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Post by dlspotter on Apr 28, 2023 20:04:56 GMT 1
Wakefield 1. 110 Leeds to Wakefield 2. 106 Wakefield to Hall Green Currently don't know the rest as I am not in Wakey that often. I'd expand this with 189 Wakefield Castleford 140/141 Pontefract Castleford Leeds 148/9 Wakefield Pontefract Knottingley and 496 Wakefield Hemsworth S Elmsall Upton
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Apr 28, 2023 20:17:45 GMT 1
I would add the 56 and 5 to this list.
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Apr 28, 2023 20:39:48 GMT 1
South Kirklees 1. 363/X63 Bradford to Huddersfield 2. 503 Halifax to Huddersfield 3. 370/1 Rawthorpe/Dalton to Lindley 4. 372 Lindley to Almondbury 5. 328 Bradley to Balmoral Avenue From my observations: 1. X63 2. 503 3. 328 4. 372 5. 324 The 370/371 has completely died off in the Rawthrope/Dalton direction. Seems to have declined after COVID. Haven’t seen a full load since 2021. That’s what happens when you dump people outside, during a driver shortage, reduced timetable, and poor waiting conditions. The 328 covers the most deprived, densely populated areas in Huddersfield. A lot of people within these areas completely rely on the bus as car ownership is lower than usual. 324 surprisingly well used. Considering the demographics of Netherton & Meltham. I believe the enjoyability of the route may be a factor behind the success. Who doesn’t love nyooming down bendy roads?
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Post by Username on Apr 28, 2023 21:18:40 GMT 1
I would add the 56 and 5 to this list. With Leeds it is sought of harder to come up with a list isn't it? A lot of bus routes seem to be well used even the ones they chop. I remember seeing 117 and 118 as well as the 48 with pretty decent loads.
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Post by tankomuncher on Nov 28, 2023 1:48:35 GMT 1
Service 5 during rush hours
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Post by joseph on Nov 28, 2023 7:42:51 GMT 1
It'll be interesting to see which route has lost the most custom, for me service 1/B has lost quite a bit since the timetable change back in September, I think a lot of people living within walking distance of town (e.g. bottom end of Beeston) have got fed up of waiting between 25 and 30 mins in town for a bus and decide to walk, same too on a morning when it's coming into town and sails past them full, I've noticed less and less at the stops it sails past.
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Nov 28, 2023 11:49:44 GMT 1
It'll be interesting to see which route has lost the most custom, for me service 1/B has lost quite a bit since the timetable change back in September, I think a lot of people living within walking distance of town (e.g. bottom end of Beeston) have got fed up of waiting between 25 and 30 mins in town for a bus and decide to walk, same too on a morning when it's coming into town and sails past them full, I've noticed less and less at the stops it sails past. My old list has also changed. I'm convinced the driver shortage has done more to damage bus usage than COVID
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Post by tankomuncher on Nov 28, 2023 19:23:09 GMT 1
I know this thread was last talked about in 2008 but I have found it and I wanted to state from what I see as the busiest bus services in West Yorkshire. Leeds: A number of them I would say probably ranking 1. X6 Leeds to Bradford FAST 2. 1/1A Leeds to Beeston 3. 110 Leeds to Wakefield 4. 51/52 Leeds to Morley 5. 38/39 Moor Allerton to Leeds Bradford 1. X6 Leeds to Bradford FAST 2. 662 Bradford to Keighley 3. 617/618 Allerton to Holmewood 4. 363/X63 Huddersfield to Bradford 5. 425 Bradford to Wakefield Calderdale 1. 503 Halifax to Huddersfield 2. 521/2/3 Halifax to Illingworth (Combined) 3. 576 Halifax to Bradford 4. Mixenden routes (excluding 524) 5. 548/9 Halifax to Nunnery Lane/Huddersfield South Kirklees 1. 363/X63 Bradford to Huddersfield 2. 503 Halifax to Huddersfield 3. 370/1 Rawthorpe/Dalton to Lindley 4. 372 Lindley to Almondbury 5. 328 Bradley to Balmoral Avenue North Kirklees 1. 229 Heckmondwike to Leeds (Huddersfield section not as busy) 2. 202/3 Dewsbury to Leeds (Huddersfield section not as busy) 3. 268 Heckmondwike to Wakefield (Bradford to Cleckheaton section isn't as busy) 4. 126 Wakefield to Dewsbury 5. 200/201 Heckmondwike to Leeds Wakefield 1. 110 Leeds to Wakefield 2. 106 Wakefield to Hall Green Currently don't know the rest as I am not in Wakey that often. I'd mention 163, 140/141 and 148/149 for Wakefield and Leeds
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Post by peteleeds on Nov 28, 2023 20:38:15 GMT 1
Since moving I've been surprised by how busy the 4s and 16s are between leeds and Seacroft. Would definitely benefit from a frequency increase once driver numbers allow
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Nov 28, 2023 21:26:54 GMT 1
My updated list for Huddersfield
1. X63 2. 503 3. 301/302 4. 328 5. 372
I have been genuinely shocked with the 301/302 over the past few months. It's the first local route (from my observations) that has managed to fill up a decker without the previous one being delayed or cancelled. It wasn't even filling up those crusty SN64 streetlites when my last list was posted.
The 372, has absolutely nosedived. It's actually wild to see how much the route has dropped off as well as how many people give up on it so easily. It seems people head straight for the bus station for the Denby's and Wakefield's, when there's a long wait or when the bus commonly acts up due to traffic from Lindley
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2023 22:22:06 GMT 1
My updated list for Huddersfield 1. X63 2. 503 3. 301/302 4. 328 5. 372 I have been genuinely shocked with the 301/302 over the past few months. It's the first local route (from my observations) that has managed to fill up a decker without the previous one being delayed or cancelled. It wasn't even filling up those crusty SN64 streetlites when my last list was posted. The 372, has absolutely nosedived. It's actually wild to see how much the route has dropped off as well as how many people give up on it so easily. It seems people head straight for the bus station for the Denby's and Wakefield's, when there's a long wait or when the bus commonly acts up due to traffic from Lindley The 328 is 50/50 - The Balmoral Ave side of the route I would say was quieter than the Holme Valleys the last time I visited Huddersfield a few weeks ago. I Agree over 301/2 although it should be expected as they've had the biggest frequency cut in Huddersfield (15 Mins Each/7-8 Mins combined to Every 30 Mins/15 Mins Combined) Greenhead College is due to expand over the next couple of years as well so it's likely they will get busier although hopefully some sort of frequency increase would of happened by then. Going by what i saw a few weeks ago my List for Huddersfield would be: 1. 503 2. X63 3. 202/3 4. 301/2 5. 328 Bradley 6. 310/4/6 7. 328 Balmoral Ave 8. 372 9. 229 10. Either 181/4/5 or 324
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Nov 28, 2023 23:55:48 GMT 1
My updated list for Huddersfield 1. X63 2. 503 3. 301/302 4. 328 5. 372 I have been genuinely shocked with the 301/302 over the past few months. It's the first local route (from my observations) that has managed to fill up a decker without the previous one being delayed or cancelled. It wasn't even filling up those crusty SN64 streetlites when my last list was posted. The 372, has absolutely nosedived. It's actually wild to see how much the route has dropped off as well as how many people give up on it so easily. It seems people head straight for the bus station for the Denby's and Wakefield's, when there's a long wait or when the bus commonly acts up due to traffic from Lindley The 328 is 50/50 - The Balmoral Ave side of the route I would say was quieter than the Holme Valleys the last time I visited Huddersfield a few weeks ago. I Agree over 301/2 although it should be expected as they've had the biggest frequency cut in Huddersfield (15 Mins Each/7-8 Mins combined to Every 30 Mins/15 Mins Combined) Greenhead College is due to expand over the next couple of years as well so it's likely they will get busier although hopefully some sort of frequency increase would of happened by then. Going by what i saw a few weeks ago my List for Huddersfield would be: 1. 503 2. X63 3. 202/3 4. 301/2 5. 328 Bradley 6. 310/4/6 7. 328 Balmoral Ave 8. 372 9. 229 10. Either 181/4/5 or 324 I remember the 301/302 being every 20 minutes each before the pandemic, but that was a good three years ago now. I agree with most of your list but the 180s are definitely too low. I don't class them as a combined frequency since they serve too many different areas with the terrain making it lengthy to walk to and from the different bus routes. I would say the 180s are on par or just below the Holmfirth's. Especially with the gentrification of Marsden and Slaithwaite. A surprising amount travel to eat and hang out (big up rumpus burger)
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Post by deerfold on Nov 29, 2023 10:15:26 GMT 1
The 328 is 50/50 - The Balmoral Ave side of the route I would say was quieter than the Holme Valleys the last time I visited Huddersfield a few weeks ago. I Agree over 301/2 although it should be expected as they've had the biggest frequency cut in Huddersfield (15 Mins Each/7-8 Mins combined to Every 30 Mins/15 Mins Combined) Greenhead College is due to expand over the next couple of years as well so it's likely they will get busier although hopefully some sort of frequency increase would of happened by then. Going by what i saw a few weeks ago my List for Huddersfield would be: 1. 503 2. X63 3. 202/3 4. 301/2 5. 328 Bradley 6. 310/4/6 7. 328 Balmoral Ave 8. 372 9. 229 10. Either 181/4/5 or 324 I remember the 301/302 being every 20 minutes each before the pandemic, but that was a good three years ago now. I agree with most of your list but the 180s are definitely too low. I don't class them as a combined frequency since they serve too many different areas with the terrain making it lengthy to walk to and from the different bus routes. I would say the 180s are on par or just below the Holmfirth's. Especially with the gentrification of Marsden and Slaithwaite. A surprising amount travel to eat and hang out (big up rumpus burger) Going back a bit further, there were 16 buses an hour on the 301/302/331/332. It does seem odd that a bus that's every 15 minutes during the day can't manage to run as late as 11pm.
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Post by lucyp on Nov 29, 2023 11:30:07 GMT 1
It's called sensible business practice. There is clearly sufficient trade to justify a service every 15 mins during the day, and insufficient business to justify a bus at 11pm.
You would do the same if you ran a business. If you ran a cafe that had a busy breakfast and lunch trade, but no trade after lunchtime, would you sit there day after day at 6pm, or would you close at 3pm?
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Post by mattb7tl on Nov 29, 2023 12:43:32 GMT 1
It's called sensible business practice. There is clearly sufficient trade to justify a service every 15 mins during the day, and insufficient business to justify a bus at 11pm. You would do the same if you ran a business. If you ran a cafe that had a busy breakfast and lunch trade, but no trade after lunchtime, would you sit there day after day at 6pm, or would you close at 3pm? Other companies reinvest their profits from services to run the struggling and quieter journeys. I don't think first does this at all expecting authorities to pay for each and every journey they don't want to run. Again, every first operation is well above any other company in profits, and yet we have worse services simply because their management has an outdated black and white view on bus travel. A view which is clearly failing because they do nothing but shrink and have poor relations with authorities.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2023 13:11:23 GMT 1
The 328 is 50/50 - The Balmoral Ave side of the route I would say was quieter than the Holme Valleys the last time I visited Huddersfield a few weeks ago. I Agree over 301/2 although it should be expected as they've had the biggest frequency cut in Huddersfield (15 Mins Each/7-8 Mins combined to Every 30 Mins/15 Mins Combined) Greenhead College is due to expand over the next couple of years as well so it's likely they will get busier although hopefully some sort of frequency increase would of happened by then. Going by what i saw a few weeks ago my List for Huddersfield would be: 1. 503 2. X63 3. 202/3 4. 301/2 5. 328 Bradley 6. 310/4/6 7. 328 Balmoral Ave 8. 372 9. 229 10. Either 181/4/5 or 324 I remember the 301/302 being every 20 minutes each before the pandemic, but that was a good three years ago now. I agree with most of your list but the 180s are definitely too low. I don't class them as a combined frequency since they serve too many different areas with the terrain making it lengthy to walk to and from the different bus routes. I would say the 180s are on par or just below the Holmfirth's. Especially with the gentrification of Marsden and Slaithwaite. A surprising amount travel to eat and hang out (big up rumpus burger) Prior to the first lockdown the 301/2 was still every 7/8 Mins as they never reduced it after they saw off Tiger & Streamline was about to start competition but since 2021 I think the most frequent they restored it to was Every 10 Mins but then reduced it again due to driver shortages. For the 180s V 310s I would say the Holme Valleys would be the busiest as they get more 'counter flow' passengers during the peak times compared to the mostly one direction flows on the 180s (helped by having more schools enroute, plus the Honley to Holmfirth section having no competition). Apart from the late night Fri/Sat journey the Holme Valleys have also escaped the frequency cuts that every other route in Huddersfield has had. After seeing the reductions in Firsts profits I'm not surprised at the lack of evening services, after all their aim is to make money. That's why it should be questioned (& thankfully is starting to be) if expecting to make a profit from a public service is the correct method.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2023 13:17:55 GMT 1
It's called sensible business practice. There is clearly sufficient trade to justify a service every 15 mins during the day, and insufficient business to justify a bus at 11pm. You would do the same if you ran a business. If you ran a cafe that had a busy breakfast and lunch trade, but no trade after lunchtime, would you sit there day after day at 6pm, or would you close at 3pm? Difference is with a Cafe, Not being able to have an evening meal doesn't affect being able to have lunch there. If people finish work at 10pm & there's no bus it can cause a chain reaction of decline - No bus after work means they probably won't catch the bus going to work at 1/2pm affecting daytime loadings & also means are less likely to think about using the bus for leisure at the weekends/days off.
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lucyp
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Post by lucyp on Nov 29, 2023 16:37:37 GMT 1
No, there is no difference. Business is business. If a business does not have sufficient customers to make it worthwhile operating at a certain time, then you don't operate it. No one is in business to lose money.
What has to happen is for there to be subsidies for essential bus services, and those exist, but they are insufficent to subsidise every loss making service. A choice has to be made as to which to subsidise and which are not justified. That is what happens.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2023 17:09:42 GMT 1
No, there is no difference. Business is business. If a business does not have sufficient customers to make it worthwhile operating at a certain time, then you don't operate it. No one is in business to lose money. What has to happen is for there to be subsidies for essential bus services, and those exist, but they are insufficent to subsidise every loss making service. A choice has to be made as to which to subsidise and which are not justified. That is what happens. Yes there is a difference, as I said before a Cafe you only need to visit once for a meal whilst with buses you tend to need them at least twice (going to & from work for example) As for losing money, it would be interesting to see the affect lack of evening services has on daytime passenger numbers - I Think taking a look at somewhere like East Cheshire or Staffordshire would give you the answer. Your correct over subsidies being needed, but you missed out that new ways to generate money to be used on public transport are needed/available (be that reducing profit going to private operators, charging car owners more, putting levys on car infrastructure, working with large employers or any other options)
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mattb7tl
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Post by mattb7tl on Nov 29, 2023 17:38:15 GMT 1
No, there is no difference. Business is business. If a business does not have sufficient customers to make it worthwhile operating at a certain time, then you don't operate it. No one is in business to lose money. What has to happen is for there to be subsidies for essential bus services, and those exist, but they are insufficent to subsidise every loss making service. A choice has to be made as to which to subsidise and which are not justified. That is what happens. We aren't on about struggling services were on about thriving ones that don't have an appropriate evening and night service because a certain company drains all the budget for journeys which should be subsidy free. The fact any journey is subsidised on the 503, 72, 576, and X63 is beyond unacceptable.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2023 17:44:46 GMT 1
No, there is no difference. Business is business. If a business does not have sufficient customers to make it worthwhile operating at a certain time, then you don't operate it. No one is in business to lose money. What has to happen is for there to be subsidies for essential bus services, and those exist, but they are insufficent to subsidise every loss making service. A choice has to be made as to which to subsidise and which are not justified. That is what happens. We aren't on about struggling services were on about thriving ones that don't have an appropriate evening and night service because a certain company drains all the budget for journeys which should be subsidy free. The fact any journey is subsidised on the 503, 72, 576, and X63 is beyond unacceptable. I'd allow some lenience on route 72, as it's BSIP Funded so is expected to become commercial in a few years time. A slight correction is also the X63 is fully commercial, it's the 363 that's part subsidised.
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Post by deerfold on Nov 29, 2023 18:06:15 GMT 1
Difference is with a Cafe, Not being able to have an evening meal doesn't affect being able to have lunch there. If people finish work at 10pm & there's no bus it can cause a chain reaction of decline - No bus after work means they probably won't catch the bus going to work at 1/2pm affecting daytime loadings & also means are less likely to think about using the bus for leisure at the weekends/days off. Similarly with people going out - if they're going to have to drive or get a taxi for a night out, they're not going to get the bus out, either.
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Post by deerfold on Nov 29, 2023 18:17:18 GMT 1
We aren't on about struggling services were on about thriving ones that don't have an appropriate evening and night service because a certain company drains all the budget for journeys which should be subsidy free. The fact any journey is subsidised on the 503, 72, 576, and X63 is beyond unacceptable. I'd allow some lenience on route 72, as it's BSIP Funded so is expected to become commercial in a few years time. A slight correction is also the X63 is fully commercial, it's the 363 that's part subsidised. The 363 is just the early/late/Sunday variation of the X63, though. It's amazing that Transdev can provide a 0020 service from Bradford to Keighley on a Friday/Saturday night, a 2340 from Leeds to Keighley, a 2340 (daily) service from Skipton to Keighley, 2315 from Leeds to Ripon, whilst First can't manage services between West Yorkshire's largest towns and cities in an evening without help (there is one early 66 service receives funding). (Bradford/Leeds to Keighley have strong competition from rail which the 503 and 363 don't). The last Halifax to Leeds service is now 2100 and the 508 is still receiving subsidies!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2023 18:36:05 GMT 1
I'd allow some lenience on route 72, as it's BSIP Funded so is expected to become commercial in a few years time. A slight correction is also the X63 is fully commercial, it's the 363 that's part subsidised. The 363 is just the early/late/Sunday variation of the X63, though. It's amazing that Transdev can provide a 0020 service from Bradford to Keighley on a Friday/Saturday night, a 2340 from Leeds to Keighley, a 2340 (daily) service from Skipton to Keighley, 2315 from Leeds to Ripon, whilst First can't manage services between West Yorkshire's largest towns and cities in an evening without help (there is one early 66 service receives funding). (Bradford/Leeds to Keighley have strong competition from rail which the 503 and 363 don't). The last Halifax to Leeds service is now 2100 and the 508 is still receiving subsidies! I Agree with you over the Transdev later journeys (although isn't the 23:40 Skipton to Keighley just to return the bus back to Keighley in service rather than a dead run?) You mentioned railway competition but that does affect the 503 & 363 baring in mind there's trains at 23:00 Huddersfield to Halifax & Bradford & 23:40 Bradford/23:54 Halifax to Huddersfield what also covers Brighouse (& Elland once it opens), as for 508 to be blunt it's a dying route so it's not surprising it doesn't run until 11pm, If they was to look at later buses between Halifax & Leeds I think 255 would be the better route to add them to.
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Post by Father Dougal McGuire on Nov 29, 2023 18:38:39 GMT 1
I think in the new proposals for the EP+ and franchising they're wanting core routes to operate between 0500 with final journeys departing between 2300 - 2359. Also given that Halifax & Todmorden is the 2nd most profitable after Leeds, I think a complete redrawing of all the timetables should be done and re-instate journeys that dissapeared over Covid (services after 2000 on the 541/542).
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