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Post by deerfold on Sept 4, 2023 20:37:31 GMT 1
They seem to be reasons why you would never use a service like that, not why no-one would. I once used a service that only ran 3 times a day. But it ran at good times for me to get to work and back. Was hopeless if I met up with people after work for a drink, though. I still occasionally catch the 586 in Halifax. It's very annoying that it's only every two hours. But better than the fare of the 539 at the same time. Frequency of bus service is important to me, which is why I live on a road with 7 buses an hour. But I used to live on the route of the 586 - Rishworth used to have 3 buses an hour into Halifax. 0.5bph an hour is a horrendous drop, but not as bad as no service. My reasons for commuting are the same the large majority of people. Commuting, shopping, and leisure. If you reduce a well used bus route down to a two hour frequency, you'll force people into cars, and they'll likely never return to buses, other than at best a couple trips a month. It would cause damage that genuinely wouldn't be fixable. Just to minimise a slightly inconvenient problem? You didn't mention well used bus routes - yes, I'd be surprised at them going to that frequency (as I was with the 586).
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Post by Username on Sept 4, 2023 20:39:50 GMT 1
Or a more radical solution would be to replace both the X98/9 with an hourly one way circular service from Wetherby via Collingham and East Keswick back to Wetherby with Linton not served at all. Wetherby is already served by the 7 from Leeds (it's probably about 15 minutes longer but it's a service) and Scarcroft could be served by diverting the 781 and 923. Scarcroft and Linton are really car villages in reality, you do see people using the bus from these areas to/from Leeds but it's not exactly a queue. Not great I know, with links to Leeds lost for the majority, but with struggling driver resources something like this needs to start happening, either that or reliability really takes a hit. Another example is Lightcliffe, does it need the 571 and 255, defo not so why not axe the 255 beyond Cleckheaton, would save a driver. It's probably going to take the same amount of time to reach Leeds going via Bradford from Scholes/Wyke, and the 255 as is it isn't all that reliable in reality so has probably lost a lot of custom anyway. The 571 could be amended so it serves Brighouse train station and links into trains to Leeds to satisfy Lightcliffe passengers, the rest of the 255 route into Halifax is already covered by the 548/9 with Leeds passengers able to change onto a 508 at Shibden, or the train at Halifax. Again not great to do this, but the current situation of never ending driver shortages won't change so reliability just suffers, and waiting 2 hours plus in Lightcliffe with it's lack of shelters just puts people right back in their car. Actually I believe people would rather have the 571 cut over the 255 as if the 255 is cut Lightcliffe is demoted to a slower and more unreliable service. From what I checked also, Lightcliffe Academy students rely heavily on the 255 and not the 571. Usually when I travel on the 571, I am the only one who travels beyond Whinney Hill.
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Post by dlspotter on Sept 4, 2023 21:23:51 GMT 1
A route running every two hours? I'm gonna be real with you not a single soul on earth is ever gonna use that service The solution is to continue as normal, with better communication. A few cancellations is substantially better than a bus route being plummeted into a point of no return... Not sure that's fair, as there is examples of routes running 2 Hourly that do have an OK amount of passengers (Yorks 22/3 or 840 to Whitby for examples within Transdev) I'd say it depends on what the frequency is to start with over if you look at reducing (although communications need to better in general), in the case of Route 36 surely Transdev should of known how their driver situation was like before reintroducing the 10 Min frequency to route 36 & If they knew they'd be short then it's fair to say they are guilty of poor management/planning. 22/23 are only 2 hourly because these services serve mainly car-heavy small villages. Loadings on these services outside of peaks are never really too high. 840 I believe only runs 2 hourly due to the resources available to run such a long distance service, while it runs 'just fine' on this frequency, the buses often become full during good weather weekends and school holidays. Additionally, a large proportion of the service does form part of an every 30 minute corridor from Leeds to Malton. I feel the issue was known of the driver availability, they will have recruited some more drivers to cover this but there have been instances since the reintroduction of the every 10 minute timetable where all scheduled journeys ran (or were last-minute canceled due to heavy traffic delays/vehicle availability)
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Sept 4, 2023 21:26:28 GMT 1
What has this got to do with anything?
Why would an operator win a tender just to then suggest the service shouldn’t exist at all?
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Post by dlspotter on Sept 4, 2023 21:33:25 GMT 1
Or a more radical solution would be to replace both the X98/9 with an hourly one way circular service from Wetherby via Collingham and East Keswick back to Wetherby with Linton not served at all. Wetherby is already served by the 7 from Leeds (it's probably about 15 minutes longer but it's a service) and Scarcroft could be served by diverting the 781 and 923. Scarcroft and Linton are really car villages in reality, you do see people using the bus from these areas to/from Leeds but it's not exactly a queue. Not great I know, with links to Leeds lost for the majority, but with struggling driver resources something like this needs to start happening, either that or reliability really takes a hit. Another example is Lightcliffe, does it need the 571 and 255, defo not so why not axe the 255 beyond Cleckheaton, would save a driver. It's probably going to take the same amount of time to reach Leeds going via Bradford from Scholes/Wyke, and the 255 as is it isn't all that reliable in reality so has probably lost a lot of custom anyway. The 571 could be amended so it serves Brighouse train station and links into trains to Leeds to satisfy Lightcliffe passengers, the rest of the 255 route into Halifax is already covered by the 548/9 with Leeds passengers able to change onto a 508 at Shibden, or the train at Halifax. Again not great to do this, but the current situation of never ending driver shortages won't change so reliability just suffers, and waiting 2 hours plus in Lightcliffe with it's lack of shelters just puts people right back in their car. I regularly take the 255 beyond Cleckheaton to Halifax and have never experienced an empty service. The only occasion I experienced a quiet service was at 1pm on a Friday on a journey from Halifax, not the busiest time of day for a bus. I have been on full 255s and many healthily loaded. It's a one-stop bus link from Halifax to Heckmondwike, Dewsbury, Mirfield and Wakefield via Cleckheaton. Not to mention, it provides a direct link from Bailiff Bridge to Halifax, which while being on the X63 corridor, is in Calderdale district. Also, since Arriva took over the 571, it interworks with the 255. Therefore, if you're 'saving a driver' by cutting the Halifax portion, the bus would have to dead-run over to Halifax, as well as allowing for driver changes where necessary.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Sept 4, 2023 21:39:02 GMT 1
Half the threads here are people complaining about service cuts, the other half are people demanding other services (that they don’t use) are cut
This forum is going downhill pretty quickly
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Post by dlspotter on Sept 4, 2023 21:44:03 GMT 1
I think the only place a 2 hourly frequency is acceptable is in a very rural area where the bus serves a load of small villages and then only ends up at a fairly small town at the end of it I think pretty much everything in West Yorkshire should be at least hourly While I agree 2hr frequencies would be unacceptable for a lot of people on a lot of routes, it is suitable for a good few West Yorks services that don't exactly serve the most "rural" areas, such as 22 Seacroft to Castleford, 174 Wakefield - Garforth - Wetherby, both of which serve more of the sidestreets and may be seen mostly as shopper's links. 2 hourly services are ok when complemented with nearby higher frequency services. Many more-frequent services however run 2 hourly on evenings and Sundays which is understandable with the lower demand however on evenings and Sundays there are occasionally no nearby alternatives to these low-frequency services which puts people off leisure travel at these times.
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Post by northerner on Sept 4, 2023 21:54:48 GMT 1
A route running every two hours? I'm gonna be real with you not a single soul on earth is ever gonna use that service The solution is to continue as normal, with better communication. A few cancellations is substantially better than a bus route being plummeted into a point of no return... Not sure that's fair, as there is examples of routes running 2 Hourly that do have an OK amount of passengers (Yorks 22/3 or 840 to Whitby for examples within Transdev) I'd say it depends on what the frequency is to start with over if you look at reducing (although communications need to better in general), in the case of Route 36 surely Transdev should of known how their driver situation was like before reintroducing the 10 Min frequency to route 36 & If they knew they'd be short then it's fair to say they are guilty of poor management/planning. 100% this. 36 every 10 minutes seems to be more of a vanity project than anything else, and as Harrogate suffer a lot of cancellations reverting to every 15 minutes would build in some resilience both in terms of driver and fleet availability as well as contingencies for on the day disruptions. The odd cancellation is always going to happen, but increasing services without having the correct number of drivers to deliver the timetable is irresponsible.
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Post by joshben on Sept 5, 2023 16:58:17 GMT 1
Or a more radical solution would be to replace both the X98/9 with an hourly one way circular service from Wetherby via Collingham and East Keswick back to Wetherby with Linton not served at all. Wetherby is already served by the 7 from Leeds (it's probably about 15 minutes longer but it's a service) and Scarcroft could be served by diverting the 781 and 923. Scarcroft and Linton are really car villages in reality, you do see people using the bus from these areas to/from Leeds but it's not exactly a queue. Not great I know, with links to Leeds lost for the majority, but with struggling driver resources something like this needs to start happening, either that or reliability really takes a hit. Another example is Lightcliffe, does it need the 571 and 255, defo not so why not axe the 255 beyond Cleckheaton, would save a driver. It's probably going to take the same amount of time to reach Leeds going via Bradford from Scholes/Wyke, and the 255 as is it isn't all that reliable in reality so has probably lost a lot of custom anyway. The 571 could be amended so it serves Brighouse train station and links into trains to Leeds to satisfy Lightcliffe passengers, the rest of the 255 route into Halifax is already covered by the 548/9 with Leeds passengers able to change onto a 508 at Shibden, or the train at Halifax. Again not great to do this, but the current situation of never ending driver shortages won't change so reliability just suffers, and waiting 2 hours plus in Lightcliffe with it's lack of shelters just puts people right back in their car. The 255 to Fax, as well as being a service for Scholes and Lightcliffe/Hipperholme is used as a positioning move for 571, axing the 255 from Cleckheaton would mean that the 571's costs may increase due to "dead milage".
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Post by deerfold on Sept 5, 2023 21:42:07 GMT 1
Or a more radical solution would be to replace both the X98/9 with an hourly one way circular service from Wetherby via Collingham and East Keswick back to Wetherby with Linton not served at all. Wetherby is already served by the 7 from Leeds (it's probably about 15 minutes longer but it's a service) and Scarcroft could be served by diverting the 781 and 923. Scarcroft and Linton are really car villages in reality, you do see people using the bus from these areas to/from Leeds but it's not exactly a queue. Not great I know, with links to Leeds lost for the majority, but with struggling driver resources something like this needs to start happening, either that or reliability really takes a hit. Another example is Lightcliffe, does it need the 571 and 255, defo not so why not axe the 255 beyond Cleckheaton, would save a driver. It's probably going to take the same amount of time to reach Leeds going via Bradford from Scholes/Wyke, and the 255 as is it isn't all that reliable in reality so has probably lost a lot of custom anyway. The 571 could be amended so it serves Brighouse train station and links into trains to Leeds to satisfy Lightcliffe passengers, the rest of the 255 route into Halifax is already covered by the 548/9 with Leeds passengers able to change onto a 508 at Shibden, or the train at Halifax. Again not great to do this, but the current situation of never ending driver shortages won't change so reliability just suffers, and waiting 2 hours plus in Lightcliffe with it's lack of shelters just puts people right back in their car. The 255 to Fax, as well as being a service for Scholes and Lightcliffe/Hipperholme is used as a positioning move for 571, axing the 255 from Cleckheaton would mean that the 571's costs may increase due to "dead milage". That was mentioned yesterday...
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Post by joseph on Sept 6, 2023 19:44:35 GMT 1
Dave Allen (controvertial but funny Irish comedian) once joked that London Transport should halve it's fare evasion loses by halving the fares, maybe it makes sense for companies struggling with cancellations through driver shortages to cut the rate of cancellations by withdrawing journeys.
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Post by smithy on Sept 7, 2023 18:39:43 GMT 1
Or a more radical solution would be to replace both the X98/9 with an hourly one way circular service from Wetherby via Collingham and East Keswick back to Wetherby with Linton not served at all. Wetherby is already served by the 7 from Leeds (it's probably about 15 minutes longer but it's a service) and Scarcroft could be served by diverting the 781 and 923. Scarcroft and Linton are really car villages in reality, you do see people using the bus from these areas to/from Leeds but it's not exactly a queue. Not great I know, with links to Leeds lost for the majority, but with struggling driver resources something like this needs to start happening, either that or reliability really takes a hit. Another example is Lightcliffe, does it need the 571 and 255, defo not so why not axe the 255 beyond Cleckheaton, would save a driver. It's probably going to take the same amount of time to reach Leeds going via Bradford from Scholes/Wyke, and the 255 as is it isn't all that reliable in reality so has probably lost a lot of custom anyway. The 571 could be amended so it serves Brighouse train station and links into trains to Leeds to satisfy Lightcliffe passengers, the rest of the 255 route into Halifax is already covered by the 548/9 with Leeds passengers able to change onto a 508 at Shibden, or the train at Halifax. Again not great to do this, but the current situation of never ending driver shortages won't change so reliability just suffers, and waiting 2 hours plus in Lightcliffe with it's lack of shelters just puts people right back in their car. But why should the Leeds and farnley end suffer if they cut off the 255 from these areas as instead of it taking a hour and 10 mins it's nearly taking 2 hours 30 if you go through Leeds for the 508 and if that's late even longer as I get to the derbyshire dales in just over 3 hours
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Post by SCH117X on Sept 8, 2023 19:01:42 GMT 1
Noticed the 36 cancellations might not be as bad as they seem. The 4pm from Ripon today did start only for 2774 to quickly expire so they listed that service as cancelled and also recorded it seprately cancelled as the 4.45pm from Harrogate.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2023 19:09:57 GMT 1
Cancellations looks like its only one or 2 bus drivers shifts at Harrogate, hardly a big deal, other companies like Arriva depots or First depots probably have more than that today or not the same amount.
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Post by dlspotter on Sept 9, 2023 0:35:07 GMT 1
I was on the 36 today and several services plagued by delays - all on the Ripon portion of the run. In the hours I was in Harrogate all Hgte terminating services ran mostly on time, with significant delays to Ripon starting services, usually getting cancelled at Harrogate with pax asked to join another service in Harrogate to continue to Leeds. Some Ripon originating services did continue to Leeds but usually with strong delays.
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joseph
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Post by joseph on Sept 9, 2023 5:53:24 GMT 1
I was on the 36 today and several services plagued by delays - all on the Ripon portion of the run. In the hours I was in Harrogate all Hgte terminating services ran mostly on time, with significant delays to Ripon starting services, usually getting cancelled at Harrogate with pax asked to join another service in Harrogate to continue to Leeds. Some Ripon originating services did continue to Leeds but usually with strong delays. This is another really good reason for splitting or cutting routes so they become more reliable. The 36 in defence of Lucy is a major nightmare at times with cancellations then free pass holders making the next journey run late as well if it's a nice day. I've had to wait as long as 50 minutes for one in the middle of nowhere once, I soon learned my lesson and now walk an additional half mile to a stop with a shelter. For a good few years now it's very common at school times for the 36 to run with big gaps should a journey be cancelled, especially in the afternoon towards Leeds. What's really needed, highlighted above, is for the 36 to be split in two so one side does not affect the other, tough what not if you're forced to change buses and don't like it, many people don't like standing around in excessive heat, cold, rain, snow etc for a bus that looked to be running but suddenly isn't. Yes there are trackers, but that's no good if you haven't got anywhere indoors to hang around, and besides, cancelled journeys throw plans out of the window which beyond doubt is no good for passenger confidence, they'll simply go all Uber from then on.
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Post by smithy on Sept 9, 2023 6:26:28 GMT 1
I was on the 36 today and several services plagued by delays - all on the Ripon portion of the run. In the hours I was in Harrogate all Hgte terminating services ran mostly on time, with significant delays to Ripon starting services, usually getting cancelled at Harrogate with pax asked to join another service in Harrogate to continue to Leeds. Some Ripon originating services did continue to Leeds but usually with strong delays. Easy solution transdev could split trip the ripon runs and do Leeds to Harrogate then Ripon on the same bus do what Stagecoach do on the express services
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Post by deerfold on Sept 9, 2023 7:43:08 GMT 1
I was on the 36 today and several services plagued by delays - all on the Ripon portion of the run. In the hours I was in Harrogate all Hgte terminating services ran mostly on time, with significant delays to Ripon starting services, usually getting cancelled at Harrogate with pax asked to join another service in Harrogate to continue to Leeds. Some Ripon originating services did continue to Leeds but usually with strong delays. Easy solution transdev could split trip the ripon runs and do Leeds to Harrogate then Ripon on the same bus do what Stagecoach do on the express services No idea what you're suggesting here.
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Post by smithy on Sept 9, 2023 11:29:03 GMT 1
Easy solution transdev could split trip the ripon runs and do Leeds to Harrogate then Ripon on the same bus do what Stagecoach do on the express services No idea what you're suggesting here. Split the ripon runs at Harrogate but use the same bus
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Post by WYBS on Sept 9, 2023 11:38:32 GMT 1
I think I would honestly focus the 36 on Harrogate - Leeds and run the Harrogate - Ripon service as a standard Harrogate Bus Company route.
Clearly the majority of profit (& trade) is between Harrogate and Leeds, so why let the less frequent/ less profitable side affect the other half?
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Sept 9, 2023 12:28:10 GMT 1
I think I would honestly focus the 36 on Harrogate - Leeds and run the Harrogate - Ripon service as a standard Harrogate Bus Company route. Clearly the majority of profit (& trade) is between Harrogate and Leeds, so why let the less frequent/ less profitable side affect the other half? I would say this too but a weird amount of people do the full length journey. I'm always quite impressed with the amount of people using it since there's not much inbetween any of the three major towns.
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Post by SCH117X on Sept 9, 2023 12:56:31 GMT 1
I was on the 36 today and several services plagued by delays - all on the Ripon portion of the run. In the hours I was in Harrogate all Hgte terminating services ran mostly on time, with significant delays to Ripon starting services, usually getting cancelled at Harrogate with pax asked to join another service in Harrogate to continue to Leeds. Some Ripon originating services did continue to Leeds but usually with strong delays. Looking at bustimes the 1355 from Ripon which was terminated 21 late but I am struggling to find any others; they all see to have contine from Harrogate upto 8 mins late. I can quite imagine if they chopped the 36 in half you would find another operator registering a X36 Leeds-Ripon to fill a gap that now existed. What they need to do to address the service is have a longer potential layover time for the buses working the shorts so that one can be used to plug the gap resulting from a late running Ripon and the late running service from Ripon continuing in the time slot of a short working, or alternatively increase the stand time for Ripons.
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Post by deerfold on Sept 9, 2023 16:27:53 GMT 1
No idea what you're suggesting here. Split the ripon runs at Harrogate but use the same bus Why? I'm struggling to see the benefit of doing that.
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Post by smithy on Sept 9, 2023 16:42:46 GMT 1
Do what stagecoach do with there x17 to Matlock from Barnsley same bus put is the Barnsley to Sheffield is a separate trip as they allways have a 15 stop in Sheffield interchange before the Sheffield matlock section
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Post by delenn on Sept 9, 2023 17:00:32 GMT 1
First tried that with the 100 in Essex. Didn't help one bit.
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