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Post by northerner on Feb 27, 2016 21:42:10 GMT 1
Todays Tweet from Transdev Keighley is "We're pulling out the stops to bring you a more reliable & quicker 760 from 20 March. More info soon." I may be reading more into the wording than is there but 'pulling out the stops' draws me to one of two conclusions. 1. Sections of the route becoming limited stop although I can only see this being possible at either end of the route, i.e Leeds to Rodley or Keighley to Saltaire or both? or along similar lines 2. With the Keighley to Saltaire route well covered by the Shuttle, maybe running the route along the Aire Valley Road on the main A650 between Keighley and Bingley or Cottingley, although more likley the former as I would imagine the 760 does plenty of business between Bingley, Beckfoot School and the Shipley area. I'm sure all will be revealed soon but anyone any further details or comments on the above? I'd be surprised if it was rerouted away from Bingley as like you say it does provide useful and quite well used links along the Aire Valley. I'm inclined to think it is likely to be a route change in Leeds, as Kirkstall Road and Wellington Street can cause quite severe delays some days. I'd like to see it run via Infirmary Street and Boar Lane in Leeds rather than the Headrow as it would run closer to the train station and Trinity although not sure if this would actually speed things up or cause more issues I'd prefer the 760 to only set down after Saltaire from Keighley, and only pick up as far Saltaire heading towards Keighley as this could easily shave 5 minutes off the running time. And the Shuttles offer a much better passenger experience than the Presidents
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Post by sharksmith on Feb 27, 2016 23:04:38 GMT 1
That's exactly the Leeds route change I was thinking of Infirmary Street & Boar Lane on arriving in Leeds with the current route outbound. It really doesn't make much sense to use the Headrow these days and is obviously a throw back from when it had to access Vicar Lane.
As you say the only way to make the route quicker however has to be some restriction to stops served and your own idea might do the trick although I'm not generally a fan of the stopping a bus at a stop to only pick up/drop off as it puts the driver in an awkward position when challenged.
My plan if sticking to the current route would be limited stop, Keighley Bus Station & Railway Station, Crossflats, Bingley, Beckfoot, Saltaire and then all stops to Kirkstall and then Wellington St, Trinity and then Leeds Bus Station. Same on the reverse apart from the current route out of Leeds.
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Post by northerner on Feb 28, 2016 0:38:40 GMT 1
My plan if sticking to the current route would be limited stop, Keighley Bus Station & Railway Station, Crossflats, Bingley, Beckfoot, Saltaire and then all stops to Kirkstall and then Wellington St, Trinity and then Leeds Bus Station. Same on the reverse apart from the current route out of Leeds. The changes could just be similar to the 36 in that it only affects a couple of peak journeys each way. The 760 does have its reliability issues so anything to improve the situation is to be welcomed. I may be reading too much in to this, but on Transdev Keighley website there is news that the Leeds7 ticket is being extended to Shipley and this represents a £10.50 a week saving over the train. Given that the train takes 12-15 minutes, has excellent reliability and free wifi on most services I can't see Transdev winning this market unless they have some major plans for the Shipley-Leeds section
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Post by sharksmith on Feb 28, 2016 9:42:00 GMT 1
Unfortunately I don't really see a quicker way in and out of Leeds, on the rare occasions I do take the car into Leeds I usually follow the current 760 route home to Shipley and in my car I don't have the use of the bus lanes on Kirkstall Rd. The only other route I ever use to escape the city would be the X6 route using the Stanningley By-Pass and then down to Rodley. The disadvantages to sending buses via this route are numerous though, it misses out a large chunk of the route, can be very busy around Armley and Dawsons Corner and would still have to queue to access Rodley Roundabout whereas I take the little shortcut from the Ring Road to Calverley.
I agree for people in central Shipley the train is a no-brainer but a large amount of 760 Leeds traffic comes from Windhill, Thackley, Idle and Greengates. If you want to catch the train from these areas you have to get to the station first. There's no parking at Shipley on a weekday unless you are there by 7.30am at the latest and, even if there was, it can easily take you twenty minutes queuing on Leeds Road to get the station. I live a mile from the station so it's a 15 minutes walk to arrive 5 minutes early for a train and then 15 mins into Leeds. So you have 35 minutes home to Leeds station, plus onward travel, which is still quicker but getting closer. Add that to new stations at Apperley Bridge and soon Kirkstall Forge slowing some trains down to reduce the difference even further. If every train stopped at Apperley Bridge I could see this station taking custom from the 760 but at the same frequency of two trains an hour I don't think it has the 'turn up and go' appeal that would make people automatically switch from the bus and will only appeal to people who already used Shipley station but live on that side of town.
I think the way to compete is on price which they are already putting into place and quality. The free wi-fi on the train is patchy at best and has limited data also. Some if not all of the current X41 Gemini's being replaced by the 36 buses already have free wi-fi and there are Coastliner Gemini's becoming available soon too. I can see a batch of these buses on the 760 by the end of the year, refurbished to Shuttle standard with comfortable seats, unlimited free wi-fi, USB charging sockets and lower prices which should certainly be enough to retain passengers. If, and it's a big if, they can make the journey time into the city quicker they may then just be able to steal a few rail passengers too.
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Post by northerner on Feb 28, 2016 10:57:13 GMT 1
I agree for people in central Shipley the train is a no-brainer but a large amount of 760 Leeds traffic comes from Windhill, Thackley, Idle and Greengates. If you want to catch the train from these areas you have to get to the station first. There's no parking at Shipley on a weekday unless you are there by 7.30am at the latest and, even if there was, it can easily take you twenty minutes queuing on Leeds Road to get the station. I live a mile from the station so it's a 15 minutes walk to arrive 5 minutes early for a train and then 15 mins into Leeds. So you have 35 minutes home to Leeds station, plus onward travel, which is still quicker but getting closer. Add that to new stations at Apperley Bridge and soon Kirkstall Forge slowing some trains down to reduce the difference even further. If every train stopped at Apperley Bridge I could see this station taking custom from the 760 but at the same frequency of two trains an hour I don't think it has the 'turn up and go' appeal that would make people automatically switch from the bus and will only appeal to people who already used Shipley station but live on that side of town. Apperley Bridge does have a large number of parking spaces and I think benefits from a couple of extra peak calls so I wouldn't be surprised if some people who previously parked at Shipley instead travel from Apperley Bridge. I still think those living in Windhill/Thackley would be quicker heading in to Shipley. The new timetable is now live keighleybus.co.uk/cmsUploads/route/files/760ttweb.pdf The running time between Keighley and Saltaire has been reduced by up to 7 minutes so looks like this is now limited stop. Shipley-Leeds remains at up to 1hour 25 minutes so I think Arriva have nothing to worry about! It also looks like Transdev have failed to attract the service better for commuters. The 40 minute gap from Leeds is still present in the evening peak (1555-1635) and if you live in Greengates and start work in Leeds at 9 you have to get the bus at 0727. Bit of a disappointment really especially as running times seem to have been extended
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Post by sharksmith on Feb 28, 2016 11:25:25 GMT 1
Sadly running times being extended are possibly the only way to address the reliability issues, certainly Leeds Road in Shipley must be a nightmare to schedule. You can wait 5 minutes one day to get into Shipley and then the very next day it can take 20 minutes with no obvious reason. I fortunately don't work in Leeds and only visit occasionally and use the train or Leeds Park & Ride, but....if I did, the price difference would be a very big draw, as you say a few additional peak time journeys would be welcome and that evening gap needs to be looked at.
Looking at the two timetables the regular end to end journeys are almost identical with any time made up between Keighley & Shipley lost between Shipley & Leeds so I'm not sure where the 'more reliable and quicker', claim comes from. Unfortunately the roads and bottlenecks the route has to follow is out of the operators control but I'd rather not have had this particular tweet.
Got me all interested for no apparent reason....unless anyone can convince me different?
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Post by www.buseireann.ie on Feb 28, 2016 11:25:49 GMT 1
Although this new timetable is quicker, the tweet is a bit mis-leading as I was expecting something like 20 to 30 mins off running times not just 7! A bit pointless really as your not going to attract that many extra Keighley to Saltaire passengers just by knocking 7 mins off! Your certainly not going to attract extra through to Leeds custom that's for sure. Would have been much better running it non stop from the end of Rodley (up by Leeds/Bradford Road) to Leeds as well as having this limited stop Keighley to Saltaire section. Running time might have persuaded some to catch it from the Bingley/Keighley areas as well as provided better attraction for Shipley passengers towards Leeds.
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Post by sharksmith on Feb 28, 2016 11:34:20 GMT 1
I assume limited stop at the Keighley end is because the only competition is the train, although I would imagine most passengers might prefer the more luxurious buses on the 662 to the President's on the 760. If they run limited stop from Rodley the only winners will be First with the 670 and 508 picking up the passengers that Transdev currently get. In reality the bus does pretty much run non stop after Leeds/Bradford Road into Leeds anyway. The only way to reduce times by 20/30 minutes would be to run limited stop for the whole route which would make the service unviable I would think. Even then the bus would still be stuck in traffic for long periods.
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Post by northerner on Feb 28, 2016 11:38:18 GMT 1
As disappointing as the timetable is, we don't know what the route change is yet although I'm thinking it is likely to be at the Keighley end now. In the PM peak Keighley bound journeys are actually longer although at least they have got rid of the ridiculous amount of padding between Riddlesden and Keighley. Unfortunately though I don't think the changes are enough to encourage me to re-use the 760 again
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Post by www.buseireann.ie on Feb 28, 2016 12:06:51 GMT 1
You do get odds and sods stopping it between Rodley end and Leeds and with terrible traffic on Kirkstall Road this can all add up to 20 mins extra running, these odds and sods mostly have Metro products which don't give much of a return, especially free passes, you could run non stop via Bramley and use the A647 which is busy at peak times but not that busy elsewhere, unlike Kirkstall Car Park Road which is busy more often and every day of the week!
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Post by Craig on Feb 28, 2016 12:12:17 GMT 1
Traveline journey planner has the answers... 760 to run via Dalton Lane and A650 between Keighley and Crossflatts. Also it looks like buses run non-stop between Bingley town centre and Yorkshire Clinic roundabout. Obviously the 662 can pick up the slack on both stretches of route.
The changes here seem good, I sometimes wonder if certain people on here are living in a fantasy land?
The tweeted claim of "reliability" is because traffic conditions have been taken into account. The "quicker" claim applies to about half of the route (Keighley-Shipley). I fail to see anything misleading about either of those claims.
More improvements would be nice such as extra peak departures, although one already exists in the p.m. peak from Leeds. Sadly resources don't always allow for this but it certainly should be an aspiration. Also it was implied above that Kirkstall Road is non-stop for the 760 anyway; my experience tells me this isn't true and it would be nice to miss these stops out. However it potentially would be a minor but significant revenue loss on the route and would also mean the inter-operator ticketing arrangement would no longer apply to Transdev services.
How on earth would anyone hope that 20-30 minutes would be shaved off the running time? I think 7 mins is quite an achievement! The service has to contend with Leeds city centre, Kirkstall Road, Rodley roundabout, Greengates crossroads and Shipley. I don't know Keighley well but I think that also can build up traffic. Unless Alex plans to swap the Presidents for DeLoreans, I really don't see how any further substantial time saving could ever be hoped for.
And yes of course the train is much faster for direct journeys (if you live close enough to a station) but £10 a week difference is not to be sniffed at. Nicer vehicles would be an even bigger bonus and, whilst I don't expect anything along the lines of the high-spec 36 fleet on the 760, refurbished or newer buses would be welcome and provide extra incentive to travel by bus.
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Post by www.buseireann.ie on Feb 28, 2016 12:33:22 GMT 1
The simple fact is the 760 is too slow at the urban Shipley to Leeds end, even for local journeys from Rodley to Leeds. Transdev would be much better off campaigning for Leeds City Council to introduce a ban on Kirkstall and Burley car owners using their cars for local journeys between Kirkstall and Leeds, you see nothing but cars on all streets in LS4/5, considering many living around there are students, people shouldn't believe all the hype that students are so called poor! Environmentally this country as well as the planet is in a really bad state, I'm not living in a fantasy land, something more radical is needed if we are to achieve getting people out of cars and using buses/trains. Now I know the 760 is aiming to attract train users and not just aim for car users, but getting people off over crowded trains makes train journeys more pleasant for those who want to stick to the train, they are then much less likely to think about using the car. We need radical soloutions if we are to achieve more attraction from the car, not just knocking 7 mins off a tedious journey.
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Post by sharksmith on Feb 28, 2016 13:38:10 GMT 1
The problem regarding this tweet is this, I receive a notification directly to my personal account and it talks about being more reliable and quicker. Now I only ever use the 760 between Shipley and Leeds so I assume my journey is possibly going to be quicker. I certainly don't expect to find my journey will now take longer.
This is the nature of the modern world where Twitter and Facebook are king. What I actually said was that I would prefer not to have a tweet which for me personally may be 50% correct and which is 50% the complete opposite. I would much rather have a tweet sending me to the website for full details of the changes instead of a teaser statement of more to come soon..
I like most right minded individuals can see Transdev are a company on the up, I love the new company wide ticket, have defended the extension to the 762 on here and am looking forward to sampling the 36 but am not a fan of these little teasers that I accept are a part of Twitter culture.
Incidentally I think it would be a big mistake to run non stop between Bingley and the Yorkshire Clinic as there are a lot of schoolchildren at Beckfoot who live in Shipley and are all fare payers. Pleased to see I was right about the route change involving the A650 though.
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Feb 28, 2016 13:47:25 GMT 1
Looks to be slightly better for commuters. The 0907 arrival has been moved to 0855, bear in mind the stop near the business district will be at least 5 mins earlier than that, so people who start at 9am can catch a later bus than currently.
All of North Leeds/North Bradford is congested due to a lack of any bypass, dual carriageway or motorway meaning long distance traffic that is just passing through the area has to use local A roads, there is no short term solution to this.
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Post by northerner on Feb 28, 2016 14:16:43 GMT 1
Traveline journey planner has the answers... 760 to run via Dalton Lane and A650 between Keighley and Crossflatts. Also it looks like buses run non-stop between Bingley town centre and Yorkshire Clinic roundabout. Obviously the 662 can pick up the slack on both stretches of route. The changes here seem good, I sometimes wonder if certain people on here are living in a fantasy land? The tweeted claim of "reliability" is because traffic conditions have been taken into account. The "quicker" claim applies to about half of the route (Keighley-Shipley). I fail to see anything misleading about either of those claims. So any passengers who board along Bradford Road wanting to go to Shipley will now lose their direct link. The last time I used the 760 at peak time was in 2014 and they were always passengers who boarded at Shipley alighting after Crossflatts. Running non stop from Bingley to Cottingley seems a little odd too, for the time it will save not sure it's really worth it especially missing out Beckfoot School. I assumed, rightly or wrongly that the quicker journeys claim would lead to an overall reduction in end to end journey times. I'd say the majority of commuters are from the Leeds end so won't see any journey time improvements, and you could even argue some at the Keighley end will see an increase in journey time if they have to change from 662 to 760 Unfortunately I don't think the 760 can compete with the train from Shipley to Leeds. If price is your only consideration then maybe, but Northern's current performance tends to be around 93-97% on time most days - doubt Transdev can ever match anywhere near that. Take last week as an example, there was the major incident in Shipley on Tuesday and significant congestion around Leeds on Thursday morning leading to the 760 running hourly for a time. Add to that the 1553 from Leeds was cancelled twice creating a gap in departures from 1523-1635 plus the usual carnage that's the Friday peak and you would wonder why anyone would subject themselves to the 760!
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Post by westyorkshirebus on Feb 28, 2016 15:34:00 GMT 1
As keeps being said, not everyone lives next to the station, by the time youve factored in getting to the station, it might be less hassle to catch the bus outside your front door.
Where has this idea suddenly come from, in many threads recently, where of a train is quicker, the bus might as well no exist?
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Post by sharksmith on Feb 28, 2016 15:58:59 GMT 1
As keeps being said, not everyone lives next to the station, by the time youve factored in getting to the station, it might be less hassle to catch the bus outside your front door. Where has this idea suddenly come from, in many threads recently, where of a train is quicker, the bus might as well no exist? Agreed, the 760 provides a vital link between Shipley & Leeds. I think that idea came from First when they cancelled the 650/51 between Bradford & Ilkley.
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Post by sharksmith on Feb 29, 2016 10:07:42 GMT 1
Unfortunately I don't think the 760 can compete with the train from Shipley to Leeds. If price is your only consideration then maybe, but Northern's current performance tends to be around 93-97% on time most days - doubt Transdev can ever match anywhere near that. Take last week as an example, there was the major incident in Shipley on Tuesday and significant congestion around Leeds on Thursday morning leading to the 760 running hourly for a time. Add to that the 1553 from Leeds was cancelled twice creating a gap in departures from 1523-1635 plus the usual carnage that's the Friday peak and you would wonder why anyone would subject themselves to the 760! Oh dear both the Airedale and Wharfedale lines are messed up this morning, everyone back on the 760. One reason why this route is important. The commentators curse strikes again! LOL
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Post by dwarfer1979 on Mar 1, 2016 9:14:16 GMT 1
As keeps being said, not everyone lives next to the station, by the time youve factored in getting to the station, it might be less hassle to catch the bus outside your front door. Where has this idea suddenly come from, in many threads recently, where of a train is quicker, the bus might as well no exist? Agreed, the 760 provides a vital link between Shipley & Leeds. I think that idea came from First when they cancelled the 650/51 between Bradford & Ilkley. It's one of those ideas that comes up frequently often being led by integrationists looking at European practice, Tyne & Wear PTE tried it with the Metro in the late-seventies/early-eighties though it is unpopular with passengers (particularly when the change was at Gateshead which is practically in sight of their destination of Newcastle city centre) and died as soon as deregulation happened where buses reverted to taking paseengers to where they want to go (it was actually broken before deregulation by independent Low Fell Coaches who managed to win the argument through the old regulated traffic system which shows how unpopular it actually was). In many places in Europe buses will only take you to the nearest station where passengers are expected to change onto the train for onward travel, Brits don't like changing (not sure whether Europeans are different in their attitude or simply ignored by the Transport Authorities) and as commercial businesses the bus operators listen to them and provide buses to the places they actually want to go. That said there isn't a clear market, if you are far enough out the travel time saving is sufficient to make many passengers happy to change (and you see it in Tyne & Wear where places like Heworth & Four Lane Ends are further out and get significant interchange and local bus connections - though peak overloading at the later in my experience means I wouldn't bother) but many don't want the hassle & pensioners on their free pass will always want to use the bus for free if possible even where direct trains are much quicker but they have to pay. A bus may not be able to compete on direct station to station times but as others have said most people don't live at the station and with the much more local stops buses offer convenience advantages and you always have all the intermediate traffic between points along the route which is the main business of most bus routes.
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Post by Bradford Traveller on Mar 1, 2016 12:13:28 GMT 1
Re 760. I only use it of an evening and a tad disappointed that there is not speeding up of times in an evening. Is it really 4 minutes slower Thackley-Leeds?
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Post by northerner on Mar 1, 2016 19:33:33 GMT 1
Re 760. I only use it of an evening and a tad disappointed that there is not speeding up of times in an evening. Is it really 4 minutes slower Thackley-Leeds? That would depend on the journey you look at. For example the 1635 from Leeds is currently scheduled at Thackley at 1728, from March 21st it will be 1739. The 1715 is currently timed at Thackley at 1808, this will change to 1820. Unless there is a route change at the Leeds end too there will be a lot of waiting time during half term weeks
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Post by SCH117X on Mar 2, 2016 18:32:38 GMT 1
Todays 1635 from Leeds will be at Thackley at 1734 according to Metro.
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SF07
Forum Member
Posts: 3,216
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Post by SF07 on Mar 3, 2016 19:54:36 GMT 1
PB0004246/88 - T L C TRAVEL LTD, 7 LINTON STREET, BRADFORD, BD4 7EZ Registration Accepted by SN Starting Point: Hardcastle Cragg, Hebden Bridge Finish Point: Widdop Revervoir, Widdop Via: Service Number: 906 Service Type: Normal Stopping/Hail & Ride Effective Date: 27-MAR-2016 Other Details: Easter Sunday 27th March & Easter Monday 28th March then Saturday, Sundays and bank holidays from 30th April until 23rd October 2016 inclusive
PB0000582/41 - ARRIVA YORKSHIRE LTD, 24 BARNSLEY ROAD, WAKEFIELD, WF1 5JX Variation Accepted by SN: Operating between Wakefield and Knottingley given service number 590/145/148/149/516/518 effective from 07-Mar-2016. To amend Timetable.
PB0000582/135 - ARRIVA YORKSHIRE LTD, 24 BARNSLEY ROAD, WAKEFIELD, WF1 5JX Variation Accepted by SN: Operating between Selby and Pontefract given service number 476 effective from 07-Mar-2016. To amend Timetable.
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Post by deerfold on Mar 4, 2016 10:38:20 GMT 1
I wonder if the change to the 760 will help those accessing Dalton Mills where there are an increasing number of new businesses (including one I visit regularly). They'll go from having 6 buses a day to around 36.
It does seem an odd move when last autumn the big change to the 760 improved the frequency with one of the positives being a combined 15-minute service on a Sunday - a chunk of the common route will no longer be common.
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Post by northerner on Mar 4, 2016 21:56:19 GMT 1
It looks like the 760 will be serving Bingley Bypass to Saltaire, although the tweet appears to be inaccurate as according to the timetable Crossflatts is served <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/Jake31804"> jake31804 </a> Hi Jake from Keighley operates via the A650 Aire Valley Trunk Road to Bingley then via Bingley Relief Road.</p>— Transdev Keighley (@keighleybus) <a href="https://twitter.com/keighleybus/status/705486494811693057">3 March 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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