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Post by jimobasa on Feb 17, 2018 6:05:51 GMT 1
Each station on the National Rail network is part of a "group". A season ticket valid to one station in the group is valid at/to all the other stations in that group. Is there any way to see a list of all stations in the Leeds group? I can't find anything online. I hear that a season ticket to Leeds is also valid for a journey to Sheffield. How is the average passenger supposed to know that. A person with a Doncaster-Leeds season ticket wanting a trip to Sheffield would most likely buy an additional (unnecessary) ticket at Leeds to go on to Sheffield. The way season tickets are marketed in this country is rather disgraceful as there in no indication either online or at the point of sale that a season ticket from A to B may also be valid to/from C and therefore fully valid for a journey from B to C without the need for an additional ticket. Can anyone recommend an authoritative National Rail forum that is NOT www.railforums.co.uk
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Post by deerfold on Feb 17, 2018 10:31:27 GMT 1
No.
There are station groups, but most stations are not in one.
There is no Leeds stations group.
The is a Manchester stations group.
I've always found the site you mention very useful.
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Post by stevieinselby on Feb 17, 2018 12:31:03 GMT 1
Each station on the National Rail network is part of a "group". A season ticket valid to one station in the group is valid at/to all the other stations in that group. Is there any way to see a list of all stations in the Leeds group? I can't find anything online. I hear that a season ticket to Leeds is also valid for a journey to Sheffield. How is the average passenger supposed to know that. A person with a Doncaster-Leeds season ticket wanting a trip to Sheffield would most likely buy an additional (unnecessary) ticket at Leeds to go on to Sheffield. The way season tickets are marketed in this country is rather disgraceful as there in no indication either online or at the point of sale that a season ticket from A to B may also be valid to/from C and therefore fully valid for a journey from B to C without the need for an additional ticket. Can anyone recommend an authoritative National Rail forum that is NOT www.railforums.co.uk one or more very weird admins on that site. It is not true that all stations are in a group. From a fares point of view, there is no such thing as a Leeds group. Some towns and cities that have several stations serving the centre do have groups, eg Manchester Stations covers Piccadilly, Victoria and Oxford Road, meaning that you buy a ticket to Manchester that allows you to travel to any one of them – but where there is only one main station, you won't have a group. You can tell whether it's a group because the ticket would say "Leeds Stations" rather than just "Leeds". A season ticket is valid at any point on a permitted route between the two stations. So if you have a Doncaster to Leeds season ticket, you can also use it to travel from Doncaster to Wakefield, for example. You can get all the details of what is a permitted route between two stations from data.atoc.org/routeing-guideFrom this, the only permitted route between Doncaster and Leeds is the direct route via Wakefield. So it would not be valid via Sheffield. (The exception to this is that sometimes you can get a ticket that is more expensive than the regular "Any permitted" ticket but allows you to travel on a specified route that is not normally allowed. So if you could buy a ticket from Doncaster to Leeds that was routed "via Sheffield" then this would allow you to make journeys to/from Sheffield as well. But as far as I can see, there isn't such a ticket available.
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Post by jimobasa on Feb 17, 2018 14:51:48 GMT 1
So if there is no Leeds group, why is this entry in the pink pages Leeds. Leeds Group Routeing Point Member
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Post by stevieinselby on Feb 17, 2018 16:37:34 GMT 1
So if there is no Leeds group, why is this entry in the pink pages Leeds. Leeds Group Routeing Point Member That's a routeing group, which is different from a fares group (as if things weren't confusing enough, yes there are two different types of groups). Normally, when working out a permitted route, you are not allowed to double-back on yourself (ie, you are not allowed to go through the same station twice). If you were working out a route from Hull to Newcastle, one of the possible map combinations is HM+MN. This would, in theory, allow you to travel from Hull to Leeds (on map HM), and then from Leeds to York and on to Newcastle (on map MN). But assuming that you were using the obvious TPX and TPX/XC routes, that would mean you were doubling back between Micklefield and Leeds, so it would not be allowed *. That's not an ideal situation, because we would want to allow people to make that journey via Leeds rather than restricting them to via Doncaster or Selby—York direct. So those stations are put into a routeing group, which means that you are allowed to double-back within that group if your start and end points are outside the group, and so you can make the journey via Leeds. But you can buy tickets to individual and specific stations within that routeing group – if you buy a ticket to Leeds it will say Leeds and if you buy a ticket to Micklefield it will say Micklefield, and the two are not interchangeable – you can't buy a ticket to Leeds Group or Leeds Stations. * In case you're wondering how it is possible that an invalid route could be shown on the maps, here's an example. Map HM covers Hull to Manchester, and map MN covers Manchester to Newcastle. So could you travel from Hull all the way to Manchester on one map and then all way from Manchester to Newcastle on the other? No, because you would be doubling back all the way from Leeds to Manchester. There are about 350 maps, which sounds like a lot, but between them they have to cover all combinations of routes between over 350 routeing points, which is well over 100,000 possible routes, so of necessity the maps will have to include some dead ends and blind alleys that aren't actually valid for any one journey ... which is why "no doubling back" is explicitly listed as a rule.
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Post by adam on Feb 17, 2018 16:47:33 GMT 1
A rail season ticket (excluding PTE products) is valid between the 2 Stations printed on it and any short journeys between as has been said above on any of the valid routes. For example a Sheffield to Leeds season routed any permitted would be valid via Doncaster, via Barnsley, via Moorthorpe or on the XC Express. If you got one routed not via Doncaster you couldn’t use the first route which is via Doncaster but could use the last 3 above. If you held the any permitted you could do a journey Mexborough to Fitzwilliam via Doncaster but not a mexborough to Cross Gates as it’s beyond your ticket validity
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Post by Burnside on Feb 18, 2018 14:47:30 GMT 1
Grouped stations will show as the ticket's origin or destination STNS after the place name, e.g Manchester Stns, Wakefield Stns.
This means the ticket is valid via any permitted route to or from any station within that group. So, a ticket from Leeds to Bradford would be valid to either Forster Square via Shipley or Interchange via New Pudsey, while a ticket from Ilkley to Bradford could only be used to Forster Square as the ticket is routed 'NOT VIA LEEDS' as there is no valid route to the Interchange avoiding Leeds.
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