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Post by mk2mcw on Jan 12, 2018 0:36:25 GMT 1
Please can somebody clear up something for me? According to a poster on a first/YR facebook page stagecoach are looking at taking over Bradford as it's not profitable can anybody shed light on this?
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Post by gooderson1 on Jan 12, 2018 10:11:05 GMT 1
If it is not profitable for First how would it be profitable for Stagecoach. But then given First Groups track record in other parts of the country who knows.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jan 12, 2018 18:41:04 GMT 1
“According to someone on Facebook....”
Fake news, as Donald Trump would say
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Post by northerner on Jan 12, 2018 19:05:51 GMT 1
I'd be really surprised if Bradford wasn't a profitable depot. And for a city of its size Bradford doesn't have much competition from other operators
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Post by martinsfp on Jan 12, 2018 20:23:43 GMT 1
I have no knowledge about this other than there was an identical rumour going around about 10 years ago and it came to nothing.
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Post by 1601 on Jan 12, 2018 21:06:15 GMT 1
If anything, we need them to take over Yorkshire Tiger, and properly!
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Post by mutty on Jan 13, 2018 7:39:56 GMT 1
If anything, we need them to take over Yorkshire Tiger, and properly! Stagecoach sold what is now Tiger in the first place, so why would they take it back?
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Post by dennisthemenace504 on Jan 13, 2018 10:51:47 GMT 1
Rumours probably started by an employee, ex employee or management, by claiming, it's not profitable due to wage costs, in which case, is it time for Bradford's wage negotiations to start???
About 8 years ago, they were rumoured to have put Huddersfield up for sale, and Stagecoach were favourite to buy it, before they had sold off Tracky, and it's still First operated.
If this is to be true, then surely there would be some info somewhere on the internet, of it for sale, one of the industry publications, would have published a story on it, or even First would've put out a press release saying they were looking to sell, and interested parties to contact etc.
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77syk7
Forum Member
Posts: 643
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Post by 77syk7 on Jan 13, 2018 21:09:18 GMT 1
Not entirely surprised at the rumour - but I would have thought that the Huddersfield depot was more at risk than Bradford. There has been a gradual but significant loss of routes by First over the last few years. You only have to note the lack of First buses in Huddersfield Bus Station after 6pm - I am sure their whole network will be run with less than 10 buses. I agree Stagecoach would not likely want to buy back the Yorkshire Tiger operations, having disposed of them a few years ago - but the whole bus industry is facing difficult times and stranger things have happened. As an aside, I have visited Huddersfield for over 60 years and I like the town - but I have noticed a decline in standards recently in the town centre. Nevertheless, I do not think it deserved to be voted 'the worst town in Britain' recently and this does not promote the town in a positive light for any potential entrepreneur!
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jan 13, 2018 22:35:19 GMT 1
Rumours probably started by an employee, ex employee or management, by claiming, it's not profitable due to wage costs, in which case, is it time for Bradford's wage negotiations to start??? About 8 years ago, they were rumoured to have put Huddersfield up for sale, and Stagecoach were favourite to buy it, before they had sold off Tracky, and it's still First operated. If this is to be true, then surely there would be some info somewhere on the internet, of it for sale, one of the industry publications, would have published a story on it, or even First would've put out a press release saying they were looking to sell, and interested parties to contact etc. The rumour was probably started by one of those enthusiasts who believes everything said to them by someone who works at a bus company, even if that role is overnight cleaner, and also doesn’t get jokes or sarcasm. There are a lot of them about. You only have to look at Flickr photos from 4 years ago and see the comments about things that were definitely going to happen. Regarding Huddersfield, the daytime network and PVR is almost exactly the same as it was 10 years ago, I can’t recall the last time there was a major change. I suppose rejigging the Holmfirth network would have been it, but it ended up with near enough the same resources used.
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Jan 13, 2018 22:50:24 GMT 1
I doubt First will sell Bradford any time soon. They recently introduced new buses on route X6. Indeed, it has often been Leeds - and Bradford - that have received the most new buses ahead of Halifax & Huddersfield.
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Post by steviewevie on Jan 14, 2018 0:10:42 GMT 1
Despite that there is still some ancient stuff running in Leeds.
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Post by ajw11239 on Jan 14, 2018 14:58:30 GMT 1
There’s ancient stuff running everywhere First operate. In my opinion they’ve fallen far far behind other big operators in terms of their service.
They’ve introduced next to no buses at all this past year, their service is plain awful and getting worse, and the condition of their fleet is poor. I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised if it’s losing money now.
I was stood behind a couple of drivers in York last week, one of whom was from Halifax and was staying in a hotel for six weeks working here because they’re so low on drivers. No new vehicles, no improvements to services but new ticket machines and staff uniforms which do very little by way of improving things.
First gave up areas in the South West a couple of years ago and passenger numbers are now on the up thanks to a solid investment in the place.
Spending about half my time in Leeds and York, and the other half in an area operated by Stagecoach, it is just getting more and more clear how Stagecoach are improving far more than First are.
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Post by britannia94 on Jan 14, 2018 15:12:00 GMT 1
Totally agree on how first have fallen behind it’s competitors. Near me there is a 15 minute service operated by first, but the buses they use are in a dire need of replacement or a major overhaul. The destination boards are hardly readable. The interior is worn down and looking dirty and doesn’t appear to have a good clean in a long time. Some of the buses screech when driving off or let out a cloud of black smoke.
Now they have two local competitors who serve the same area as well, TLC and Transdev Keighley. The TLC buses no complaints from, sure enough they don’t have WiFi etc but their clean and tidy and well kept, can’t complain on this one.
Now the Keighley service has seen some major investment in the past few months on the route with new buses which are clean, well maintained and don’t look like they’ve been found in a field and quickly shoved into service. For this reason I always try to time it so I can get either the Transdev service or the TLC service over this first service.
It would be nice to see investment in new buses but I don’t feel like it’s coming anyctime soon.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jan 14, 2018 15:27:40 GMT 1
First's financial issues are well documented, and come off the back of the Moir Lockhead era.
I believe First WY is the most profitable of all, or at least in the top 3
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Post by mk2mcw on Jan 14, 2018 22:38:02 GMT 1
When stagecoach took over cavalier travel in Huntingdon they introduced:
An hourly service to huntingdon and Peterborough from rural ramsey
£5.00 day ticket anywhere in the fens
The bus way
But they took away:
Evening and Sunday service between ramsey and huntingdon leaving all villages isolated
Withdrew the regular st Ives ramsey bus
Rocketed single fares by 1.20 reduced the hourly service between huntingdon and ramsey and Peterborough to 2 hours
I prefer first
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Post by ajw11239 on Jan 31, 2018 17:46:38 GMT 1
Bit of number crunching for you....
All of the financial year 2016-17 numbers have been added to companies house for First's Operating Areas.
In the picture is the list, sorted by how much profit it made.
Interesting to note West Yorkshire, by a good margin, was the most profitable company at £9.6m profit last year. However eight companies made a loss this year, some rather large ones too (including York).
Numbers don't look great to be honest. I didn't have time to crunch all the Stagecoach numbers, but from looking at all of them - I didn't see one area where a loss was made in the last financial year.
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Post by neukit on Jan 31, 2018 20:29:08 GMT 1
However, the actual profit margin would put Glasgow No.2 at the top, with Leicester, Scotland East and Cymru also ahead of West Yorkshire.
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Post by rwilkes on Jan 31, 2018 20:44:49 GMT 1
ajw - would be good if you could post the Stagecoach figures, interesting to compare I have no idea how you get them
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jan 31, 2018 21:45:12 GMT 1
From discussions on another forum, it is thought First have loaded one off group costs deliberately on better performing areas, as the massive % increases/decreases in profit/loss out of step with the change in turnover is unexplainable otherwise.
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Post by ajw11239 on Jan 31, 2018 22:43:49 GMT 1
Figures are taken from Companies House for all the individual operating companies.
Here's the Stagecoach one I've just done - some of the location names might be wrong because I tried to work out what area they were, since the use the old company names (e.g. Stagecoach East Midlands = Lincolnshire Road Car Ltd)
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Post by nic on Jan 31, 2018 22:57:42 GMT 1
What is worrying, Stagecoach did not have one loss performing area in 2017 yet First had too many. They had losses in Manchester and Sheffield areas i would of thought they would of been very very strong in.
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Post by rossbailey on Feb 1, 2018 1:23:34 GMT 1
Would more interesting to see the total £130 million turnover and £9.64 million profits figures being split up to show how much each of First West Yorkshire's individual divisions (Leeds, Bradford, Halifax Huddersfield) contributed to them..
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Post by SCH117X on Feb 1, 2018 11:18:03 GMT 1
What is worrying, Stagecoach did not have one loss performing area in 2017 So why are they closing West Norfolk (ex Norfolk Green) ?
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Post by rwilkes on Feb 1, 2018 12:12:44 GMT 1
It seems Stagecoach messed up a bit on Kings Lynn and were faced by a good local operator Lynx competing on an important route. Bus areas are always a bit fluid and if an operator falls down in any area they can be pushed out if they do not react quickly. Regulated areas give a sort of stability, but if the incumbent is no good there is nothing that can be done about it. The big five do not have monopoly. There will be more changes.
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