WYBS
Forum Member
Watch-o
Posts: 1,494
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Post by WYBS on Jul 15, 2022 21:45:41 GMT 1
I have seen this news floating about for a couple of weeks, but I'm not sure if there's any truth behind it. 'Local and regional bus fares are to cost no more than £2 from October'. If this news is correct then this can only be a great thing for the general public, for hopefully getting people out of cars, and reducing our environmental impact; but who is subsidising the private companies, and does the government have the right to demand what private companies can charge for a service? I assumed the latest proposed West Yorkshire price caps were only happening because all parties had agreed to it, rather than it being a forced issue. Without massive subsidy, how will premium routes like Coastliner, CityZap and the 36 possibly break even, let alone turn a profit, even if patronage doubles or triples? Your thoughts? www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bus-fares-cost-no-more-27442809.amp
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Post by dlspotter on Jul 15, 2022 23:35:28 GMT 1
I have seen this news floating about for a couple of weeks, but I'm not sure if there's any truth behind it. 'Local and regional bus fares are to cost no more than £2 from October'. If this news is correct then this can only be a great thing for the general public, for hopefully getting people out of cars, and reducing our environmental impact; but who is subsidising the private companies, and does the government have the right to demand what private companies can charge for a service? I assumed the latest proposed West Yorkshire price caps were only happening because all parties had agreed to it, rather than it being a forced issue. Without massive subsidy, how will premium routes like Coastliner, CityZap and the 36 possibly break even, let alone turn a profit, even if patronage doubles or triples? Your thoughts? www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bus-fares-cost-no-more-27442809.ampI believe it would possibly be similar to the coronavirus subsidy, and I'm not sure how that funding amount was decided either
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Post by deerfold on Jul 16, 2022 2:16:17 GMT 1
And it's only for 6 months.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jul 16, 2022 19:17:41 GMT 1
It would require legislation to make it compulsory for operators to join such a scheme, as the concessionary fares scheme has, and there is no indication that this is in the offing. There has been no discussion with the operators that I know of, at least that was the case on Wednesday when I discussed it with one of our directors, and there is a lot of cynicism about whether it will even happen. From reports this is a scheme from Number 10 and it is not entirely clear if the DfT know anything about it to have done any planning at all.
I don't know how far West Yorkshire have got with their local scheme, I think they were the most advanced of the authorities who have announced such schemes and the others made their announcements when WY did to now be left behind (bringing their plans forward), but I don't think Greater Manchester actually has agreements with the operators to participate in such a scheme or how the reimbursement will work so there is still a lot of uncertainty around these announcements right now (they may have some high level discussions that mean they have a level of confidence about the bigger companies, my contacts are largely with smaller operators more peripheral to the metropolitan areas, but there is no indication that there is a finalised scheme ready to go yet.
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Post by martinsfp on Jul 19, 2022 0:46:33 GMT 1
The Greater Manchester scheme is linked to franchising, which will go ahead very soon if Rotala's current appeal fails.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jul 19, 2022 6:55:55 GMT 1
The Greater Manchester scheme is linked to franchising, which will go ahead very soon if Rotala's current appeal fails. As I said, it was brought forward when West Yorkshire announced theirs so the intended implementation appears to now be before franchising would be rolled out - franchising is probably still around a year off at best if they want a smooth implementation of such a high-profile scheme. Additionally the franchising is planned to be done in phases so whilst it may have lined up with early phases it would still have required some co-operation from commercial operators in any case and there will always be some non-franchised cross-boundary services whose status and participation needs to be clarified to avoid a somewhat hard border (something London has struggled with in places where commercial operators coming in from neighbouring counties couldn't compete with or match the subsidised bus fare on their own but the local authority didn't assist as they weren't part of the franchise scheme)
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Post by martinsfp on Jul 19, 2022 20:12:25 GMT 1
Ah I missed it had been announced that they wanted to bring it forward. But I *think* before that it was intended to only apply to yellow-livery franchised services as they rolled out over the phased period. Certainly the easiest way to do it!
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Sept 1, 2022 17:06:48 GMT 1
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Post by steve440 on Sept 1, 2022 17:14:26 GMT 1
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Post by deerfold on Sept 1, 2022 17:53:51 GMT 1
She has pushed the policy since she was elected.
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Post by stephen01 on Sept 1, 2022 20:48:53 GMT 1
Anyone else find it coincidently that WY & GM have chosen the start date for Catch the Bus Month to launch it?
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Post by deerfold on Sept 1, 2022 20:58:51 GMT 1
Anyone else find it coincidently that WY & GM have chosen the start date for Catch the Bus Month to launch it? Seems an obvious date to choose. I hope there's plenty of publicity aimed at people who aren't currently using buses.
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Post by yorkslad on Sept 1, 2022 23:13:26 GMT 1
Anyone else find it coincidently that WY & GM have chosen the start date for Catch the Bus Month to launch it? I didn't know it was Catch The Bus Month - but next week the schools go back and it's the first full week after the Bank Holiday. Maybe it's both? :-)
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Post by mcbus123 on Sept 2, 2022 14:09:30 GMT 1
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Post by selbybus on Sept 3, 2022 10:19:30 GMT 1
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Post by SCH117X on Sept 3, 2022 21:13:25 GMT 1
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Sept 4, 2022 10:04:41 GMT 1
It will depend on the reimbursement mechanism but I suspect you are right about routes like the Coastliner, it is likely that routes like this will be kept out of the scheme by the operators if for no other reason than they couldn't cope with the likely overloading that might occur if this scheme is remotely as successful as everyone is telling us it will be even during a relatively quiet period as Jan-Mar. The government would probably be quite happy to see such routes take themselves out, the costs will stack up pretty quickly if you are reimbursing £120 per trip (20 passengers making a trip worth £8, which is what Leeds to York costs - there will probably be some generation factor in there so probably 25-30 passengers but that is easy to see on the full trip Leeds to Scarborough) 30-odd times a day 6 days a week (& almost that on Sundays) - in many urban areas 1 trip on the Coastliner would bring in as much reimbursement as an entire days bus working on a busy route, the maximum fare on our busiest city route is £2.20 except for a Saturday evening extension when it reaches £2.60 (you would probably need over 700 passengers per bus working on that level of fares to get to £120) and that is comparable to many large urban areas. The big concern would be over the confusion this voluntary participation could cause as it needs to be clearly communicated what is participating both from the government (& we all know how bad the DfT are in explaining things clearly), media reporting & the operators (& many of the big groups are also less than clear on this sort of communication) - I can see quite a few less than complimentary reporting or customer contacts about routes that aren't offering this and people being confused. There is also going to be an impact on running times due to people moving away from season ticket sales onto paying per journey just as operators are moving customers away from that as much as possible.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Sept 4, 2022 11:23:24 GMT 1
A complication would be how to take services out partially
For example Coastliner is already in the scheme within West Yorkshire, and when the national scheme starts, you could argue a local trip within York, or in the outskirts of Scarborough should be allowed for £2
But then you’ve got semi-local trips like Tadcaster to York, or Malton to Thornton le Dale, should they be £2
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Post by deerfold on Sept 4, 2022 11:29:39 GMT 1
I wonder how reimbursement is going to work for routes which have already gone to being £2 as part of the West Yorkshire or Manchester schemes. I'm guessing Central Government won't be spending anything towards those.
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Post by yorkslad on Sept 4, 2022 18:50:27 GMT 1
A complication would be how to take services out partially For example Coastliner is already in the scheme within West Yorkshire, and when the national scheme starts, you could argue a local trip within York, or in the outskirts of Scarborough should be allowed for £2 But then you’ve got semi-local trips like Tadcaster to York, or Malton to Thornton le Dale, should they be £2 Thinking sideways slightly, you could take the route out of the scheme but then say the West Yorkshire bit is in the West Yorkshire scheme, here's a special £2 ticket for Tadcaster to York, etc. lasting just the three months. That way the local benefit from the fare reductions but without it being "abused" by people travelling end-to-end.
The Oldies will be happy as they will still be able to get a seat - for free - for the whole route
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Sept 4, 2022 21:53:18 GMT 1
Suppose someone wants to travel from the first stop on a bus route to the first stop outside West Yorkshire. For example, route 36 from Leeds or route 28 from Pontefract to the first stop beyond the County boundary.
Could it be cheaper to buy a WY £2 single and a separate ticket to the final stop than to buy just 1 through ticket?
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Post by deerfold on Sept 4, 2022 22:01:51 GMT 1
Suppose someone wants to travel from the first stop on a bus route to the first stop outside West Yorkshire. For example, route 36 from Leeds or route 28 from Pontefract to the first stop beyond the County boundary. Could it be cheaper to buy a WY £2 single and a separate ticket to the final stop than to buy just 1 through ticket? At the moment on the 36, it's slightly cheaper to do this. It's £3.40 single within West Yorkshire and £1.60 to go another stop, or £5.50 to get a through ticket.
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Post by rhythmb on Sept 5, 2022 6:24:43 GMT 1
I overheard a conversation on the bus the other day saying if your journey is longer than 3 miles you'll be charged the normal bus fare, is that true or are ALL journeys capped at £2 regardless of the length?
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Sept 5, 2022 7:13:07 GMT 1
I overheard a conversation on the bus the other day saying if your journey is longer than 3 miles you'll be charged the normal bus fare, is that true or are ALL journeys capped at £2 regardless of the length? The simple answer is that we just don't know, I've heard at least 3 different versions of what the scheme will actually be, and since it was clear from the statement from the CPT that it doesn't appear if the DfT has spoken to most operators (let along agreed any principles with anyone) so until operators see some actual details on the funding & reimbursement we don't know how this will fly. If the DfT try to reimburse in the same way they recommend to do the concessionary fares then this will simply go nowhere except a few urban areas with relatively low fares. The important thing to remember in all this is that, since it hasn't passed through any statutory instrument, it is entirely voluntary participation so it is unlikely to include all operators and all routes whatever happens.
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Post by yorkslad on Sept 5, 2022 20:16:21 GMT 1
I overheard a conversation on the bus the other day saying if your journey is longer than 3 miles you'll be charged the normal bus fare, is that true or are ALL journeys capped at £2 regardless of the length? The simple answer is that we just don't know, I've heard at least 3 different versions of what the scheme will actually be, and since it was clear from the statement from the CPT that it doesn't appear if the DfT has spoken to most operators (let along agreed any principles with anyone) so until operators see some actual details on the funding & reimbursement we don't know how this will fly. If the DfT try to reimburse in the same way they recommend to do the concessionary fares then this will simply go nowhere except a few urban areas with relatively low fares. The important thing to remember in all this is that, since it hasn't passed through any statutory instrument, it is entirely voluntary participation so it is unlikely to include all operators and all routes whatever happens. If it's the West Yorkshire scheme (and presumably the Greater Manchester one, and the Liverpool one when it starts on the 18th) it's for the whole route, regardless of length. The DfT's three-month England-wide scheme next year, don't know. I'm waiting for one of the large operators to say that they won't be taking part, with it being voluntary.
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