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Post by neukit on Jan 23, 2018 0:48:11 GMT 1
Just going back to the point about free buses, and Reliance talking about releasing updates when the situation is 'clear' whilst running free buses themselves. Have they both submitted short notice registrations to the TC and are waiting on whose is accepted? Would either company have to run another 56 days of free buses or wait it out if the registration was turned down? The TC doesn't choose. There is no minimum requirement regarding the length of time a free 'non-registered' service must run. I imagine most of the operators will have been making their judgements without always knowing what others will choose to do. |
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jc
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Post by jc on Jan 23, 2018 1:59:26 GMT 1
Just to clarify I was referring to how ludicrous running 56 days of free buses would be for anyone, I appreciate there are various laws surrounding anti-competitive behaviour that no-one would want to deliberately flout.
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jan 23, 2018 9:37:36 GMT 1
Just going back to the point about free buses, and Reliance talking about releasing updates when the situation is 'clear' whilst running free buses themselves. Have they both submitted short notice registrations to the TC and are waiting on whose is accepted? Would either company have to run another 56 days of free buses or wait it out if the registration was turned down? The TC doesn't choose. There is no minimum requirement regarding the length of time a free 'non-registered' service must run. I imagine most of the operators will have been making their judgements without always knowing what others will choose to do. The Licensing Office & the TC will tend to approve the first registration to arrive under the short notice as long as there is a clear difference, in a sudden collapse like this it is likely that both operators will have submitted on the same day (& given the geographical relative proximity to the Licensing Office in Leeds and that there are two operators it was probably delivered by hand on Monday so you don't even have the vagaries of the Post Office) so I would not be surprised to have both applications approved under short notice in this case. I have experienced having short notice applications from two operators being approved together but I also know of circumstances where one was refused (though that is normally when an operator has withdrawn a service not collapsed meaning there is more thinking/planning time so there may well have been a more significant difference between the submission dates). Free services can run for as long as you like but someone has to pay for the running costs I can't see Transdev being prepared to take that hit for two months on service requiring that level of resource and running costs, let alone a small family owned business like Reliance, so if one is refused under short notice I would not be surprised to see the submission withdrawn as the gap in service would leave you starting from nothing again. |
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Post by SCH117X on Jan 23, 2018 14:06:45 GMT 1
This could turn nasty; not quite sure what Reliance are intending but it has all the makings of Pennine v Transdev and we all know what happened there. Have seen a tweet from a third party in the style of a Connexions anti Transdev one promoting the use of Reliances 30/30X between York and Easingwold and changing to Reliances 31X onto Helmsley (seems to ignore the wait neccessary at Easingwold and the lengthened journey time for through passengers). If Reliance persist would not be surprised if Transdev increased the frequency of the 31X between York and Easingwold.
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Post by ajw11239 on Jan 23, 2018 16:03:01 GMT 1
I’d like to think Reliance weren’t challenged and a whole “bus war” emerged out of this - Stephenson’s has already provided proof that these small bus companies are already in quite a fragile position.
Reliance have a nice fleet, nice drivers and I think they’ve always done fine because they’ve always been good at what they do, and they’ve never really strayed into any of the big operators’ territory, so in turn have been left alone. But who knows what will happen long term - the dust hasn’t settled yet. For example Transdev have taken on a handful of new stuff in York recently but if the routes are kept long term, the old ex-withdrawn B10s and darts aren’t going to last a long time and it’ll need some investment.
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Post by stevieinselby on Jan 23, 2018 17:25:44 GMT 1
I expect Reliance made their initial decision to run the service before they knew Transdev were going to take on the whole route. But it does seem odd that they have continued running it beyond the initial commitment to one day.
I don't have a feel for how well used the Reliance services are in comparison to the 31X, but I would hope that, in terms of quality of service and value for money, they would be in a stronger position to fight a bus war than Pennine were. But there should be scope for both operators to run side-by-side.
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Post by SCH117X on Jan 23, 2018 19:28:54 GMT 1
For example Transdev have taken on a handful of new stuff in York recently but if the routes are kept long term, the old ex-withdrawn B10s and darts aren’t going to last a long time and it’ll need some investment. There will be upto eight (almost) six year old Versas spare from Harrogate shortly, unless they are going off-lease. I don't have a feel for how well used the Reliance services are in comparison to the 31X, but I would hope that, in terms of quality of service and value for money, they would be in a stronger position to fight a bus war than Pennine were. But there should be scope for both operators to run side-by-side. I struggle to imagine Easingwold-Helmsley is profitable much beyond marginal so having a battle over it seems pretty silly. PB2008079/1 Registered (Short notice) JOHN HUNTER DUFF & GARY NEWBY Route: Easingwold to Kirbymoorside Service number: 31 (31X) Service type: Normal Stopping Effective date: 22 Jan 2018 PB0001873/77 Registered (Short notice) YORKSHIRE COASTLINER LTD Route: York, Exhibition Square/York College to Easingwold Market Place/Hemsley Market Place or Kirbymoorside, Market Place Service number: 31 (31X) Service type: Hail & Ride, Normal Stopping Effective date: 22 Jan 2018 PB0001873/76 Registered (Short notice) YORKSHIRE COASTLINER LTD Route: York, Exhibition Square to Easingwold, Market Pl Service number: 29 (29A) Service type: Hail & Ride, Normal Stopping Effective date: 22 Jan 2018 Transdev have obviously the upper hand south from Easingwold with the 31X as only the 5 or 6 30Xs worked by Reliance as quick between Easingwold and York but I suppose at hourly interval the slower Reliance services will be attractive to some through the convenience of the time of the journey. NB Is one or other of registrations wrong - Normal stopping v Hail & Ride? |
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Post by stevieinselby on Jan 23, 2018 22:25:07 GMT 1
Transdev have obviously the upper hand south from Easingwold with the 31X as only the 5 or 6 30Xs worked by Reliance as quick between Easingwold and York but I suppose at hourly interval the slower Reliance services will be attractive to some through the convenience of the time of the journey. I wouldn't be so sure. Reliance run two buses an hour to Transdev's one, so although they are slightly slower, there are twice as many choices. Reliance run (slightly) later into the evening than the 31X, and they run an hourly Sunday service all year round compared with Stephenson's offer of 3 journeys a day during the summer only. When Stephensons launched the 41 back in 2010 to run an hourly service in direct competition with the 40, it lasted only a few months before it was pulled. Reliance appear to have a good reputation, running decent buses and having steadily built up the service over a number of years. Transdev will really have their work cut out if they think they can march in and steal the corridor from an established operator here. There's no reason why the companies can't continue in tandem, but if only one operator remains then I wouldn't expect it to be Transdev. I would imagine that Reliance's dream scenario is that Transdev pull out of the 31X altogether, and they run it as a self-contained single-vehicle route between Easingwold and Helmsley only, connecting with their buses on to York. Of course, they would need to tweak their 30/30X timetables to optimise them for that connection, but there's no reason why that couldn't work. |
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Post by martinjwdton on Jan 23, 2018 22:29:23 GMT 1
We have been operating the 181 york - Castle Howard-malton yesterday and today since Stephensons shut down.
We’ve done this without subsidy until Nycc could sort out tenders. However, they aren’t now doing this until Monday and we can’t continue operating at a loss until the successful bidder takes over then (whoever that may be),so unfortunately there won’t be any service running until then I’m afraid as we can’t sustain the losses until then.
Sorry - but we have been in discussions with Nycc all day about this.
If you live in a village along the route please speak to your MP as this is not what should be happening.
We are very sorry we can’t continue- hopefully we’ll see you again next week if we are the successful bidder !
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Post by SCH117X on Jan 23, 2018 22:30:01 GMT 1
From Connexions twitter
We've been operating the 181 without subsidy for 2 days in the hope nycc would find it for longer. Despite discussions this hasn't Happened, so we won't be operating tomorrow. @northyorkscc are putting a tender out commencing Monday - so will operate from then
Is the final comment a presumption?
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Post by martinjwdton on Jan 23, 2018 22:30:03 GMT 1
Just now on Facebook cx page
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jan 23, 2018 22:40:16 GMT 1
Transdev have obviously the upper hand south from Easingwold with the 31X as only the 5 or 6 30Xs worked by Reliance as quick between Easingwold and York but I suppose at hourly interval the slower Reliance services will be attractive to some through the convenience of the time of the journey. I wouldn't be so sure. Reliance run two buses an hour to Transdev's one, so although they are slightly slower, there are twice as many choices. Reliance run (slightly) later into the evening than the 31X, and they run an hourly Sunday service all year round compared with Stephenson's offer of 3 journeys a day during the summer only. When Stephensons launched the 41 back in 2010 to run an hourly service in direct competition with the 40, it lasted only a few months before it was pulled. Reliance appear to have a good reputation, running decent buses and having steadily built up the service over a number of years. Transdev will really have their work cut out if they think they can march in and steal the corridor from an established operator here. There's no reason why the companies can't continue in tandem, but if only one operator remains then I wouldn't expect it to be Transdev. I would imagine that Reliance's dream scenario is that Transdev pull out of the 31X altogether, and they run it as a self-contained single-vehicle route between Easingwold and Helmsley only, connecting with their buses on to York. Of course, they would need to tweak their 30/30X timetables to optimise them for that connection, but there's no reason why that couldn't work. Do they not go different ways, serving different villages, rather than it all being about people making the full Easingwold to York journey Regarding the 181, what are the chances of Transdev taking it now, and another spat occurring. |
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Post by gledhill56 on Jan 23, 2018 22:44:01 GMT 1
From Connexions twitter We've been operating the 181 without subsidy for 2 days in the hope nycc would find it for longer. Despite discussions this hasn't Happened, so we won't be operating tomorrow. @northyorkscc are putting a tender out commencing Monday - so will operate from then Is the final comment a presumption? I’d love to read this on twitter myself but for some reason they have decided to block me on twitter for no apparent reason. I’ve never commented on any of their posts so can’t see why I’ve been blocked. |
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Jan 23, 2018 22:51:12 GMT 1
This could turn nasty; not quite sure what Reliance are intending but it has all the makings of Pennine v Transdev and we all know what happened there. Have seen a tweet from a third party in the style of a Connexions anti Transdev one promoting the use of Reliances 30/30X between York and Easingwold and changing to Reliances 31X onto Helmsley (seems to ignore the wait neccessary at Easingwold and the lengthened journey time for through passengers). If Reliance persist would not be surprised if Transdev increased the frequency of the 31X between York and Easingwold. If its the one I’ve seen, its no wonder - the person who tweeted is an ex Transdev employee now working for ConneXions. |
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Post by SCH117X on Jan 23, 2018 23:11:04 GMT 1
Regarding the 181, what are the chances of Transdev taking it now. Quite probable - Transdev will take into account the cost of the discounted ticket to Castle Howard off Coastliner and how much it would be to their benefit to keep the monies in house. |
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Post by SCH117X on Jan 23, 2018 23:12:47 GMT 1
I’d love to read this on twitter myself but for some reason they have decided to block me on twitter for no apparent reason. I’ve never commented on any of their posts so can’t see why I’ve been blocked. Can't stop you looking anonymously via a web browser. |
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Post by stevieinselby on Jan 23, 2018 23:26:09 GMT 1
Do they not go different ways, serving different villages, rather than it all being about people making the full Easingwold to York journey That's where the 31X falls down. The 31X doesn't serve any villages that aren't on the 30 and 30X routes, which already have an hourly service to York and Easingwold. It may be commercially viable to have 3 buses an hour between York and Easingwold, but in terms of ensuring coverage of intermediate villages it isn't necessary. Quite high! Especially if Transdev can run the service from Malton then they will save on dead mileage, which will help to keep costs down. If they do get it then please gods let them put B10BLEs on it and not MPDs ... the thought of those trying to pull out onto the A64 is not a good one! |
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jan 23, 2018 23:31:46 GMT 1
You would have thought Transdev would have the lowest bid considering the 0 Miles dead mileage from the bus station to the depot, but then again margins are higher for the big groups, and of course they didn’t run it before this week, Stephenson’s did. They didn’t run the Malton minibuses either.
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Post by stevieinselby on Jan 24, 2018 0:49:53 GMT 1
You would have thought Transdev would have the lowest bid considering the 0 Miles dead mileage from the bus station to the depot, but then again margins are higher for the big groups, and of course they didn’t run it before this week, Stephenson’s did. They didn’t run the Malton minibuses either. Remember that until recently, Transdev York/Coastliner was a run as a premium operation, so low-cost council contracts weren't part of that. Obviously that has changed in the last few years, but after they lost/dropped the contracts for the 81, 93 and 94 (as they were before NYCC added 100 to them) back in about 2000 it wasn't part of their plan, and they were focusing only on the high profile stuff. The only snag with that plan may be that, as far as I can tell, the Malton depot is run under EU regulations rather than domestic – as Coastliner are just about the only long-distance buses left in this country that appear to be run as a single through service rather than a series of connecting links – so if they were to run any ex-Stephensons services from Malton then they would either have to be run more expensively under EU regulations or have a dedicated pool of drivers working to domestic regulations, which would be quite restrictive. |
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Jan 24, 2018 8:44:10 GMT 1
You would have thought Transdev would have the lowest bid considering the 0 Miles dead mileage from the bus station to the depot, but then again margins are higher for the big groups, and of course they didn’t run it before this week, Stephenson’s did. They didn’t run the Malton minibuses either. Remember that until recently, Transdev York/Coastliner was a run as a premium operation, so low-cost council contracts weren't part of that. Obviously that has changed in the last few years, but after they lost/dropped the contracts for the 81, 93 and 94 (as they were before NYCC added 100 to them) back in about 2000 it wasn't part of their plan, and they were focusing only on the high profile stuff. The only snag with that plan may be that, as far as I can tell, the Malton depot is run under EU regulations rather than domestic – as Coastliner are just about the only long-distance buses left in this country that appear to be run as a single through service rather than a series of connecting links – so if they were to run any ex-Stephensons services from Malton then they would either have to be run more expensively under EU regulations or have a dedicated pool of drivers working to domestic regulations, which would be quite restrictive. Coastliner is on domestic hours. |
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Post by stevieinselby on Jan 25, 2018 16:24:30 GMT 1
The 181 is back on, from tomorrow!
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Post by stevieinselby on Jan 25, 2018 16:26:56 GMT 1
Coastliner is on domestic hours. Intriguing ... so how do they get away with putting "Leeds" on the front of the bus in Whitby, 75 miles away, and not Pickering for connections to York for connections to Tadcaster for connections to Seacroft for connections to Leeds? |
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Post by SCH117X on Jan 25, 2018 21:06:20 GMT 1
NYCC themselves are to run the remainder of Stephensons services except 193 No service 194 Coastliner All starting tomorrow www.northyorks.gov.uk/bus-service-changes-and-newsand Easingwold services are no longer free @yorkbus A quick note for our new customers on 29 and 31/31X. We are now charging fares on these routes but will honour valid Stephensons to tickets and passes for free. Times & routes remain as normal 👍 |
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Jan 26, 2018 9:19:32 GMT 1
Coastliner is on domestic hours. Intriguing ... so how do they get away with putting "Leeds" on the front of the bus in Whitby, 75 miles away, and not Pickering for connections to York for connections to Tadcaster for connections to Seacroft for connections to Leeds? A lot of operators have been switching back to the showing the ultimate destination on split registrations over recent years, I think it was some Stagecoach subsidiaries who started it off and since there was no official reaction to this being unacceptable other operators have since followed suit. It is not really until there is a test case that we will know whether it is acceptable. |
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Post by SCH117X on Jan 29, 2018 22:37:14 GMT 1
Seems Reliance have formally cancelled their 31X north from Easingwold
PB2008079/1 Cancelled (Short notice)
JOHN HUNTER DUFF & GARY NEWBY
Route: Easingwold to Kirbymoorside
Service number: 31 (31X)
Service type: Normal Stopping
Effective date: 26 Jan 2018
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