|
Post by westyorkshirebus on Jun 12, 2017 22:29:22 GMT 1
Of course all bus companies, do that, referring to fare increases as fare changes and the like, but in this case it's particularly over the top, almost as if axing these journeys is doing you a favour.
I'm surprised they've axed the 62 extension, I would have expected them to keep that even if it was making a loss. It was a key link in the Day Tripper advertising and the new Yorkshire guide they've done, not to mention a certain Connexions buses.
|
|
|
Post by deerfold on Jun 13, 2017 9:56:14 GMT 1
It does seem to odd to have a massive relaunch on the Brontëbus then 6 weeks later cut journeys on it. And to "prepare for big improvements to the 760" by cutting the last journey on 5 days of the week.
The 62 changes seem odd. I've seen very few people travelling to Otley compared to Harrogate when I've caught it. I saw several people suggesting that if it doesn't quite provide commuter journeys it might be worth having a later journey so people can go for a drink in Harrogate but instead the last bus was cut. Annoyingly I'd quite a few plans involving it over the summer. Certainly cuts out a lot of Daytripper trips - I'm not going to go to Harrogate on the bus via Leeds taking 3 hours when I can do it in less than half that on the train. Buses in Keighley did seem to be trying lots of improvements, but it looks like it's back to the old days of cutting early and late journeys, making the bus a poor choice for those who have alternatives, fewer people catching the bus and the cycle continuing.
"Simpler and better" when cutting journeys and not providing any extra ones does seem really patronising - treating customers like idiots can't be good, surely?
|
|
|
Post by deerfold on Jun 13, 2017 9:58:14 GMT 1
I do keep asking Transdev what's easier about changing service numbers that people have been using for 30+ years, but I get no answer (I also asked why they'd renumbered the Brontëbuses so the B1 was the only service that didn't run evenings and Sundays - I'd have thought the 500 would have made most sense to become the B1, again no answer).
|
|
|
Post by SCH117X on Jun 13, 2017 17:59:20 GMT 1
The 62 changes seem odd. I've seen very few people travelling to Otley compared to Harrogate when I've caught it. I saw several people suggesting that if it doesn't quite provide commuter journeys it might be worth having a later journey so people can go for a drink in Harrogate but instead the last bus was cut. Annoyingly I'd quite a few plans involving it over the summer. Certainly cuts out a lot of Daytripper trips - I'm not going to go to Harrogate on the bus via Leeds taking 3 hours when I can do it in less than half that on the train. 3 trips a day still possible with Transdev Otley-Harrogate using the 923 and 36 changing at Harewood Bridge or Harewood as timings may permit
|
|
69340
Forum Member
Posts: 459
|
Post by 69340 on Jun 13, 2017 18:14:42 GMT 1
The 62 changes seem odd. I've seen very few people travelling to Otley compared to Harrogate when I've caught it. I saw several people suggesting that if it doesn't quite provide commuter journeys it might be worth having a later journey so people can go for a drink in Harrogate but instead the last bus was cut. Annoyingly I'd quite a few plans involving it over the summer. Certainly cuts out a lot of Daytripper trips - I'm not going to go to Harrogate on the bus via Leeds taking 3 hours when I can do it in less than half that on the train. 3 trips a day still possible with Transdev Otley-Harrogate using the 923 and 36 changing at Harewood Bridge or Harewood as timings may permit Or 923 to wetherby then on 770/771 (70/71)
|
|
|
Post by stevieinselby on Jun 13, 2017 19:26:05 GMT 1
Or 923 to wetherby then on 770/771 (70/71) Bit of a pointless option given that it will always give you a considerably slower journey though...
|
|
|
Post by neukit on Jun 13, 2017 20:17:42 GMT 1
I do keep asking Transdev what's easier about changing service numbers that people have been using for 30+ years... I imagine it's more to do with branding and marketing it to encourage new users, rather than to those people that have been using it for 30+ years.
|
|
|
Post by neukit on Jun 13, 2017 20:27:52 GMT 1
"Simpler and better" when cutting journeys and not providing any extra ones does seem really patronising - treating customers like idiots can't be good, surely? You do realise that you can make a service better without adding more journeys. Introducing free wifi, USB charging, better seating etc, that benefits all users throughout the day/week would be seen by most reasonable people as making the service better. I don't think withdrawing the odd journey, that very few people will be using, detracts from the fact that the vast majority of users will benefit from the improvements. So, I don't believe anyone is being treated like an idiot.
|
|
|
Post by Bradford Traveller on Jun 13, 2017 20:52:42 GMT 1
Transdev Keighley have announced a raft of service cuts with effect from July 23rd: keighleybus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=2017In summary, 62 is curtailed to operate Keighley-Ilkley-Otley. A number of early morning / evening journeys withdrawn on the K series of routes, last 662 withdrawn and a couple of journeys on Brontebus are axed. 696/697/698 are to become 67, 68 and 69 with evening service being every 2 hours. Re-routed in Bradford City Centre. 760 becomes 60 with the last journeys withdrawn Sunday-Thursday It's worse than that. Brontë bus becomes hourly on an evening, alternating between Oxenhope and Oakworth. The last bus on the route via Denholme is a ridiculous 2100 ex Keighley or 2200 ex Bradford, that means the end of my evenings out ! I am aware that passenger numbers may only justify a 2-hourly service, but this is usually at the expense of the last bus. There is no last 607 on the route either, the justification being that the 697 also provided a service. Now there is neither. Both first and trandev are failing to provide a useful service on this route.
|
|
|
Post by gooderson1 on Jun 13, 2017 22:37:37 GMT 1
Obviously the last bus runs "on air" or perhaps one or two people at the most. Bus companies these days will not run a service if it does not make a profit. If WYMetro consider the last bus to be essential then they should offer it for tender, but therein lies a problem. Where does the money come from out of a limited pot.
|
|
northerner
Forum Member
Posts: 1,563
Member is Online
|
Post by northerner on Jun 13, 2017 22:56:38 GMT 1
"Simpler and better" when cutting journeys and not providing any extra ones does seem really patronising - treating customers like idiots can't be good, surely? You do realise that you can make a service better without adding more journeys. Introducing free wifi, USB charging, better seating etc, that benefits all users throughout the day/week would be seen by most reasonable people as making the service better. I don't think withdrawing the odd journey, that very few people will be using, detracts from the fact that the vast majority of users will benefit from the improvements. So, I don't believe anyone is being treated like an idiot. The service isn't better though when it's non-existent. And the Wifi, charging sockets etc. isn't really a selling point given that many routes which advertise these routinely have buses allocated without them. The 662 often has 2 if not more non Wi-fi buses out, and the 66 has ancient Presidents along with regular B7 stand ins. It just creates a poor image when you advertise something then routinely fail to deliver AS I've already mentioned the whole Keighley network could do with a re-write, in the same way Arriva did with Castleford last year. There's so much potential to make changes for the better rather than trimming many services back outside of the core daytime operation.
|
|
|
Post by neukit on Jun 13, 2017 23:03:49 GMT 1
Both first and trandev are failing to provide a useful service on this route. They're both providing fully commercial services, so they must be useful to enough people to maintain their viability. If the passenger demand was there after 2135/2200 from Bradford, I'm sure services would exist. However, if they are only bringing in a small fraction of the operating costs at such times, no business would consider that to make good business sense.
|
|
|
Post by westyorkshirebus on Jun 13, 2017 23:33:54 GMT 1
"Simpler and better" when cutting journeys and not providing any extra ones does seem really patronising - treating customers like idiots can't be good, surely? You do realise that you can make a service better without adding more journeys. Introducing free wifi, USB charging, better seating etc, that benefits all users throughout the day/week would be seen by most reasonable people as making the service better. I don't think withdrawing the odd journey, that very few people will be using, detracts from the fact that the vast majority of users will benefit from the improvements. So, I don't believe anyone is being treated like an idiot. In this case I think it's just the way it's written It's like, look at all these great new features we've brought you, oh by the way we are removing some journeys but never mind as look at all these new features. I know you have to try to focus on the positives but they've gone too far the other way with these.
|
|
|
Post by www.buseireann.ie on Jun 13, 2017 23:42:31 GMT 1
I've got to be brutally honest about Keighley, on a night some pubs in Keighley make pubs like the Penny Hill or the George down Hunslet in Leeds look good. Could never do a night out in 'K' town no matter how good the Landlord or Boltmaker was. To be fair though at least it doesn't look like Bingley Meat Market, now that is a frightening place on a night.
|
|
|
Post by SCH117X on Jun 15, 2017 20:31:24 GMT 1
The 62 changes seem odd. I've seen very few people travelling to Otley compared to Harrogate when I've caught it. I saw several people suggesting that if it doesn't quite provide commuter journeys it might be worth having a later journey so people can go for a drink in Harrogate but instead the last bus was cut. Annoyingly I'd quite a few plans involving it over the summer. Certainly cuts out a lot of Daytripper trips Noticed Connexions have tweeted "We'd gladly accept day tripper if transdev would do similar with our Connexday tickets". Does any operator anywhere accept another operators day ticket? Nothing it in for Transdev to do so but obviously bags for Connexions if their day ticket was valid across the Transdev network (except east of York). Maybe a solution would be for Transdev to charge £2 or £3 for a Mini Daytripper add on to the cheaper Connexions day ticket and which is only valid only on specified services, i.e not on those where a Connexions service exist (although taken literally would mean the 36 could not be used between Harrogate and Buttersyke Bar as it duplicates the X52) nor in Lancashire. That way someone who could buy either would buy a Daytripper but Transdev gain revenue from Connexday holders that they would not have otherwise got.
|
|
69340
Forum Member
Posts: 459
|
Post by 69340 on Jun 15, 2017 20:36:28 GMT 1
Or 923 to wetherby then on 770/771 (70/71) Bit of a pointless option given that it will always give you a considerably slower journey though... Not that pointless at least you can get a guaranteed good seat on the 770 that starts from Wetherby. I've got 36 before from Harewood to harrogate and had to stand.
|
|
|
Post by dennisthemenace504 on Jun 15, 2017 20:41:53 GMT 1
The 62 changes seem odd. I've seen very few people travelling to Otley compared to Harrogate when I've caught it. I saw several people suggesting that if it doesn't quite provide commuter journeys it might be worth having a later journey so people can go for a drink in Harrogate but instead the last bus was cut. Annoyingly I'd quite a few plans involving it over the summer. Certainly cuts out a lot of Daytripper trips Noticed Connexions have tweeted "We'd gladly accept day tripper if transdev would do similar with our Connexday tickets". Does any operator anywhere accept another operators day ticket? Nothing it in for Transdev to do so but obviously bags for Connexions if their day ticket was valid across the Transdev network (except east of York). Maybe a solution would be for Transdev to charge £2 or £3 for a Mini Daytripper add on to the cheaper Connexions day ticket and which is only valid only on specified services, i.e not on those where a Connexions service exist (although taken literally would mean the 36 could not be used between Harrogate and Buttersyke Bar as it duplicates the X52) nor in Lancashire. That way someone who could buy either would buy a Daytripper but Transdev gain revenue from Connexday holders that they would not have otherwise got. Yes, TLC accept other Operators Day/Weekly/Monthly tickets, on payment of £1
|
|
|
Post by deerfold on Jun 15, 2017 21:18:51 GMT 1
Yes, TLC accept other Operators Day/Weekly/Monthly tickets, on payment of £1 Jacksons of Silsden do the same for Transdev tickets on the 903.
|
|
|
Post by deerfold on Jun 15, 2017 21:22:41 GMT 1
The 62 changes seem odd. I've seen very few people travelling to Otley compared to Harrogate when I've caught it. I saw several people suggesting that if it doesn't quite provide commuter journeys it might be worth having a later journey so people can go for a drink in Harrogate but instead the last bus was cut. Annoyingly I'd quite a few plans involving it over the summer. Certainly cuts out a lot of Daytripper trips - I'm not going to go to Harrogate on the bus via Leeds taking 3 hours when I can do it in less than half that on the train. 3 trips a day still possible with Transdev Otley-Harrogate using the 923 and 36 changing at Harewood Bridge or Harewood as timings may permit True - but I'd have less than 3 hours between arriving at Harewood on the earliest possible bus and having to be back for the last one.
|
|
|
Post by pjb on Jun 16, 2017 4:54:17 GMT 1
Both first and trandev are failing to provide a useful service on this route. They're both providing fully commercial services, so they must be useful to enough people to maintain their viability. If the passenger demand was there after 2135/2200 from Bradford, I'm sure services would exist. However, if they are only bringing in a small fraction of the operating costs at such times, no business would consider that to make good business sense. The 2300 697 has always had a reasonable amount of passengers on from bradford when I've used it. I agree that it might not be used much after Thornton but surely if the 697 is being withdrawn, a few years after the last 607 was withdrawn then First should now consider a late 607 running as far as Thornton cemetery to in part replace the last 697 and at least give the option of a decent length evening out in the city. Also as an aside there is a 615 at 2223 from Interchange to Eldwick which goes up Thornton road but turns off at Bell Dean road after Fairweather Green. There's also a final 616 leaving Interchange at 2250 but This turns off Thornton road at Four lane ends so is no good for people living in Thornton village. This will become the final bus up Thornton road each day but won't reach Thornton.
|
|
|
Post by dwarfer1979 on Jun 16, 2017 8:37:54 GMT 1
The 62 changes seem odd. I've seen very few people travelling to Otley compared to Harrogate when I've caught it. I saw several people suggesting that if it doesn't quite provide commuter journeys it might be worth having a later journey so people can go for a drink in Harrogate but instead the last bus was cut. Annoyingly I'd quite a few plans involving it over the summer. Certainly cuts out a lot of Daytripper trips Noticed Connexions have tweeted "We'd gladly accept day tripper if transdev would do similar with our Connexday tickets". Does any operator anywhere accept another operators day ticket? Nothing it in for Transdev to do so but obviously bags for Connexions if their day ticket was valid across the Transdev network (except east of York). Maybe a solution would be for Transdev to charge £2 or £3 for a Mini Daytripper add on to the cheaper Connexions day ticket and which is only valid only on specified services, i.e not on those where a Connexions service exist (although taken literally would mean the 36 could not be used between Harrogate and Buttersyke Bar as it duplicates the X52) nor in Lancashire. That way someone who could buy either would buy a Daytripper but Transdev gain revenue from Connexday holders that they would not have otherwise got. It's not widespread but it does happen, it tends to be more common on neighbouring rather than overlapping (& competing) operators and it does normally require there to be good longstanding relations between the operators involved to get it agreed. The big problem occurs, as you have suggested, where the prices on the two operators are not comparable where passengers will board one operator to buy the ticket and then disembark and board the other operator to actually use it. Accepting another operators ticket for a small surcharge is more common, it is often used by smaller operators who operate in an area (or along a corridor) where another operator has the dominant provision to reduce the impact of season/network ticket sales, passengers don't like waiting but they like paying for something they already feel they have paid for (like bus travel) even less so will wait for the bus their ticket is on but if the add on is low enough passengers will value the time saving as worth it and so use the smaller operator which means they have a passenger and bit of income they wouldn't have had before. Charging a surcharge to top up the price of the other operators day ticket to your price is one option, as is offering a separate joint ticket product or allowing the other operator to offer your higher priced ticket on top of their range. There are legal competition issues over more entwined deals with revenue sharing but simple reciprocal deals or top-up prices don't trigger the need for competition authority oversight or approval.
|
|
|
Post by SCH117X on Jun 16, 2017 16:49:34 GMT 1
3 trips a day still possible with Transdev Otley-Harrogate using the 923 and 36 changing at Harewood Bridge or Harewood as timings may permit True - but I'd have less than 3 hours between arriving at Harewood on the earliest possible bus and having to be back for the last one. Agreed but it does allow someone doing a circular journey on a Daytripper to still do that albeit restricted by the time of day the 923 runs. As for the 62 still running to Otley it probably now has increased use given Connexions have altered the route of the X52.
|
|
|
Post by Burnside on Jun 17, 2017 8:40:57 GMT 1
Would be surprised if that were the case.
The only change to the route of the X52 is to use Valley Dr and Railway Rd in and out of Ilkley. Whenever I've used either service when both used Springs Lane and Bolling Rd, they never picked up or set down between Ilkley bus station and Wheatley Lane (where both routes now meet).
I think it's more likely that there is sufficient custom from Keighley, Silsden etc to continue to serve Otley, and presumably allow a PVR reduction, but the section from there to Harrogate is rather rural in places and is probably unable to support two services within minutes of each other.
|
|
|
Post by stevieinselby on Jun 17, 2017 10:47:16 GMT 1
I think it's more likely that there is sufficient custom from Keighley, Silsden etc to continue to serve Otley, and presumably allow a PVR reduction, but the section from there to Harrogate is rather rural in places and is probably unable to support two services within minutes of each other. Cutting the section between Otley and Harrogate will allow them to reduce the PVR from 5 to 4. With the Otley to Harrogate corridor already being well-served by an hourly X52, an hourly 747 from Pool, and then the frequent 36 from Pannal, it isn't a great surprise that the 62 has struggled. Perhaps if they had run it on the opposite side of the clock from the X52 they might have had more luck...
|
|
|
Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Jun 17, 2017 18:52:45 GMT 1
Transdev Keighley have announced a raft of service cuts with effect from July 23rd: keighleybus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=2017In summary, 62 is curtailed to operate Keighley-Ilkley-Otley. A number of early morning / evening journeys withdrawn on the K series of routes, last 662 withdrawn and a couple of journeys on Brontebus are axed. 696/697/698 are to become 67, 68 and 69 with evening service being every 2 hours. Re-routed in Bradford City Centre. 760 becomes 60 with the last journeys withdrawn Sunday-Thursday Pity about the cuts but useful to be prepared for the new route numbers. Quite a bit has changed in recent years with the B and K routes too.
|
|