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Post by stevieinselby on Oct 19, 2016 13:22:02 GMT 1
One thing that I know has been discussed, but I don't think reached any conclusion, is what happens if an operator registers their own service from the P&R site into town. It looks as though all the restrictions that apply to access roads are on vehicle type, ie any buses would be allowed, they aren't just for authorised buses only.
Would drivers be liable for fines/prosecution if they parked and then used an alternative bus service? Does that rule even apply at all sites?
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Post by ajw11239 on Oct 19, 2016 13:30:03 GMT 1
Um that's an interesting question. To the best of my knowledge passengers may only park at P&R sites to use the service there, but this isn't strictly enforced, with the exception of the Monks Cross service, where passengers are given a token which needs to be activated on board the bus to get out the car park.
That said though, this is more to stop the P&R park being used as an overflow for the nearby shopping centres. But I'd imagine this wouldn't be impossible for the other sites. (Exception of the designer outlet where the P&R just shares the parking space).
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Steve Macz403
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Post by Steve Macz403 on Oct 19, 2016 14:35:51 GMT 1
Um that's an interesting question. To the best of my knowledge passengers may only park at P&R sites to use the service there, but this isn't strictly enforced, with the exception of the Monks Cross service, where passengers are given a token which needs to be activated on board the bus to get out the car park. That said though, this is more to stop the P&R park being used as an overflow for the nearby shopping centres. But I'd imagine this wouldn't be impossible for the other sites. (Exception of the designer outlet where the P&R just shares the parking space). That's interesting you state this, I have used Askham Bar park and ride to take a car drivers break from A64 Scarborough to Leeds before. It's nice point to stop at then jump back on the A64. There's no parking barrier, to recieve a ticket to enter and exit the P&R, liked paid car parks. Even if you needed to have a drivers break of the A64 you could use this. Or even Grimston Bar. I've also used Askham bar to board the 3 into York, so I've used it two purposes.
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jc
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Post by jc on Oct 19, 2016 19:21:18 GMT 1
One thing that I know has been discussed, but I don't think reached any conclusion, is what happens if an operator registers their own service from the P&R site into town. It looks as though all the restrictions that apply to access roads are on vehicle type, ie any buses would be allowed, they aren't just for authorised buses only. Would drivers be liable for fines/prosecution if they parked and then used an alternative bus service? Does that rule even apply at all sites? I have wondered how much it would cost a bus company to build their own basic P&R. How many years would it take to get a return on investment for a rectangular car park, office, waiting shelter, security etc? I had an interesting discussion with someone who thought the P&R sites were effectively in the wrong place to lure drivers who were stuck in rush hour traffic trying to get over the outer ring road, rather than having just crossed it.
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Post by stevieinselby on Oct 19, 2016 20:50:08 GMT 1
I have wondered how much it would cost a bus company to build their own basic P&R. How many years would it take to get a return on investment for a rectangular car park, office, waiting shelter, security etc? I had an interesting discussion with someone who thought the P&R sites were effectively in the wrong place to lure drivers who were stuck in rush hour traffic trying to get over the outer ring road, rather than having just crossed it. From what I recall, Coastliner did try to set up a park and ride site on the A64 somewhere near Hazelbush – this was before the Monks Cross site opened – but planning permission was refused on the grounds that there would be too much additional right-turning traffic on and off the A64 and it would be either dangerous (if a priority junction) or disruptive (if a signalised junction or roundabout). There are park and ride services in some places that are operated commercially by bus companies rather than being through a contract with the council. The big disadvantage to that in York is that if it ends up with different sites being run by different operators, you could potentially lose the integration of the system as a whole. In terms of the locations, you have to think back to when the network started up in earnest. The three sites were: Askham Bar (for A64W, A19S and B1224), Clifton Moor (for A19N, A59 and B1363) and Grimston Bar (for A64E, A166 and A1079). Had those sites been further out, they wouldn't have been able to mop up the traffic from several roads each so easily, so coverage would have been lower and set-up costs higher. Yes, ideally now we would have sites further out. Poppleton Bar exemplifies this, being outside the ring road. The new Askham Bar site should have been better because, although it's inside the by-pass there isn't a congested ring road to cross at that point – but while the original plans included a direct connector from the eastbound off-slip straight into the car park missing out the appalling traffic light complex, cost-cutting meant that direct connector wasn't built and so now P&R-bound traffic has to queue with everyone else.
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Post by stevieinselby on Oct 19, 2016 20:52:01 GMT 1
Um that's an interesting question. To the best of my knowledge passengers may only park at P&R sites to use the service there, but this isn't strictly enforced, with the exception of the Monks Cross service, where passengers are given a token which needs to be activated on board the bus to get out the car park. It is enforced at Poppleton Bar, which seems particularly pointless and petty given how lightly used the car park is (and the enforcement is in that typical petty power-mad jobsworth way that you would imagine).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2016 22:36:39 GMT 1
One thing that I know has been discussed, but I don't think reached any conclusion, is what happens if an operator registers their own service from the P&R site into town. It looks as though all the restrictions that apply to access roads are on vehicle type, ie any buses would be allowed, they aren't just for authorised buses only. Would drivers be liable for fines/prosecution if they parked and then used an alternative bus service? Does that rule even apply at all sites? I have wondered how much it would cost a bus company to build their own basic P&R. How many years would it take to get a return on investment for a rectangular car park, office, waiting shelter, security etc? I had an interesting discussion with someone who thought the P&R sites were effectively in the wrong place to lure drivers who were stuck in rush hour traffic trying to get over the outer ring road, rather than having just crossed it. Stagecoach Manchester own & operate the Hazel Grove Park & Ride,going by the news report at the time of opening it cost them £3m,so i can understand why operators do not open one themselves at that price. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/park-ride-hazel-grove-opens-9560401
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kendall17
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Justice for the 96!
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Post by kendall17 on Oct 19, 2016 23:52:21 GMT 1
Land purchase Planning permission Construction Upkeep CCTV Enforcement Buses Drivers
Too expensive. Take out 6/8ths of that and receive a fee for running the service no matter what the patronage, you can see why they don't run their own
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Oct 20, 2016 8:33:03 GMT 1
One thing that I know has been discussed, but I don't think reached any conclusion, is what happens if an operator registers their own service from the P&R site into town. It looks as though all the restrictions that apply to access roads are on vehicle type, ie any buses would be allowed, they aren't just for authorised buses only. Would drivers be liable for fines/prosecution if they parked and then used an alternative bus service? Does that rule even apply at all sites? In regards to the car drivers walking off the site to catch a local service bus, it would depend on how it was being enforced as to whether it was an issue (I have experienced it at a Shrewsbury Park & Ride site where we were told we had to use the P&R bus if we parked at the site when we tried to walk over the road to catch a local service bus) but it certainly varies greatly from place to place and sometimes the issue is ensuring on car park users use the buses to avoid extracting revenue from normal local service buses. In terms of bus companies serving a Park & Ride site, as it is private land owned by the council they can control who has access to the site either through qualitative limits or through a tendering process in the same way business, airports, schools & Universities can. Generally because P&R are by their nature largely used by people who don't use buses a lot outside the P&R councils like to keep it as simple as possible by limiting it to a single operator at a site for a service (to help increase use of P&R sites a number of councils also use them for parking for other congested sites like Hospitals - Oxford, Cambridge, Bath & Leicester for instance all do this from one or more sites) so passengers know what to catch & don't have issues over ticket acceptance between buses. There was a period where their was competition on the Oxford Park & Ride when Thames Transit started competing with the established Oxford Bus Company service but I don't think it particularly lasted very long, I don't think P&R services are particularly suited to on road competition as they are very peaky and customers will tend to stick to what they know besides which there is a limited market as they can only generate as many passengers as there are parking spaces at the site. In terms of an operator building their own there is a lot of up-front costs before you can start earning any money so it is a big risk and many aren't profitable once you factor in running costs of the site so it is a big risk and that assumes you can get planning permission (by the nature of the location on the edge of town they can be contentious as they impinge on Green Belt and without active council support it can be difficult - Hazel Grove is, I think, inside the urban area of Greater Manchester even if far enough out as to attract car drivers up the A6). Councils tend to be quite protective of their sites once they have built them and don't tend to release them, Cambridge appeared to prefer charging a parking fee and so making a major dent in usage of the site rather than letting Stagecoach manage the sites for them for no cost. Trent at one point were advertising various local car parks in outlying villages South of Nottingham as Micro-Park & Ride where prospective customers were pointed to sites which were served by decent frequency services into Nottingham though I'm not sure how much promotion was done after the initial burst and they don't appear to mention it any more.
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Post by mark51953 on Oct 20, 2016 21:50:35 GMT 1
One thing that I know has been discussed, but I don't think reached any conclusion, is what happens if an operator registers their own service from the P&R site into town. It looks as though all the restrictions that apply to access roads are on vehicle type, ie any buses would be allowed, they aren't just for authorised buses only. Would drivers be liable for fines/prosecution if they parked and then used an alternative bus service? Does that rule even apply at all sites? In regards to the car drivers walking off the site to catch a local service bus, it would depend on how it was being enforced as to whether it was an issue (I have experienced it at a Shrewsbury Park & Ride site where we were told we had to use the P&R bus if we parked at the site when we tried to walk over the road to catch a local service bus) but it certainly varies greatly from place to place and sometimes the issue is ensuring on car park users use the buses to avoid extracting revenue from normal local service buses. In terms of bus companies serving a Park & Ride site, as it is private land owned by the council they can control who has access to the site either through qualitative limits or through a tendering process in the same way business, airports, schools & Universities can. Generally because P&R are by their nature largely used by people who don't use buses a lot outside the P&R councils like to keep it as simple as possible by limiting it to a single operator at a site for a service (to help increase use of P&R sites a number of councils also use them for parking for other congested sites like Hospitals - Oxford, Cambridge, Bath & Leicester for instance all do this from one or more sites) so passengers know what to catch & don't have issues over ticket acceptance between buses. There was a period where their was competition on the Oxford Park & Ride when Thames Transit started competing with the established Oxford Bus Company service but I don't think it particularly lasted very long, I don't think P&R services are particularly suited to on road competition as they are very peaky and customers will tend to stick to what they know besides which there is a limited market as they can only generate as many passengers as there are parking spaces at the site. In terms of an operator building their own there is a lot of up-front costs before you can start earning any money so it is a big risk and many aren't profitable once you factor in running costs of the site so it is a big risk and that assumes you can get planning permission (by the nature of the location on the edge of town they can be contentious as they impinge on Green Belt and without active council support it can be difficult - Hazel Grove is, I think, inside the urban area of Greater Manchester even if far enough out as to attract car drivers up the A6). Councils tend to be quite protective of their sites once they have built them and don't tend to release them, Cambridge appeared to prefer charging a parking fee and so making a major dent in usage of the site rather than letting Stagecoach manage the sites for them for no cost. Trent at one point were advertising various local car parks in outlying villages South of Nottingham as Micro-Park & Ride where prospective customers were pointed to sites which were served by decent frequency services into Nottingham though I'm not sure how much promotion was done after the initial burst and they don't appear to mention it any more. It's only like the park n ride at the outlet pensioners park there car there then walk across for the 415 instead of the 7 so they don't pay maybe they should get a ticket so only can use the 7
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Post by spiritofjaguar on Oct 21, 2016 8:58:35 GMT 1
Surely they can't enforce it at Designer Outlet either? As its a public shopping centre and the car parks are effectively for shoppers?
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Post by Arriva Wakefield on Oct 21, 2016 13:43:11 GMT 1
Surely they can't enforce it at Designer Outlet either? As its a public shopping centre and the car parks are effectively for shoppers? Council can't, but McArthur Glen could, as the car park is for users of the shopping centre and Park & Ride users only I believe. If you use the 415 or 18 then you could end up with a ticket.
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Post by jack97 on Oct 24, 2016 16:54:33 GMT 1
Saw York park n ride in Leeds on Friday parked up. It was merc artic 11114 by freight terminal in stourton.
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Post by gooderson1 on Dec 7, 2016 14:26:49 GMT 1
According to the on line edition of Routeone Magazine published today the First contract for the P&R contract in York has been extended by York City Council until January 2018
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Post by sharksmith on May 10, 2017 20:00:48 GMT 1
News today confirming a new eight year contract for York Park & Ride with some significant changes including new double deck operation. 3 new electric double deck vehicles will be used as well as the existing electric single decks. Also 28 new double deck buses and 6 new articulated vehicles. More capacity will be provided at four of the sites with overnight parking allowed at Askham Bar & Monks Cross. No operator has been revealed but the MP's website says the existing electric buses will be used and I understood these were First owned and not council owned so that could be a hint. www.minsterfm.com/news/local/2286295/new-eight-year-contract-for-yorks-park--ride/stevegalloway.mycouncillor.org.uk/tag/park-and-ride/
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Post by westyorkshirebus on May 10, 2017 20:17:22 GMT 1
Even with the fare "hike" that the councillor is objecting to, I still find £3.10 return perfectly reasonable.
Regarding "new" articulated buses, I'm surprised any manufacturer still makes a UK model.
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Post by stevieinselby on Jun 14, 2017 21:38:57 GMT 1
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Post by neukit on Jun 14, 2017 22:29:55 GMT 1
I wonder if they ever managed to get any bids from other operators? Interesting that they now seem to acknowledge that the service requires a subsidy, rather than the operators being required to pay for the 'privilege' of running the contract.
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Post by stevieinselby on Jun 14, 2017 22:40:20 GMT 1
Interesting that they now seem to acknowledge that the service requires a subsidy, rather than the operators being required to pay for the 'privilege' of running the contract. If I've read it right, the subsidy is primarily because of the initial investment needed to get the new electric buses up and running, rather than an ongoing sustainability issue.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Jun 14, 2017 22:44:21 GMT 1
Buses mag suggests that the 3 electric double decks will be Optare Metrodeckers, the diesel buses E400MMCs and Citaros as the arctics.
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Post by Burnside on Jun 14, 2017 22:52:59 GMT 1
York have taken delivery of a 17-reg Wright Streetdeck.
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A1YBG
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Post by A1YBG on Jun 15, 2017 7:27:00 GMT 1
York have taken delivery of a 17-reg Wright Streetdeck. It's a bus on loan for trials along side the optare Metro decker. 35100 think is the fleet number
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Post by ajw11239 on Jun 15, 2017 12:58:47 GMT 1
Here's a picture courtesy of First York's MD -
From what I have heard (this is not confirmed yet though) - the 66 will be receiving new stock this year, which will replace all the existing B9s to move to other York services. With the P&R stock being replaced too, this will cascade the existing B7RLEs too. Not sure about the Citaros, since they're restricted from quite a few of York's routes for various reasons.
I'm not sure why but it seems the group's 2017-18 order announcement seems to be very late this year, it's usually published by now....
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Post by ajw11239 on Jun 15, 2017 13:06:01 GMT 1
I wonder if they ever managed to get any bids from other operators? Interesting that they now seem to acknowledge that the service requires a subsidy, rather than the operators being required to pay for the 'privilege' of running the contract. I think this is the case - when CYC specified what they wanted, it was for a complete fleet of electric vehicles for the service, however York's bid for the Low Emission Bus Fund was turned down so the cost would have to be forked out completely by the operator. As a result, it received no bids that matched the full criteria. It's far too much for an operator to purchase electric vehicles and then pay the council too. I believe the Citaros will go to route 2 - which is the only route that can't go Double Deck.
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Post by northrob on Aug 28, 2017 22:03:17 GMT 1
It appears the the whole Park & Ride fleet will now be electric... www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/15498108.__3_3m_for_24_new_electric_buses_in_York/"A FLEET of new electric buses will take to the streets of York, as part of a new £3.3m investment in the city. Two dozen new buses will be brought to the city, making York the country’s first fully electric Park & Ride fleet, as part of the Department for Transport’s Low Emission Bus Scheme. Under the scheme, which will be match funded, 18 new double deckers and six new larger single deckers will join the 11 existing electric buses next year, along with three new electric buses which were already planned for the service. Councillor Ian Gillies, executive member for transport, said the announcement was “truly exceptional news for the entire city, and a further step towards our goal of a fully electric bus fleet”. He said: “Every electric bus can prevent air pollution caused by diesel bus engines, so 24 more will have a massive impact on the air that we breathe. “We’re proud that the government has acknowledged our ambition, and that our Park and Ride service is leading the way in making York an even healthier and more attractive place to live, visit and do business.” The new double deckers will be capable of running all day on a single charge through most of the year, and the new additions to the fleet could mean all four million park and ride journeys – making up more than a third of all York’s bus journeys - will be on ultra-low emission vehicles. The Government announced the new deal today, as local authorities and bus companies in Bristol, Brighton, Surrey, Denbighshire and Wiltshire were also awarded funds. York’s £3.3m is the second highest grant, behind only South Gloucestershire Council’s £4.8m, which will pay for 110 gas buses to be used around Bristol. Transport Minister Paul Maynard said: “City of York Council’s plans will make a real difference in cleaning up emissions from buses in the local area. “New greener buses will be more comfortable for passengers, they are cost efficient and are good for the environment. I am pleased that our funding will deliver 24 new electric buses for York.” Earlier this month, the council announced it would become the first UK city outside of London to try the new, fully electric double decker buses from North Yorkshire firm Optare. While no firm start date for the new fleet can yet be confirmed, First’s new contract with City of York Council begins next year and The Press understands the £3.3m funding will then go through a procurement process with First, and it is not yet possible to state which make or model of bus would be selected to be used in the new fleet. The new fleet will help improve vehicle emissions in the city, which have been a problem for the council in recent years. The council set itself a target of creating a clean air zone in the centre of York by 2018, and part of the plan was to take action on highly polluting diesel buses. In July, the council also announced it was considering launching the city’s first Air Quality Zone (AQZ) to try to deter larger diesel vehicles which emit nitrogen dioxide (NO2) gases. The authority also said it was considering introducing fines or charges for drivers who left their vehicles’ engines idling while stationary at bus stops and coach parks, in an effort to improve the city’s air quality. Previous electric buses - also from Optare and run by First - were introduced when the Poppleton Bar Park&Ride was opened in June 2014, and are still in operation."
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