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Post by timelesstable on May 22, 2016 10:40:37 GMT 1
Buses across Greater Manchester could all be painted the same colour - just as they were thirty years ago. The iconic orange double-deckers are now a thing of distant memory in the region, but a new bill launched in Parliament on Friday could see the entire fleet of buses across the ten boroughs return to a single shade. Branded the ‘linchpin’ of the devolution of power in Greater Manchester, it’s hoped the Bus Services Bill will be passed before a mayor is elected next May. And those in the know say it would transform our public transport network. Buses are vital to our way of life. Last year 210 million journeys were made by bus, accounting for 79 per cent of public transport trips. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/could-orange-gm-buses-coming-11365327#ICID=FB-MEN-mainHere are 10 reasons why it could make our future brighter: I like number 11 1. All buses the same colour 2. Passengers get the cheapest deals - even if they jump operators 3. Simplified fares 4 One route planner 5. One timetable planner 6. Getting you to the tram on time 7. Consistent service 8. You could complain properly! 9. We'd see where our money went 10. Back on the buses 11. Okay, there's one extra - The Queen said bus This Bill came up in the Queen’s Speech. We don’t think we’ve ever heard her mention buses before. Another sign it’s worth sitting up and taking notice? |
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Post by deerfold on May 22, 2016 10:59:30 GMT 1
And it took me 30 seconds to find it that the Queen mentioned buses in the same speech last year.
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Post by timelesstable on May 22, 2016 15:18:06 GMT 1
And it took me 30 seconds to find it that the Queen mentioned buses in the same speech last year. Maybe she's got a bus pass one never knows............... |
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Post by redpanda on May 22, 2016 16:35:32 GMT 1
Buses across Greater Manchester could all be painted the same colour - just as they were thirty years ago. The iconic orange double-deckers are now a thing of distant memory in the region, but a new bill launched in Parliament on Friday could see the entire fleet of buses across the ten boroughs return to a single shade. Branded the ‘linchpin’ of the devolution of power in Greater Manchester, it’s hoped the Bus Services Bill will be passed before a mayor is elected next May. And those in the know say it would transform our public transport network. Buses are vital to our way of life. Last year 210 million journeys were made by bus, accounting for 79 per cent of public transport trips. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/could-orange-gm-buses-coming-11365327#ICID=FB-MEN-mainHere are 10 reasons why it could make our future brighter: I like number 11 1. All buses the same colour 2. Passengers get the cheapest deals - even if they jump operators 3. Simplified fares 4 One route planner 5. One timetable planner 6. Getting you to the tram on time 7. Consistent service 8. You could complain properly! 9. We'd see where our money went 10. Back on the buses 11. Okay, there's one extra - The Queen said bus This Bill came up in the Queen’s Speech. We don’t think we’ve ever heard her mention buses before. Another sign it’s worth sitting up and taking notice? I wonder what would happen to Arriva Wythenshawe and Arriva Bolton as they're the only two Arriva depots in Greater Manchester. Would they repaint buses and repaint the sapphire buses? One wonders Also branded buses like Transdev's Witch Way, will these still have wifi and leather seats? Hope that Leeds don't get a mayor. I don't want to see the library go on the 36. |
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SF07
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Post by SF07 on Mar 14, 2021 16:54:32 GMT 1
Bus franchising might get the green light in Greater Manchester by the end of month. The proposal is being recommended to council leaders for approval before a meeting on the 23rd March and then passed onto the GM Mayor Andy Burnham, who should decide by the 25th March. If approved, franchising would be introduced in Greater Manchester in three parts: - 2023: Wigan, Bolton and parts of Salford/north Manchester
- 2024: Bury, Rochdale, Oldham and rest of north Manchester
- 2025: Stockport, Tameside, Trafford, south Manchester and rest of Salford
One question mark will be any potential impact on cross-county services. It's likely that services that run into Greater Manchester from depots outside of the area would remain unaffected (such as the 587 and 590 from Halifax) but no details on cross-county services that are operated from GM depots, such as the 84/184 from Oldham to Huddersfield (could continue as a GM service or taken over by First's Huddersfield depot). www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/news/greater-manchester-leaders-move-to-decision-on-bus-franchising-for-the-city-region/www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchester-looks-set-take-20111015 |
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Post by sharksmith on Mar 25, 2021 17:28:16 GMT 1
So it appears that Andy Burnham has got his way. I think it's going to turn out to be a very costly decision for the taxpayers of Greater Manchester but it will be interesting to see how things play out. I've never really understood how a transport authority who don't really have any experience of running buses day to day are going to improve things without spending vast sums of public money which just isn't going to be there. Let's just hope they're better than West Yorkshire's transport bosses, Crossgates line anyone? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-56523708 |
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Steve Macz403
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Post by Steve Macz403 on Mar 26, 2021 1:03:30 GMT 1
It would certainly be good. As living in Manchester i would welcome the changes, the awkwardness of having to change bus company to cross Manchester. Plenty of corridors where different operators come from. Stagecoach from the south. Diamond from the bolton/Salford corridor, GNW ( now on strike) from the north, remnants of First from Oldham and Vantage routes.
Even though TFGM do a system one ticket. It’s pricey and not an attractive price for bus passengers.
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Post by sharksmith on Mar 26, 2021 11:14:22 GMT 1
It's great to have a wish list and I hope that they discover a whole new way of running buses which can be rolled out nationwide.
Unfortunately the rhetoric from the mayors office is all about London. This is TFL who were 9 1 billion in debt in 2016 and 11.1 billion in debt by 2019. They are also sitting on falling bus passenger numbers and are cutting buses on many new tenders.
That's my worry, TfGM can come up with a bright and shiny new network with cheaper fares but who is going to pay for it?
What if they put their ideas out to tender and when all the bids are in they can't afford to pay for it, what will be the first solution?
Reduced Frequencies
Increased Fares
Council Tax Rises
More questionable quality of Operator
All of the above?
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Mar 27, 2021 12:30:49 GMT 1
The concern is that despite all the rhetoric coming out around the announcement of the decision during the actual consultation for this there was very little positive proposed. There seems little indication of extra investment, no major offers of radical change or improvement and no expectation or plan to grow patronage (indeed I believe they expected current passenger decline to continue except for a short pause caused, unbelievably, simple by the change in structure of local buses - they claimed to expect a brief blip where people returned simply because TfGM would be managing the network rather than private operators!).
There is this obsession with the perceived positives of London whilst ignoring the realities of operation, negatives or issues experienced. Proponents of franchising like to point to London as their example but ignore the fact that London isn't really franchising (they tender each route individually not area contracts as franchising proposals incorporate). London has also tried most of the different ways of managing a contract based network so we have some idea of what works and what doesn't, how and what the issues are:
1. They tried area tenders. There were some initial high profile launches but quality faded over the life of the contract and most ended early due to financial issues (& these were area networks were largely won by London Buses rather than private companies) - the financial aspect has been a recurring problem as contract prices rarely keep up with operating cost increases over the life of the contract so many London contractors are losing money on the contract by the end and essentially offset this by newly won contracts where they make their money (this has factored against the smaller operators, most of whom have gone bust or sold out, as they simply cannot support the volume needed to consistently gain enough work to cover the losses at the end of the contracts).
2. They tried to run their system on zero subsidy (or as close as possible). This really didn't work, passenger numbers were falling drastically and many contracts (though not all) were won on the basis of second hand vehicles and there were a number of operators relying on Manchester (& Glasgow, Sheffield & Birmingham) cast offs, including London Buses who re-purchased DMS's from Clydeside & Ailsas from Birmingham & Sheffield. This highlights than control isn't the source of the success that London but money.
3. The most successful period was the most recent where they went for high subsidy to drive up quality (a period we appear to be coming to the end of as funding streams are squeezed) on route tendering with quality incentives. This has shown distinct success but has also shown the high cost associated with making any significant improvement in provision through a contracting environment. As an accidental negative by-product of this quality drive was that it decimated cross-border services as London imposed quality restrictions on operators in order to participate in any London scheme such as Travelcards (including using London-spec dual-door vehicles) which made many of these services unviable and where London tendered replacements that went out into neighbouring counties they undermined the local networks there due to the un-commercial subsidised low fares that were often more than half that of the commercial rate in very high-cost areas like Surrey.
Manchester, like Tyne & Wear before them, appear to be trying to replicate the two failed strategies tried by London by doing franchising on the cheap (with little or no extra funding over that currently available) & large area contracts that carry much greater financial risk of failure to all parties and the danger of ossification of the network of specific areas of the network as it can be difficult to vary the contract after it starts (this isn't inherent but experience of dealing with British local councils is that this is not a strong point and often changes to contracts are more reliant on co-operation from the operators to not stick to the contract terms to maintain good relations - this is unlikely with these larger contracts involving major multi-nationals than small contracts with local companies).
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kenh
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Post by kenh on Mar 27, 2021 12:51:45 GMT 1
I cant see how it will help. through ticketing could be rolled out across GM but only on the subsidised network
And how will they stop operators from running a commercial service to abstract revenue from the franchised incumbent. Competition law would allow that to happen. How could Burnham stop Rosso running a through Rawtenstall - Manchester stopper via Bury?
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Mar 28, 2021 10:25:28 GMT 1
I cant see how it will help. through ticketing could be rolled out across GM but only on the subsidised network And how will they stop operators from running a commercial service to abstract revenue from the franchised incumbent. Competition law would allow that to happen. How could Burnham stop Rosso running a through Rawtenstall - Manchester stopper via Bury? Franchising isn't necessary for joint/through/shared ticketing, it isn't unheard of for commercial operators to have joint ticketing in a deregulated environment and it is at the heart of the concept of most forms of partnership schemes in some form. Manchester already has multi-operator & multi-modal schemes, the one piece of legislation that is needed in this area is some way of preventing the dominant operator of forcing a higher than necessary price for multi-operator schemes to protect their market share by maximising the price difference to their operator specific ticket. I'm not sure what the specific controls that will be in place for the franchising authority, whilst I don't think London can prevent cross-boundary services from operator (the services do have to be registered with TfL for the section within their area as well as the DVSA for the section outside) but they can refuse to allow them to participate in various ticketing schemes which under a franchising scheme will be the dominant source of passengers - from the London experience this will define whether such a service is viable if there is any significant length relying on local travel within the area. |
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Post by deerfold on Mar 28, 2021 12:09:57 GMT 1
I'm not sure what the specific controls that will be in place for the franchising authority, whilst I don't think London can prevent cross-boundary services from operator (the services do have to be registered with TfL for the section within their area as well as the DVSA for the section outside) but they can refuse to allow them to participate in various ticketing schemes which under a franchising scheme will be the dominant source of passengers - from the London experience this will define whether such a service is viable if there is any significant length relying on local travel within the area. TfL does not prevent other operators from using their ticketing scheme. However no operators do - they have all slowly dropped out of a scheme which provided around 60p per passenger journey (this figure has been largely unchanged for years and may have been viable for most private operators in 2000, it isn't in 2021). |
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Mar 29, 2021 8:39:47 GMT 1
I'm not sure what the specific controls that will be in place for the franchising authority, whilst I don't think London can prevent cross-boundary services from operator (the services do have to be registered with TfL for the section within their area as well as the DVSA for the section outside) but they can refuse to allow them to participate in various ticketing schemes which under a franchising scheme will be the dominant source of passengers - from the London experience this will define whether such a service is viable if there is any significant length relying on local travel within the area. TfL does not prevent other operators from using their ticketing scheme. However no operators do - they have all slowly dropped out of a scheme which provided around 60p per passenger journey (this figure has been largely unchanged for years and may have been viable for most private operators in 2000, it isn't in 2021). To be allowed to participate in London ticketing you must comply with London specified vehicle 'quality' standards which basically require you to run London spec dual-door 'standee' vehicles to access the full range - they haven't needed to actively prevent as the standard simply forced them out very early on. These may be fine for London routes but they are utterly unsuitable for a route which runs long-distances across country particularly if you are having to run single-deckers where instead of a 40-seat E200 you end up with a 31-seater. The highest proportion of the losses of these cross-border services, particularly in Surrey where the historic major towns for North & East Surrey (Kingston, Sutton & Croydon) all fell into Greater London when it was formed, was in the early 2000's as soon as these quality standards were introduced and low-floor buses were becoming standard and the difference between normal provincial spec and London spec was widest in terms of seating capacities. The amount paid may explain why even London contractors like Metroline have withdrawn their cross-border commercial services from London schemes as they have a ready source of London-spec vehicles and used to use such double-deckers but a few years ago switched to provincial spec E200s with blue fronts. Oyster also caused an issue as it isn't multi-operator (known as ITSO), it needs special TfL spec ticket machines which has issues elsewhere getting involved in other schemes outside London which makes involvement even harder for non-London operators. London Transport did prevent Dockland Transit from participating in London ticketing in the early 90's as it felt their services were competing with their core network so clearly there is, or was, an ability for them to decide to block operators or services if they wish. |
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Post by deerfold on Mar 29, 2021 14:30:31 GMT 1
TfL does not prevent other operators from using their ticketing scheme. However no operators do - they have all slowly dropped out of a scheme which provided around 60p per passenger journey (this figure has been largely unchanged for years and may have been viable for most private operators in 2000, it isn't in 2021). To be allowed to participate in London ticketing you must comply with London specified vehicle 'quality' standards which basically require you to run London spec dual-door 'standee' vehicles to access the full range - they haven't needed to actively prevent as the standard simply forced them out very early on. These may be fine for London routes but they are utterly unsuitable for a route which runs long-distances across country particularly if you are having to run single-deckers where instead of a 40-seat E200 you end up with a 31-seater. The highest proportion of the losses of these cross-border services, particularly in Surrey where the historic major towns for North & East Surrey (Kingston, Sutton & Croydon) all fell into Greater London when it was formed, was in the early 2000's as soon as these quality standards were introduced and low-floor buses were becoming standard and the difference between normal provincial spec and London spec was widest in terms of seating capacities. The amount paid may explain why even London contractors like Metroline have withdrawn their cross-border commercial services from London schemes as they have a ready source of London-spec vehicles and used to use such double-deckers but a few years ago switched to provincial spec E200s with blue fronts. Oyster also caused an issue as it isn't multi-operator (known as ITSO), it needs special TfL spec ticket machines which has issues elsewhere getting involved in other schemes outside London which makes involvement even harder for non-London operators. London Transport did prevent Dockland Transit from participating in London ticketing in the early 90's as it felt their services were competing with their core network so clearly there is, or was, an ability for them to decide to block operators or services if they wish. Do you have a source for any of that? Dockland Transit were before my time, but I worked for London Buses (LBSL) 2001-2015 and am not aware of any operator not being allowed to have a ticketing contract, nor any requirements for particular bus specifications to be allowed to take them. Arriva in particular used to accept tickets on several routes in South West London travelling to Kent where they used all sorts of crappy vehicles. In the early 2000s they ran a few commercial routes entirely within London (such as the 418) - TfL took over some of them as Arriva decided they weren't viable - they usually saw increased frequencies, earlier starts and later finishes once taken over. Oyster isn't ITSO because it was developed before the ITSO standard was agreed (it also has a lower contact time required). There are ticket machines that can read both types of ticket. Some operators didn't want to accept Oyster, but matched the TfL farescale within London (so charging a little over £1 for a journey). This didn't work financially for them without subsidy, so many operators pulled back their cross-border services - they sometimes duplicated TfL services within London so people weren't willing to pay more. |
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Post by edb325 on May 14, 2021 9:12:39 GMT 1
Back to the original topic of liveries. Andy Burnham has now stated that all vehicles will be yellow and black, to celebrate "The Manchester Bee".
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Post by driver6540 on May 17, 2021 22:14:15 GMT 1
Back to the original topic of liveries. Andy Burnham has now stated that all vehicles will be yellow and black, to celebrate "The Manchester Bee". Or Boddingtons Bitter! |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on May 23, 2021 14:51:57 GMT 1
Back to the original topic of liveries. Andy Burnham has now stated that all vehicles will be yellow and black, to celebrate "The Manchester Bee". He was buzzing at getting re-elected.  |
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WYBS
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Watch-o
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Post by WYBS on Sept 22, 2022 17:25:27 GMT 1
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Sept 22, 2022 17:26:53 GMT 1
Maybe we could rename this thread 'Greater Manchester franchising discussion' or something similar?
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SF07
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Post by SF07 on Dec 23, 2022 17:23:47 GMT 1
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Username
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Post by Username on Dec 23, 2022 23:51:17 GMT 1
Buses across Greater Manchester could all be painted the same colour - just as they were thirty years ago. The iconic orange double-deckers are now a thing of distant memory in the region, but a new bill launched in Parliament on Friday could see the entire fleet of buses across the ten boroughs return to a single shade. Branded the ‘linchpin’ of the devolution of power in Greater Manchester, it’s hoped the Bus Services Bill will be passed before a mayor is elected next May. And those in the know say it would transform our public transport network. Buses are vital to our way of life. Last year 210 million journeys were made by bus, accounting for 79 per cent of public transport trips. www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/could-orange-gm-buses-coming-11365327#ICID=FB-MEN-mainHere are 10 reasons why it could make our future brighter: I like number 11 1. All buses the same colour 2. Passengers get the cheapest deals - even if they jump operators 3. Simplified fares 4 One route planner 5. One timetable planner 6. Getting you to the tram on time 7. Consistent service 8. You could complain properly! 9. We'd see where our money went 10. Back on the buses 11. Okay, there's one extra - The Queen said bus This Bill came up in the Queen’s Speech. We don’t think we’ve ever heard her mention buses before. Another sign it’s worth sitting up and taking notice? I wonder what would happen to Arriva Wythenshawe and Arriva Bolton as they're the only two Arriva depots in Greater Manchester. Would they repaint buses and repaint the sapphire buses? One wonders Also branded buses like Transdev's Witch Way, will these still have wifi and leather seats? Hope that Leeds don't get a mayor. I don't want to see the library go on the 36. Pretty sure cross boundary buses are exempt as it would be odd to see a Bee Network Bus kicking about in Huddersfield, Burnley, Halifax or anywhere else not in Greater Manchester. |
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Post by deerfold on Dec 24, 2022 8:26:51 GMT 1
Pretty sure cross boundary buses are exempt as it would be odd to see a Bee Network Bus kicking about in Huddersfield, Burnley, Halifax or anywhere else not in Greater Manchester. You know you're replying to a post from 6 years ago? |
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Username
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I need to get my eyes checked, I've just seen a Streetlite and my eyes are burning
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Post by Username on Dec 24, 2022 11:57:42 GMT 1
Pretty sure cross boundary buses are exempt as it would be odd to see a Bee Network Bus kicking about in Huddersfield, Burnley, Halifax or anywhere else not in Greater Manchester. You know you're replying to a post from 6 years ago? Oh didn't realise |
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WYBS
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Post by WYBS on Jul 27, 2023 20:01:03 GMT 1
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SF07
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Post by SF07 on Jul 28, 2023 15:53:37 GMT 1
I'm led to believe that the Stagecoach Bee Network repaint will be part of Stagecoach's contract wins in North Manchester, so should move to one of Oldham/Middleton/Queens Road in time for March 2024. First Manchester have also repainted some of the Vantage buses into the yellow Bee Network livery. These services will be taken over by Go North West from September. A lot of the bus stop signs in Manchester have now been changed to the yellow of the Bee Network as well. flickr.com/photos/professor1036/53042211599/In terms of updates (as I'm sure a lot of people will already know), the contracts for part 2 of the Bee Network, which starts in March 2024, have been agreed with Stagecoach taking over the main services in Oldham, Middleton and North Manchester (current First depot at Oldham, Stagecoach depot in Middleton and Go North West depot at Queens Road), while Diamond will run some smaller services in Oldham and First Manchester takes over Rosso's depot in Rochdale and will run the current Rochdale/Bury local services. Stagecoach have got a contract for school services in Bolton/Wigan and are looking to open a new depot around Farnworth/Little Hulton area (existing Wigan depot being taken over by Go-Ahead Group). New tickets will be brought in from September, at the start of the Bee Network operations in Bolton and Wigan, which will see some new combined bus and tram tickets being introduced. The tickets will be valid on all buses in GM plus specific tram zones (so, if you use trams in zones one and two but a bus in Bolton, you will be charged the bus and tram zones 1-2 ticket). GMCA had a Bee Network committee meeting yesterday, where it was revealed that TfGM are now working on student tickets to start from September, along with a Bee Network bus only ticket, which would only be valid on Bee Network buses (therefore, not other operators in GM) but would also be valid on any Bee Network services that travel outside of Greater Manchester, such as the 362 to Chorley (but not on Arriva services 34/320/352/360/375/385/395, Stagecoach services 111/125, Transdev services 1/481/483/X41 or Warrington's Own Buses services 19/22/22A/28/28A/28B in Bolton/Bury/Leigh/Wigan). These tickets will be priced the same as the existing System One/getmethere tickets. It also looks like that the Bee Network will be keeping the existing Diamond SuperSaver weekly tickets until January 2025, valid on use in Salford on services 8, 36, 37 and X39. This means that Bee Network effectively takes on Stagecoach's 38 service for passengers between Walkden, Swinton, Irlams o'th' Heights, Salford and Manchester until Hyde Road depot transfers to the Bee Network in January 2025. All these tickets will be available on the new Bee Network app, which will launch by September and replace the existing getmethere app. tfgm.com/the-bee-network?utm_source=Web&utm_medium=MPU&utm_campaign=Bee+Network+&utm_id=Bee+Network+democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=442&MId=5290democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s28053/13.%20BNC%2020230727%20Delivering%20the%20Bee%20Network%20-%20Fares%20and%20Products.pdf |
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