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Post by rossbailey on Sept 20, 2018 15:35:27 GMT 1
I actually think its got to a point now that First really need to look at splitting the 4's and 16's in city centre Monday to Saturday daytime, as both cross city routes are now very unreliable. Sunday evening have just got worse as well at the last timetable changes. Who's idea was it to run the last 16 to Pudsey out of Leeds 15 mins earlier than previously?
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Post by Craig on Sept 20, 2018 16:04:20 GMT 1
Or the 4 & 16 need to revert to 10 minute frequencies with the padding time removed (eg the 16 is now given 1h45 during the day) but instead increase the terminus stand time to 20 mins. Decreasing the frequency on these high demand services just exacerbates the reliability problem with bus bunching, overcrowding, waits of half an hour if one bus is cancelled, etc.
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39231
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Post by 39231 on Sept 20, 2018 16:10:37 GMT 1
why don't first put the 4 back to whinmoor and cut the running time on the 16 down
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Post by Craig on Sept 20, 2018 16:15:13 GMT 1
Significant cuts for First Bradford in October:
613/614 Buttershaw to Bradford section - frequency to be halved to hourly on each route. 623 off peak to Gilstead withdrawn. All buses will be 622 to Bingley only. 630 frequency reduced to every 30 mins. 633 West Bowling frequency halved to hourly as part of new 671 service. 633 will be Bradford to Shipley half-hourly. 686/687 Bradford to Fagley section - frequency to be halved to every 20 mins. 680 short journeys to BRI withdrawn, frequency to be hourly on whole route. Plus, as already mentioned, 670 to be taken over by First Leeds between Leeds and Greengates. Replacement service 671 to run hourly between West Bowling, Bradford and Thorpe Edge (terminating in a loop via Orchard Grove, Idlethorp Way, Parkland Drive). Through service to Leeds is therefore withdrawn.
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Post by FIYHANunDer on Sept 20, 2018 16:17:14 GMT 1
Or the 4 & 16 need to revert to 10 minute frequencies with the padding time removed (eg the 16 is now given 1h45 during the day) but instead increase the terminus stand time to 20 mins. Decreasing the frequency on these high demand services just exacerbates the reliability problem with bus bunching, overcrowding, waits of half an hour if one bus is cancelled, etc. This has been done in the past but it does not help the reliability of the service. Yes they may start off on time but if the timetable is unrealistic and people are late getting off the bus what is the point, and it doesn't help someone who doesn't catch it at the start point. Surely its better to be realistic and have some buses stood at timing points now and again, customers can then plan their journey with some degree of confidence. The padding is there because Leeds is so unpredictable and congested, one issue at Armley Gyratory will affect Leeds City Centre, or a delivery driver parked in a bus stop will clog up Boar Lane, hopefully the work being undertaken by Connecting Leeds will alleviate the congestion issues and journey times can be reduced. Until then, if a journey takes 45 minutes whats the point scheduling it for 35 just to make it look better??
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Sept 20, 2018 20:18:35 GMT 1
Significant cuts for First Bradford in October: 613/614 Buttershaw to Bradford section - frequency to be halved to hourly on each route. 623 off peak to Gilstead withdrawn. All buses will be 622 to Bingley only. 630 frequency reduced to every 30 mins. 633 West Bowling frequency halved to hourly as part of new 671 service. 633 will be Bradford to Shipley half-hourly. 686/687 Bradford to Fagley section - frequency to be halved to every 20 mins. 680 short journeys to BRI withdrawn, frequency to be hourly on whole route. Plus, as already mentioned, 670 to be taken over by First Leeds between Leeds and Greengates. Replacement service 671 to run hourly between West Bowling, Bradford and Thorpe Edge (terminating in a loop via Orchard Grove, Idlethorp Way, Parkland Drive). Through service to Leeds is therefore withdrawn. Quite a lot of cuts there. The economic situation in Bradford can’t help, the decimation of the city centre, the reduction in university students, the demographics, the lack of nightlife, the heavy use of taxis, the ridiculous traffic congestion and hence reliability caused by heavy car usage and the unique style of driving, the list goes on. The routes going down to hourly are particularly heavy reductions.
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kendall17
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Justice for the 96!
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Post by kendall17 on Sept 20, 2018 21:30:59 GMT 1
Or the 4 & 16 need to revert to 10 minute frequencies with the padding time removed (eg the 16 is now given 1h45 during the day) but instead increase the terminus stand time to 20 mins. Decreasing the frequency on these high demand services just exacerbates the reliability problem with bus bunching, overcrowding, waits of half an hour if one bus is cancelled, etc. This has been done in the past but it does not help the reliability of the service. Yes they may start off on time but if the timetable is unrealistic and people are late getting off the bus what is the point, and it doesn't help someone who doesn't catch it at the start point. Surely its better to be realistic and have some buses stood at timing points now and again, customers can then plan their journey with some degree of confidence. The padding is there because Leeds is so unpredictable and congested, one issue at Armley Gyratory will affect Leeds City Centre, or a delivery driver parked in a bus stop will clog up Boar Lane, hopefully the work being undertaken by Connecting Leeds will alleviate the congestion issues and journey times can be reduced. Until then, if a journey takes 45 minutes whats the point scheduling it for 35 just to make it look better?? Agreed. The 56 had timing points removed and built padding into the remaining points and it works great, despite it being frustrating from a passenger. Only downside is time between the points are similar on all journies.
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Post by Dom on Sept 20, 2018 22:46:19 GMT 1
This has been done in the past but it does not help the reliability of the service. Yes they may start off on time but if the timetable is unrealistic and people are late getting off the bus what is the point, and it doesn't help someone who doesn't catch it at the start point. Surely its better to be realistic and have some buses stood at timing points now and again, customers can then plan their journey with some degree of confidence. The padding is there because Leeds is so unpredictable and congested, one issue at Armley Gyratory will affect Leeds City Centre, or a delivery driver parked in a bus stop will clog up Boar Lane, hopefully the work being undertaken by Connecting Leeds will alleviate the congestion issues and journey times can be reduced. Until then, if a journey takes 45 minutes whats the point scheduling it for 35 just to make it look better?? Agreed. The 56 had timing points removed and built padding into the remaining points and it works great, despite it being frustrating from a passenger. Only downside is time between the points are similar on all journies. 56s are a lot better now they have put in more time, and took out the timing points. Less bunching together now, and hopefully when the X56 gets introduced, it’ll take a bit of pressure off at the peak
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2018 23:15:16 GMT 1
This has been done in the past but it does not help the reliability of the service. Yes they may start off on time but if the timetable is unrealistic and people are late getting off the bus what is the point, and it doesn't help someone who doesn't catch it at the start point. Surely its better to be realistic and have some buses stood at timing points now and again, customers can then plan their journey with some degree of confidence. The padding is there because Leeds is so unpredictable and congested, one issue at Armley Gyratory will affect Leeds City Centre, or a delivery driver parked in a bus stop will clog up Boar Lane, hopefully the work being undertaken by Connecting Leeds will alleviate the congestion issues and journey times can be reduced. Until then, if a journey takes 45 minutes whats the point scheduling it for 35 just to make it look better?? Agreed. The 56 had timing points removed and built padding into the remaining points and it works great, despite it being frustrating from a passenger. Only downside is time between the points are similar on all journies. The other problem in Leeds is space to stand buses if we split them, I think there is probably a good halfway solution in that the 16 has a lot of traffic as far as the hospital and city in both directions so perhaps Pudsey to St James’ where there I some stand space and a Whinmore to King Street providing an overlap but a more manageable service. The 4 is not bad but suffers from very poor recovery time provision, agreed Seacroft is limited in space terms but the 4 and 16 could swap terminals to aid that and provide more recovery time at Whinmore and Pudsey. The decrease in frequency on the 16’s has led to heavy overcrowding even outside peaks, evenings can be particularly bad especially when a single deck turns up as it did several weeks ago at the station, full and standing and nobody gets on, surely decimating customer perceptions that things are supposed to be improving. What hasn’t helped on 16’s has been 2 frankly disastrous timetable changes taking time out firstly then putting it back in, but decreasing frequencies to do so. The 56 has improved greatly but still has issues the evening peak and into main evening suffers from late running due to loadings and more routes suffer this as well, Leeds is moving to a 24 hour city and our transport needs to catch up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2018 23:23:11 GMT 1
I suspect a large pile of money has come from the developers, the hope being by the time the money runs out it will have built up enough patronage to replace it if not then it’ll go the same way the frequencies on routes like the 16 etc have down! Incorrect, fully commercial. Is this forum just for slating operators? 16 frequency result of ever increasing congestion, same amount of buses taking longer to get round. Needs to be more action with LCC pumping more and more buses into the cycle slowing journeys down isn't the answer. Road changes needed. Firstly may I state I have not “slated the operator” it is merely an observation if there is a huge pot of cash at the end of the rainbow the a service like the 16 which is at best busting at the seams at most times of the day gets a decreased frequency rather than extra bus in the cycle. In the current climate the commencement of a large scale new route network centred on a new development would and has in the past, been pump primed with Section 106 funding which is usually agreed with councils at the time planning permissions are granted. I’d find it strange no such funding has been agreed on the Thorpe Park development.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Sept 20, 2018 23:38:52 GMT 1
I agree, I’d find it very odd if the new Thorpe Park services were commercial. It would be the biggest commercial risk First have taken in 20 years. I would have expected it to be part or fully funded by the developer.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 1:26:18 GMT 1
If/when the Leeds City brand starts on the 4/16 routes with new vehicles,it might already be in the planning that extra buses will be added to service 16,restoring the 10min frequency (or if all the "Connecting Leeds" plans work & reduces traffic to allow the 10min frequeny without needing extra vehicles)
Another option,seen as they want to speed up journey times would be to introduce X56 all day (about 20min frequency M-Sat) Non-Stop along York Rd to Killingbeck roundabout,then up York Rd to Seacroft & current route 16 to Whinmoor with 16 terminating in Seacroft. Whinmoor plus Seacroft gets a faster service to Leeds,16 could have more layover added in Seacroft.
The new Thorpe Park services,if indeed they are commercial are a big risk for First. I Know theres new housing to be built but if they dont drive wouldnt most use the new Rail Station also being built there? Without any sort of funding i`m not sure it will be long until the Sunday service is reduced to at least Every 20 Mins. Another surprise for me was also that X26/7 being run by DDs,as i thought it would of been a better guess that 19/A get deckers & X26/7 get SDs,at least until passenger numbers started to build up.
Also do First have any sort of deal with Thorpe Park or Exculsitivy with them,or if the services did indeed become a success would it be possible for Arriva to also divert 163/6 to serve the area as well?
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Post by twansport on Sept 21, 2018 6:50:27 GMT 1
My suggestion for 16 is:
Pudsey-Armley then straight into Leeds then on to St James. Armley (terminate in Cross Lane)-Leeds then to St James non stop then Whinmoor.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Sept 21, 2018 7:27:50 GMT 1
There is also the problem of overlapping services increasing bus movements in the city centre, both in terms of congestion on Boar Lane, The Headrow etc, and also finding Bus stops to use.
It wouldn’t be possible for every east service to terminate in the west of the city centre and vice versa.
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Post by Bradford Traveller on Sept 21, 2018 16:44:08 GMT 1
Re: 613 (614) via Easby Road. There have been steps in the past to encourage passengers to use these routes (and 610) to Great Horton rather than the 576 but passengers prefer the latter.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Sept 21, 2018 18:23:52 GMT 1
Talking about frequency reductions, when did they reduce the frequency on the 72? Although it is still pretty much every 10 mins, there are now various gaps of every 15 mins at random throughout the day.
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Post by Bradford Traveller on Sept 21, 2018 23:06:12 GMT 1
Talking about frequency reductions, when did they reduce the frequency on the 72? Although it is still pretty much every 10 mins, there are now various gaps of every 15 mins at random throughout the day. Ah yes did notice that, since last timetable change I think. Something to do with running time varying throughout the day.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Sept 21, 2018 23:17:45 GMT 1
Significant cuts for First Bradford in October: 613/614 Buttershaw to Bradford section - frequency to be halved to hourly on each route. 623 off peak to Gilstead withdrawn. All buses will be 622 to Bingley only. 630 frequency reduced to every 30 mins. 633 West Bowling frequency halved to hourly as part of new 671 service. 633 will be Bradford to Shipley half-hourly. 686/687 Bradford to Fagley section - frequency to be halved to every 20 mins. 680 short journeys to BRI withdrawn, frequency to be hourly on whole route. Plus, as already mentioned, 670 to be taken over by First Leeds between Leeds and Greengates. Replacement service 671 to run hourly between West Bowling, Bradford and Thorpe Edge (terminating in a loop via Orchard Grove, Idlethorp Way, Parkland Drive). Through service to Leeds is therefore withdrawn. By my rough calculations that looks to be a loss of about 11 buses, which is about 8% of the daytime PVR 613/614 probably minus 2 622/623 will be minus 1 630, I'm guessing will interwork with the 633, and overall will be minus 2 670 will be minus 3 686/687 probably minus 2
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Post by Bradford Traveller on Sept 22, 2018 7:58:21 GMT 1
Re: Bradford PVR Bradford will be running 72 (with 576 going back to Halifax) - not sure of the PVR, but the 72 is more
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Post by Father Dougal McGuire on Sept 22, 2018 9:39:40 GMT 1
The current PVR on standard boards for the 72 is 15 buses (15 StreetDecks) then there are 4 late run out buses in the afternoon for the extra peak buses. Partly the reason why sometimes it turns out single decks, older doubles, eviros and what not...
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Sept 22, 2018 10:26:08 GMT 1
And Bradford run 6 boards on the 576, with one extra in the afternoon peak. Halifax currently run 4.
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Post by northerner on Sept 23, 2018 18:40:28 GMT 1
Significant cuts for First Bradford in October: 613/614 Buttershaw to Bradford section - frequency to be halved to hourly on each route. 623 off peak to Gilstead withdrawn. All buses will be 622 to Bingley only. 630 frequency reduced to every 30 mins. 633 West Bowling frequency halved to hourly as part of new 671 service. 633 will be Bradford to Shipley half-hourly. 686/687 Bradford to Fagley section - frequency to be halved to every 20 mins. 680 short journeys to BRI withdrawn, frequency to be hourly on whole route. Plus, as already mentioned, 670 to be taken over by First Leeds between Leeds and Greengates. Replacement service 671 to run hourly between West Bowling, Bradford and Thorpe Edge (terminating in a loop via Orchard Grove, Idlethorp Way, Parkland Drive). Through service to Leeds is therefore withdrawn. Quite a lot of cuts there. The economic situation in Bradford can’t help, the decimation of the city centre, the reduction in university students, the demographics, the lack of nightlife, the heavy use of taxis, the ridiculous traffic congestion and hence reliability caused by heavy car usage and the unique style of driving, the list goes on. The routes going down to hourly are particularly heavy reductions. All very true, but First also have to accept some responsibility for a reduction in passenger numbers. The Bradford depot doesn't appear competent enough to run a decent service, they have quite an elderly fleet which looks uncared for, most of the drivers are rude and the depot seems to be permanently understaffed in that cancellations are a daily occurrence. The fares are a bit on the high side too, so it's no wonder there's a heavy reliance on taxis. Compare this to Transdev's 662 or Arriva's 268 and First lag way behind in their offering
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Post by Bradford Traveller on Sept 23, 2018 20:47:41 GMT 1
Transdev Keighley have reasonable fares, but have cut back a few routes recently. The evening service on 67 is virtually nonexistent with the last bus out at a rather early 21:00 despite new housing in Denholme and the last 662 out at 22:25. The Haworth routes are hourly, so planning an evening there is impossible. Arriva have some nice buses but I seem to remember Sunday buses from Dewsbury to Bradford are at about the same time, with the 253 finishing early.
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Post by Bradford Traveller on Sept 23, 2018 20:56:14 GMT 1
Re: 613 (614) via Easby Road. There have been steps in the past to encourage passengers to use these routes (and 610) to Great Horton rather than the 576 but passengers prefer the latter. It's not long ago that the 610/612(now 614)/613/old 614 were each half-hourly
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Post by Bradford Traveller on Sept 23, 2018 21:00:53 GMT 1
Re: Bradford PVR Bradford will be running 72 (with 576 going back to Halifax) - not sure of the PVR, but the 72 is more So probably roughly about the same amount of work at Bradford depot.
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