keighley would be a better fit, and I bet the ex-Veolia Solos would be reinstated yet again.
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Post by deerfold on Mar 29, 2014 11:16:21 GMT 1
If Keighley do take anything over I'd put money on them developing a new local brand to stop the relatively cheap (compared to Burnley's tickets) K-days being valid. Validity on the bus from Skipton to Grassington didn't last for long after B&P took over and are not valid on the Sunday Ilkley - Skipton and Grassington services.
Presumably after the Burnley - Skipton service is taken over the remaining PVR is around 7 - and that's only if all current routes were taken.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Mar 29, 2014 20:40:26 GMT 1
It does seem to be 7. The main service can be run by 3 buses then you've got the 210, which would be annoying to run as it runs right across both peaks and school times, and then 3 extra buses at school time.
I'd suggest for them to deploy 3 Darts/Solos commercially on the town work, and let NYCC work out what it does or doesn't do with the rest.
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Post by stevieinselby on Mar 29, 2014 22:08:25 GMT 1
Presumably after the Burnley - Skipton service is taken over the remaining PVR is around 7 - and that's only if all current routes were taken. Nothing like it. The normal daytime service on the 212, 214, 216 and 580 needs just 3 buses to run an hourly service on all of them. Add one for the school journey buses to Malham, and maybe one extra for peak time town services and you've got a PVR of at most 5, as far as I can see. |
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Post by timelesstable on Mar 30, 2014 21:35:43 GMT 1
Can vultures shed crocodile tears? Looks like it......
This is an official statement from Lancashire Bus.
"Following concerns in the Skipton region that public transport in the area will be drastically cut following the potential closure of Pennine Motor Services, we are increasing the frequency of the Mainline service into Skipton and making some changes to the route. This will offer an improved service to the local community and minimise the impact on the bus user.
The loss of services running into Skipton leads to justified concerns over capacity in the area, to combat this we will be adding an extra bus into their Mainline service which will be able to provide additional peak time journeys and an improved frequency throughout the day. On weekdays up to four buses an hour will link Skipton with Barnoldswick and East Lancashire. Many of the additional journeys will operate via Craven College on Gargrave Road giving that area a half hourly link to the town centre.
We will also be working closely with North Yorkshire County Council to review further services to support the local community and ensure public transport links are maintained.
Richard Jackson, Transdevs Development Director, said ‘We are greatly saddened to hear of the possible demise of such an established company, unfortunately it seems the cuts that are currently being imposed across all public transport operators have had a dramatic effect on Pennine Motor service. We are however pleased to be able to offer an improved service, which should minimise the impact on the local community and bus users.’
We hope to have these services running from the19th May 2014, subject to approval, in order to reduce disruption to the bus services."
Source:http://www.sct61.org.uk/zzjwt724
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77syk7
Forum Member
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Post by 77syk7 on Apr 2, 2014 20:28:04 GMT 1
The latest edition of the Route One magazine has an article about Pennine - a final date of operation is given as 16th May
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Post by ianigsy on Apr 27, 2014 23:42:54 GMT 1
I've only ever used Pennine once, for a Skipton-Malham day return one Saturday which, by the looks of things, I couldn't now make. At the time I seem to remember thinking that there was more or less a different timetable for each day of the week once you take schooldays and market days into account.
So it looks like a relic of a bygone age, unfortunately. A victim of changing times- I'd guess that in the past Pennine drew most of their business from housewives and youngsters who now all drive or get lifts, and the Dales tourist traffic isn't enough to justify a year-round business.
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Post by rwilkes on Apr 28, 2014 8:58:37 GMT 1
A study of short hop[ (3m) fares in Passenger Transport showed Pennine to be the most expensive in the UK at £5. Transdev were dear at £3.50 but at least they have top notch buses.
Pennine had difficult operating territory and an lousy county council, but they played their hand badly by not targeting the tourist market and refusing all subsidy. Despite this theydid well to hang on so long.
Subsidy is not a completely good thing, but when times were better the rural bus grant could have helped relaunch the Settle route as a growing commercial service and made the Malham service more attractive to tourists
For the future, Burnley Skipton will get its best service ever, we wil have to wait and see for the others
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Post by stevieinselby on May 6, 2014 22:51:26 GMT 1
NYCC have now posted replacement timetables for the Embsay and Carleton services. Still nothing for Giggleswick, Greatwood or Malham, and still no sign of a new Mainline timetable from Transdev.
Buses to Carleton will be renumbered as 12, and will run on weekdays only, leaving Skipton at 1015, 1215 and 1415, plus a school journey each way via the bus station.
Buses to Embsay will be renumbered as 14, and again will run on weekdays only, leaving Skipton at 0950, 1120 and 1320, plus a school journey each way not via the bus station.
I am really disappointed by this – even given NYCC's utterly appalling track record on public transport over the last few years, I would have expected better of them than this. These are sizeable dormitory villages that are 2 miles from the town centre, and (particularly for Carleton) don't look like the kind of villages that are awash with money and where everyone can afford to drive without thinking about it. The residents of Skipton must be getting far and away the worst deal for public transport of any significant market town in the county.
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Post by SCH117X on May 7, 2014 18:36:55 GMT 1
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Post by stevieinselby on May 7, 2014 20:16:44 GMT 1
Interesting that they are providing a better service to Horse Close than to Embsay or Carleton, despite it being closer to town, and not having had such a good service under Pennine, and it falling squarely under their definition of "town service", which was supposed to be entirely commercial (if at all)!
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Post by www.buseireann.ie on May 7, 2014 20:52:19 GMT 1
What's even more interesting is that the've not taken the opportunity of merging the 580 and 581 together to at least have a go at making both routes more viable! For years it's looked like the 581 having served many small villages will be cut down, never expected the 580 to be slashed so much the 581 has more journeys!
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Post by stevieinselby on May 7, 2014 21:12:10 GMT 1
I think NYCC are still hoping that another operator will come along and start up a proper service, and in the meantime they are providing a slightly-below-bare-minimum service as a holding point. Either that or they are hoping to show there is no demand for services (by running one that is so sparse as to be practically unusable for most people) so that they can justify withdrawing it altogether. Note that there is no Saturday service at all on any of these routes, and no commuter service at all.
212: 76 journeys a week, down to 15 = 80% reduction
214: 71 journeys a week, down to 15 = 75% reduction
216: 58 journeys a week, down to 25 = 57% reduction
580: 66 journeys a week, down to 15/30 = 77%/55% reduction (to Giggleswick/Hellifield)
The loss of connections with the 581 is a very good point. The entire 580/581 timetable has for years been built around that connection. Maybe KLC will despair at the totally inadequate level of service between Skipton and Settle and extend their services to Skipton. We can but hope, because one thing is for sure, if it's left up to NYCC then there will be a deliberate policy of running the service into the ground until the point where they are providing absolutely nothing.
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